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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0


Beniboybling

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And even if the HK were present, how would it "play the hero" ? By firing wantonly and killing the Exchange boss and maybe one or two assassins before being destroyed?

 

I meant it would kill the assassins. It IS an assassin droid, although they're plenty happy to commit mass killings, their aim isn't exactly lacking.

 

And the HK can obviously use other methods than a blaster to kill a traitor (or soon to be traitor) including gas. We've seen them use it before to kill unsuspecting victims.

Edited by Warren-Stride
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I meant it would kill the assassins. It IS an assassin droid, although they're plenty happy to commit mass killings, their aim isn't exactly lacking.

 

And the HK can obviously use other methods than a blaster to kill a traitor (or soon to be traitor) including gas. We've seen them use it before to kill unsuspecting victims.

 

I'm not saying it couldn't kill the boss, or an assassin or two if they were in the room. However, reconnaissance will reveal the presence of the HK droids, so they will be sacrificing the initiative.

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But unless someone has an example of when these Sith Assassins have actually done anything, they'll remain just a myth. G0-T0 can easily claim that any death caused by the Sith Assassins was actually just him eliminating someone who joined Traya's side. Traya isn't exactly a propanganda machine. G0-T0 knows how to rule a crime syndicate.
This, I'm afraid, will either backfire or simply fail. Allow me to explain.

 

Traya raids every other Exchange base on Nar Shaddaa and as far as the Exchange are aware, slaughters everybody inside indiscriminately. This includes Ubese assassins, Jekk'Jekk Tarr patrons, smugglers & bounty hunters, generic Exchange mercenaries etc. G0-T0 then announces that he was responsible, claiming they betrayed the Exchange to G0-T0. There are two possible outcomes of this:

 

 

  1. Backfire: everyone thinks G0-T0 has gone completely insane with paranoia, as he has just wiped out a majority of his own men, to avoid sharing the same fate they jump ship and get and far away from Nar Shaddaa as possible.
     
     
  2. Fail: everyone sees through G0-T0's obvious attempt to pin the acts of the Sith on G0-T0, anyone investigating the scene might notice the lightsaber/force pike marks on bodies and walls, or simply notice the place has been converted into a Sith base. Realizing fighting the Sith is tantamount to suicide, they jump ship and get as far away from Nar Shaddaa as possible.

 

Either way, the outcome is the remaining Exchange members flee Nar Shaddaa and get as far away from G0-T0 and the Sith as possible, hoping they'll be safe from harm.

 

However, Warren's point about HK's disguising themselves as protocol droids is a good one. However it depends of G0-T0 expecting Traya to attempt to convert his powerbase. But what we should be considering is how much use Traya can actually get out of having someone like Visquis as her pawn. Let's remember G0-T0 has an extensive intelligence network and no doubt has spies all over his bases. He'll know if his underlings betray him, which eliminates the possibility of Traya using them to get to G0-T0. So what use will they be?

 

And expanding on a bombing run on Korriban: G0-T0 simply doesn't possess the capablities to pull this off effectively, and even if he did reduce the place to rubble Traya would likely survive. I mean just look at Darth Malgus...

 

So I propose a different course of action: invade the Academy, plant a powerful explosive device(s) inside and vaporise the place, as long as Traya doesn't escape she would die in the explosion. I suggest:

 

Baradium bombs: made from a highly explosive and volatile material used in thermal detonators, such a device was used during the Cold War by the Voss-Ka in an attempt to destroy the entire capital city of Voss-Ka. Highly illegal and common in the underworld. I assume it would be roughly half the size of a HK unit.

 

One of these would be enough the vaporize the entire Sith Academy. A cloaked HK unit might be able to smuggle one of these into the Academy amongst the battle and detonate it.

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Traya raids every other Exchange base on Nar Shaddaa and as far as the Exchange are aware, slaughters everybody inside indiscriminately. This includes Ubese assassins, Jekk'Jekk Tarr patrons, smugglers & bounty hunters, generic Exchange mercenaries etc. G0-T0 then announces that he was responsible, claiming they betrayed the Exchange to G0-T0. There are two possible outcomes of this:[/Quote]Well okay, I was saying that in responce to them being killed off one by one. Obviously if everyone died at the same time it wouldn't work. :rolleyes:

 

But what we should be considering is how much use Traya can actually get out of having someone like Visquis as her pawn. So what use will they be?[/Quote]This is what I meant when I said, "I understand the argument, I just don't understand the impact." If Traya does get these people to go against G0-T0, what damage can they do?

 

And expanding on a bombing run on Korriban: G0-T0 simply doesn't possess the capablities to pull this off effectively, and even if he did reduce the place to rubble Traya would likely survive. I mean just look at Darth Malgus...
This could still work. Actually, I was playing through Tatooine in SWTOR ealier today, and a Czerka guy does pretty much what I am suggesting. He says he has a ship 2 kilometers above this guy's house, and he's about to rain turbolasers on it and (here's the ironic part) "drop droids on your heads." G0-T0 could pretty much do the same thing. Erode what little structure the Academy has left while sending in HKs to finish the job, probably with the explosives you mention in this part...

 

So I propose a different course of action: invade the Academy, plant a powerful explosive device(s) inside and vaporise the place, as long as Traya doesn't escape she would die in the explosion. I suggest:

 

Baradium bombs: made from a highly explosive and volatile material used in thermal detonators, such a device was used during the Cold War by the Voss-Ka in an attempt to destroy the entire capital city of Voss-Ka. Highly illegal and common in the underworld. I assume it would be roughly half the size of a HK unit.

 

One of these would be enough the vaporize the entire Sith Academy. A cloaked HK unit might be able to smuggle one of these into the Academy amongst the battle and detonate it.

 

They wouldn't even really have to go inside the academy. I mean, sure, it would have a greater effect. But just landing on top of it and setting one of those off would probably do the trick. Or, that series of tunnels that we see run right next to/under the Academy, send HKs in there to kill the wildlife and then set the bomb off under the academy. You don't even have to make it inside.

Edited by Warren-Stride
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[/color]This could still work. Actually, I was playing through Tatooine in SWTOR ealier today, and a Czerka guy does pretty much what I am suggesting. He says he has a ship 2 kilometers above this guy's house, and he's about to rain turbolasers on it and (here's the ironic part) "drop droids on your heads." G0-T0 could pretty much do the same thing. Erode what little structure the Academy has left while sending in HKs to finish the job, probably with the explosives you mention in this part...

Ah yes, the Smuggler storyline. Gotta love Czerka. :D

 

Now this could work, I mean look at it. Pretty flat, low roofed. Not much stone to tunnel through. G0-T0 could drop some transport pods from above and smash through the roof, making the invasion a lot easier, then just drop a bomb inside and BOOM!

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The Black Sun and the Exchange are entirely different organisations. Why? Because the Black Sun had fleets, as I'm sure Warren will inform you, whereas the Exchange did not. If Xizor had fleets, he must have had suppliers. This is why Xizor was able to buy himself additional fleets, because he had affiliations with shipbuilders whereas G0-T0 and the Exchange do not. Without affiliations to the combatants, these shipyards become regarded as 'prominent powers/outside help' which are excluded under the rules of the Kaggath. However concerning Traya, Nihilus was a member of the Triumvirate, so he fleets were also. And in this Kaggath, Traya commands the forces of the Triumvirate, she therefore commands the fleets. Hope this clears up the confusion.

 

If G0-T0 finds a way to deal with the fleet, then yes, a blockade is possible. But so far, he has not found a way to deal with the fleet.

 

Oh that's actually rather easy, G0-T0 uses a computer Virus that vents all the atmosphere on the ships. Then has HK units search the ships from stem to stern and shoot every organic on board in the head for good measure. I don't think it's likely that they can use stealth effectively while in space suits. He's a droid, it would be child's play for him to create a computer virus and piggyback the virus on a transmission in order to cause havoc in Traya's sith fleet.

 

Tada, G0-T0 now has some capital ships.

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Oh that's actually rather easy, G0-T0 uses a computer Virus that vents all the atmosphere on the ships. Then has HK units search the ships from stem to stern and shoot every organic on board in the head for good measure. I don't think it's likely that they can use stealth effectively while in space suits. He's a droid, it would be child's play for him to create a computer virus and piggyback the virus on a transmission in order to cause havoc in Traya's sith fleet.

 

Tada, G0-T0 now has some capital ships.

While downloading a computer virus onto Traya's ships would work, you can't 'piggyback' viruses on transmissions. It doesn't work like that and we have no evidence to suggest it does. Unless he can get to a transceiver or get inside the ship its not going to work. And this will be difficult given the fact G0-T0 only has one stealthed ship.

 

Its also based on the assumption that Traya will be relaying transmissions between her forces, and given the electromagnetic field surrounding Malachor V any forms of electronic communications would be impossible. Instead Traya would likely communicate with her forces telepathically as she did with the Exile and Atris, communications that would be impossible to detect.

 

P.S. Just because G0-T0 is a droid doesn't mean he is suddenly an expert concerning all fields of technology.:jawa_wink:

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IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: G0-T0 has the Exchange cell on Telos IV and all its assets in his powerbase.

 

Reason: it seems I overlooked the fact that Loppak Slusk worked for G0-T0 and was instructed by him to set up an Exchange cell on Telos IV - therefore this cell is a part of G0-T0's powerbase. That is all.

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IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: G0-T0 has the Exchange cell on Telos IV and all its assets in his powerbase.

 

Reason: it seems I overlooked the fact that Loppak Slusk worked for G0-T0 and was instructed by him to set up an Exchange cell on Telos IV - therefore this cell is a part of G0-T0's powerbase. That is all.

 

Huh. Imagine that.

 

I'm assuming Luxa doesn't exist?

Edited by Warren-Stride
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P.S. Just because G0-T0 is a droid doesn't mean he is suddenly an expert concerning all fields of technology.:jawa_wink:

 

I know people are going to say this is unfair and all that, but it's kinda what droids do. G0-T0 is really advanced. Capable of free and complex thought, and innovative at that. He definately wasn't designed to have a holo-projector, or make a fake human persona for himself. But he put his mind to it and BAM! new ability.

 

Droids get upgrades all the time. He may not be an expert now, but it's in his nature to adapt (as we see through KotOR II). And as someone who specializes in droids, I'm sure he has the parts and tools nessesary to increase his technological abilities.

 

And if not, he does have other droids mentioned in G0-T0's droid army. I'm sure they're plenty well equipped to do most thing technological.

Edited by Warren-Stride
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IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: G0-T0 has the Exchange cell on Telos IV and all its assets in his powerbase.

 

Reason: it seems I overlooked the fact that Loppak Slusk worked for G0-T0 and was instructed by him to set up an Exchange cell on Telos IV - therefore this cell is a part of G0-T0's powerbase. That is all.

 

Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus were under Traya's command at this moment in her lifetime, does she get them too?

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Huh. Imagine that.

 

I'm assuming Luxa doesn't exist?

No, Luxa does exist, as do all of G0-T0's underlings. Seeing as the basically make up his entire command structure and compared to his own abilities, are pretty inferior.

Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus were under Traya's command at this moment in her lifetime, does she get them too?
This is how the rule works: no allies or prominent powers. A prominent power is any organisation of decent size/influence that is not or has never been affliated with any of the combatants e.g. the Hutt Cartel.

 

An ally is defined in relation to the combatant themselves, if the ally in question (which has to be an individual) has abilities close to, the same as, or stronger than the combatant in any fields, then they are banned. In that sense, Hanharr, the Twins Suns, Sion and Nihilus are banned.

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No, Luxa does exist, as do all of G0-T0's underlings. Seeing as the basically make up his entire command structure and compared to his own abilities, are pretty inferior.

This is how the rule works: no allies or prominent powers. A prominent power is any organisation of decent size/influence that is not or has never been affliated with any of the combatants e.g. the Hutt Cartel.

 

An ally is defined in relation to the combatant themselves, if the ally in question (which has to be an individual) has abilities close to, the same as, or stronger than the combatant in any fields, then they are banned. In that sense, Hanharr, the Twins Suns, Sion and Nihilus are banned.

 

But she has the fleet right?

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Traya could also telepathically communicate with G0-T0's Exchange bosses, sending them messages and warnings, planting doubts in their heads that G0-T0 has no way to detect. This would work around him putting HK-50s in their bases, since now Traya can use their presence to create paranoia.

 

Furthermore, if they're posing as protocol droids, they'll be unarmed when the assassins strike. So they would probably be cut down immediately, since the assassins would know to take them out before they were able to activate any hidden weapons systems or signal G0-T0.

 

On the matter of Traya's fleet, there still is no way for G0-T0 to infiltrate or otherwise compromise Traya's fleet, so all the wishful thinking concerning G0-T0's easy victories by just blasting Korriban, etc. are baseless.

 

In fact, if Traya does have to retreat from Malachor, she can not only ensure that G0-T0 suffers immense casualties reaching the MSG/attacking the Academy, but can proceed fortify the Sith Academy on Korriban quite well. There were all sorts of old defenses that could be activated there, from anti-air turbolasers to gas traps and native species in the tombs which would impede any kind of search for Traya's troops. A game of cat and mouse could wear down any droids/organics G0-T0 sent to search the tombs for Traya.

 

As for dropping orbital pods through the Academy roof, it's far more likely that they'll just die when they splatter against the solid rock. It's comically thick, on the scale of an ancient pyramid. The troops in the drop pods who managed to survive would just be stranded on top of a rock mesa, waiting to get strafed and killed by Sith fighters who would follow the drop pods down to clean up landing crews/survivors.

 

No amphibious (in this case orbital) operation can have any hope at success without air/sea (in this case space) superiority. This is for the obvious reason that even if they sneak into orbit and jump to the surface, the Sith will tear them apart with air support, and from their entrenched positions in the tunnels and tombs. Just crossing your fingers and hoping the guys with the baradium bomb reach their target is no plan at all. And again, Traya will likely not be in the Academy with her troops, but rather sneaking around on Nar Shaddaa tearing apart G0-T0's powerbase.

 

This ties back into G0-T0 having a poor understanding of Force users, since he will be maximizing his chances of survival by hiding, he will assume that Traya is likewise maximizing her safety by being in her well-guarded bases. However, since he doesn't know the limits of the Force, Traya will be able to use her extensive skills at being unseen to hide in the shadows of Nar Shaddaa and pick apart his powerbase while his troops are busy dying at Malachor and Korriban.

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Traya could also telepathically communicate with G0-T0's Exchange bosses, sending them messages and warnings, planting doubts in their heads that G0-T0 has no way to detect. This would work around him putting HK-50s in their bases, since now Traya can use their presence to create paranoia.
It's notoriously difficult to communicate telepathically with non-Force users, and practically impossible over long distances. She also has too know them and be aware of their presence.
Furthermore, if they're posing as protocol droids, they'll be unarmed when the assassins strike. So they would probably be cut down immediately, since the assassins would know to take them out before they were able to activate any hidden weapons systems or signal G0-T0.
The HKs are far from unarmed without blaster weapons. Nor will they be going for a straight up kill, they'll most likely sabotage some systems/gas the place to ensure everyone is killed. The fact that they can move indiscriminately throughout any Exchange base makes this easy. Edited by Beniboybling
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It's notoriously difficult to communicate telepathically with non-Force users, and practically impossible over long distances. She also has too know them and be aware of their presence.

Traya is remarkably skilled at invading the minds of others and manipulating them, extracting their secrets. She could simply do this in person after her scouts have looked the area over.

 

 

The HKs are far from unarmed without blaster weapons. Nor will they be going for a straight up kill, they'll most likely sabotage some systems/gas the place to ensure everyone is killed. The fact that they can move indiscriminately throughout any Exchange base makes this easy.

 

Please, explain how they are going to simultaneously pose as protocol droids and retain their armaments.

 

And how are they going to gas the whole place when Traya's assassins are destroying the droids as a prelude to co-opting the Exchange?

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Traya is remarkably skilled at invading the minds of others and manipulating them, extracting their secrets. She could simply do this in person after her scouts have looked the area over.

In person, she could achieve it, but then I'm not sure it would be worth it...

[Please, explain how they are going to simultaneously pose as protocol droids and retain their armaments.

 

And how are they going to gas the whole place when Traya's assassins are destroying the droids as a prelude to co-opting the Exchange?

Like I said, they have armaments other than simply blaster weapons. There whole body is a weapon, they've got cluster rockets, flamethrowers, carbon projectors etc. But either way, they'll sabotage the base instead. But I'm confused, why would Traya destroy the droids which she has no reason to believe is anything other than a harmless protocol droid?

 

P.S. I think the best way for Traya to destroy G0-T0 is through bait, but what that would be I don't know.

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Beni, since this is a long thread (and I'm lazy:D) would you mind putting all the scenarios of Traya killing G0-T0, and G0-T0 killing Traya in one post, simply to allow people to see the scenarios and then rebuttal them? It would make things far easier. Just maybe say the scenario, and then a quick blurb about how the person would go about killing the opponent. Make it real simple.

 

Thanks in advance-

 

Canino- G0-T0's personal assassin

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While downloading a computer virus onto Traya's ships would work, you can't 'piggyback' viruses on transmissions. It doesn't work like that and we have no evidence to suggest it does. Unless he can get to a transceiver or get inside the ship its not going to work. And this will be difficult given the fact G0-T0 only has one stealthed ship.

 

Its also based on the assumption that Traya will be relaying transmissions between her forces, and given the electromagnetic field surrounding Malachor V any forms of electronic communications would be impossible. Instead Traya would likely communicate with her forces telepathically as she did with the Exile and Atris, communications that would be impossible to detect.

 

P.S. Just because G0-T0 is a droid doesn't mean he is suddenly an expert concerning all fields of technology.:jawa_wink:

Uh there is a flaw in your argument.

  1. Not all of Traya's forces were force sensitive, so standard communications would necessary.
  2. G0-T0 specialized in Computer Slicing, bypassing security systems, and repair (cybertech); chances are he'd know how to make a computer virus
  3. If the communications systems is hooked up to the main computer for those ships, he can use a comm signal to insert the virus (the transmissions concerning Friend/Foe identification could also theoretically be a way to access the computer remotely), or he could also have some droids get aboard those vessels and upload the virus into the ship's computer.

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I have a thought ofr destroying the academy on Korriban- a virus.

 

Alright, so the academy was abonded in the time of Traya, using only computer terminals to teach the students and the academy was actually automated. From wookiepedia~

Surik encountered an academy totally different than Revan had during his Star Forge quest: due to lack of Sith teachers, the academy had been completely automated, with students relying on computers for basic training.
We also have the definition of automated,
1. To convert to automatic operation: automate a factory.

2. To control or operate by automation.

from thefreedictionary.com. Now, automation means
Automation is the use of machines, control systems and information technologies to optimize productivity in the production of goods and delivery of services.
from wikipedia.

 

So, with this necessity on computers, G0-T0 could send multiple droids from his army (astromech droids) to Korriban that have been loaded with a virus. These droids could sneak into the academy (perhaps during a fake battle, or simply sneak in with stealth) and become fake maintenance droids. Now the droids could put the virus in the terminals and boom- G0-T0 has control over much of the academy. He could use propaganda against low ranking students, destroy any defense that are attached to the terminals, spy on Traya and more.

 

Traya would never suspect astromech droids (which would be necessary in an automated academy) to be sabotaging the academy because of her arrogance and underestimation of droids.

 

You could also use a variation of this plan to take over the ships of Traya's fleet (perhaps not all of the ships; board the droids when the ships refuel)

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I have a thought of destroying the academy on Korriban- a virus.

 

Alright, so the academy was abandoned in the time of Traya, using only computer terminals to teach the students and the academy was actually automated.

I'm afraid this argument is fatally flawed because, as you said, the academy is abandoned. At this point it is no longer teaching students, and no longer receiving any kind of maintenance. Not that G0-T0 could do much damage, release some hungry tukata, that's about it. The academy was completely automated, but a thing that ancient doesn't have many automated systems.
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Uh there is a flaw in your argument.

  1. Not all of Traya's forces were force sensitive, so standard communications would necessary.
  2. G0-T0 specialized in Computer Slicing, bypassing security systems, and repair (cybertech); chances are he'd know how to make a computer virus
  3. If the communications systems is hooked up to the main computer for those ships, he can use a comm signal to insert the virus (the transmissions concerning Friend/Foe identification could also theoretically be a way to access the computer remotely), or he could also have some droids get aboard those vessels and upload the virus into the ship's computer.

Again, that's not possible. Viruses can't be inserted via short-range comm channels, they are not designed to transmit that kind or that much information. Nor do we have evidence of it happening in the Star Wars universe - we can't start making stuff up. It is possible it could be sent over sub-space trancievers or the HoloNet, but Traya will only be using ship-to-ship communication. If any at all.

 

So the only way to download the virus is by boarding the ship, granted a stealthed vessel could deploy some stealthed HK units to download the virus. But as soon as one ship fails, the other ships will destroy it. Sure G0-T0 could rinse and repeat, but stealth tech is very expensive and Traya will soon get wise to his tricks, shutdown all the ships systems so they cannot be hacked.

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Beni, since this is a long thread (and I'm lazy:D) would you mind putting all the scenarios of Traya killing G0-T0, and G0-T0 killing Traya in one post, simply to allow people to see the scenarios and then rebuttal them? It would make things far easier. Just maybe say the scenario, and then a quick blurb about how the person would go about killing the opponent. Make it real simple.

 

Thanks in advance-

 

Canino- G0-T0's personal assassin

This is just it, despite having debated for over 50 pages, I have yet to come across a single death argument that bears even the slightest weight. :(

 

For example, I realise the Korriban argument simply won't work. Why? Because Traya will never go to Korriban. Atfer getting word that a stealthed ship is inbound Traya isn't just going to abadon her academy and let G0-T0 blow it up, she'll set a trap. E.g. spread sith interceptors across the debris field and have them shutdown and drift. As soon as G0-T0's stealthed ship shoots the pods nearby fighters will reactivate and fire on the source. Ending the whole operation.

 

P.S. This will not result in the destruction of G0-T0's yacht, despite what LadyKulax said it was G0-T0 who upgraded his yacht with a stygium-stealth generator at the Nar Shaddaa shipyards. He could do this again, but with another vessel.

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