Does anyone else wish there was either different or more options when it comes to dealing with Theron at the end?

 

My Sith Warrior is someone who tries to judge people based on their loyalty. As such, it seems foolish to kill a guy who risked his life to help you. But at the same time, this Wrath was hardly going to welcome an unreliable spy who deceived him back into the Alliance. Banishing him seemed like the best option for this character, but the dialogue here is all about being sad and saying "Your betrayal seemed too real."

 

It's not a very Sithy thing to say. I would think it would have been much better to reject him on the basis of being unreliable or angry at his failure to stop the Order from destroying your fleet, instead of just "you hurt my feelings" or "you're too good at being a spy."

 

In the past, I've had problems with some of the dialogue options being too Sithy for my Jedi characters and now there are options that are not Sithy enough for my Sith characters.

 

I think this is another sign that some decisions need three dialogue options, even if there are just two choices.

 

I know they must have very limited resources here, but it's only one line of dialogue. And they did manage to give us three choices in dealing with Vinn, even though it was immediately prior to this one.

I agree. Speaking from my own perspective, I really would've liked an option that expresses displeasure with Theron's insubordinate and quite frankly idiotically short-sighted actions without an execution sentence, employment termination (which, depending on your character, might make him HAPPIER) or total forgiveness.

 

Theron snitches on the Order of Zildrog, claiming that Gemini 16 "sees all"... er, how, exactly? Can she read minds? Does she record information, say, written down on a piece of low-tech *paper* and then destroyed? I don't buy at all that Theron couldn't have thought of SOME way to inform your character of what's what - when he knew enough to get in visual contact/PERSONAL contact with the ringleader Vinn Atrius himself! It's criminally negligent of Theron, and such acts have consequences both personally with the PC and politically for the Alliance.

 

If I had full control over my character, I wouldn't have killed Theron, but instead would've have sentenced him to a jail cell to cool his heels while he thinks about why disobeying the chain of command and playing with the emotions of, for all intents and purposes, the superior officer to END all superior officers (even more egregious if he's romancing said character) is not only a bad idea, but a phenomenally stupid one as well. That way, we retain potential usefulness of a person with his talents to be deployed when necessary and the Alliance Commander (God how I despise that title) gets a reputation for high-handed mercy - instead of looking weak and easily led-around, if agents can run off without obeying the chain of command to do as they please, reasons be damned.

 

Right next to Saresh, for added irony.

 

How many Alliance personnel have been wasted in this mad goose chase all over the galaxy? Would the Order of Zildrog even BE a threat were it not for Theron feeding them the star map on Copero? Aren't all Gemini droids controlled by Gemini Prime, who is STILL in our possession, after Vaylin forcibly reset the whole fleet?

 

Just bugs me.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Iadro

Does Star Wars even HAVE paper? Seriously, I can't remember any point where someone writes a note on paper. But it would make sense to, especially in a high tech environment since the only way to intercept the message would be to physically grab it.

 

There are a lot of holes in this plot as well, in addition to your dialog problem. I can't figure out what the crystals were for (unless they were needed as a power source to jump start the world eating robot that had been asleep for thousands of years). I also don't get why he was on Copero in the first place. If the Gemini droid was all-knowing, why didn't she know where Zildrog was already? All I can come up with is that he was getting ahold of the map for you. Yes, he made a show of blowing it up, but if he had actually destroyed it, there would have been no bringing it back. My thought here is that he was luring you in to find it so that when he sent you the coordinates, you'd be more likely to believe him and show up to stop the bad guys.

 

As to dealing with him, I do know that spies IRL often go to extreme measures to accomplish their goals. Even going so far as to seemingly turn on their side to do it. Some are under for years before it finally comes to light that they were working for their side all along, so I can give him that. A lot of times they do have to have freedom to operate in order to be truly effective at their jobs.

 

Just my two sense

it's kinda funny . When you send Jorgan and Kaliyo on that mission and lose contact with them . I remember picking Kaliyo , so Jorgan end up going against my order . Theron claim that if he was part of the repb that is a high offence . court Martial he said .

 

And here he does worse , and everyone goes 'Oh he is a spy! Thats what they do!' .

 

I'm fine with him being a spy . I get the snooping around and all . But everyone should be held accountable if there are repercussion .

 

When you think about it , Unless you are a fan and romancing Theron . This chapter doesn't give you squat !

 

You lose the gravestone , the eternal fleet and Odessen almost got blown to bit . You fight a stupid machine (again) , some idiot with a pony tail and Gemini who I though was dead . But hey..it's great apparently!

 

Oh and we lose some characters along the way . Yup it's great !

Well said, although here are my counter-arguments:

 

Does Star Wars even HAVE paper? Seriously, I can't remember any point where someone writes a note on paper. But it would make sense to, especially in a high tech environment since the only way to intercept the message would be to physically grab it.

 

If there are trees, you can make paper. What else is Odessen covered in besides preachy force ghosts/ex-jedi grandmasters? It doesn't take a genius to mulch and press paper. Indifferent-quality paper, perhaps. But serviceable enough to pass on a message? Anyone can do it!

 

As to dealing with him, I do know that spies IRL often go to extreme measures to accomplish their goals. Even going so far as to seemingly turn on their side to do it. Some are under for years before it finally comes to light that they were working for their side all along, so I can give him that. A lot of times they do have to have freedom to operate in order to be truly effective at their jobs.

 

Even spies of that rank get their orders from higher up. Example - the Imperial Agent storyline, which lays out a wonderfully detailed and exacting chain of command, even (especially!) when your agent is ordered to pretend to betray the Empire. You get your orders from Keeper, are monitored by Watcher Two, who are both monitored by the Dark Council. When a certain code phrase come in, you receive orders and instruction from the Republic SIS structure (and secretly, the Star Cabal).

 

Theron runs off half-cocked because he thinks you're too weak to handle the Order of Zildrog...before throwing you right at the Order of Zildrog at their full strength entrenched with their own private army with their revived machine-god.

 

Um, what?

 

Either he's a criminal idiot, or willfully blind, obsessed with playing at spycraft and looking clever over giving your character the respect due his immediate platonic superior, or loving partner. Neither looks good for someone you want to trust in a working capacity, or even have a healthy relationship with.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Iadro

Regarding paper -- I remember reading Star Wars lore is kind of famous because of its lack of paper, but then, I think I read that on "Darths and Droids" so it's probably should be taken with a grain of salt....'sides, Inquisitor's story on Voss absolutely involves something that looks like paper or parchment (the red Sith force insensitive lady rummages through what looks some papers), so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As for Theron's super spy business, there's also this little matter of him thinking you can survive the train crash with just Lana possibly helping you, but not believing you could take on the Zildo cult with your full power base backing you up, which is a little contradictory and does not flatter either Theron's or his writers' (you choose) mental faculties.

Honestly I'm fine with all options although I wouldn't have minded a "Jail" option, but then again we don't have the same option with Arcann, it's either save or let him die and Theron at least can be kicked out of the Alliance if you save him. As for GEMINI 16 being able to spy on The Alliance, this is just a conjecture but maybe she found a backdoor into the Eternal Throne or Fleet? Or some kind of Alliance communication hub? At any rate Star Wars has paper, some Sith tomes are written in it and even the Book of the Sith in-lore is a book and not a Holocron or Datacron, but this is just like Theron to go off on some stupid quest that might get himself killed, I guess now we know how his SIS Director must've felt. Edited May 8, 2018 by FlameYOL

How many Alliance personnel have been wasted in this mad goose chase all over the galaxy? Would the Order of Zildrog even BE a threat were it not for Theron feeding them the star map on Copero? Aren't all Gemini droids controlled by Gemini Prime, who is STILL in our possession, after Vaylin forcibly reset the whole fleet?

 

Just bugs me.

 

Yeah some of that is a little hard to understand. But I think the the implication was that Theron realized they were going to find out what they needed on their own and decided to join the and try to slow the down. I think we only learn about the Order in the first place from him. If we weren't chasing down Theron, we would wouldn't even have gone to Copero and learned about the map.

 

I'm not saying he necessarily made the right choice here, but there did seem to be a method to his madness.

Honestly the only dialogue choice I thought was missing was when Lana asked if you wanted to support the Empire or Republic, I was really, really hoping for a button that said "heck with both of 'em". There's barely even a difference any more, they're both full of rank opportunists who aren't worth associating with.

 

I really just want to take my new wife and our spy buddy and become a pirate. (Actually, that sounds like a great setup for a sitcom...)

Regarding paper -- I remember reading Star Wars lore is kind of famous because of its lack of paper, but then, I think I read that on "Darths and Droids" so it's probably should be taken with a grain of salt....'sides, Inquisitor's story on Voss absolutely involves something that looks like paper or parchment (the red Sith force insensitive lady rummages through what looks some papers), so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

There's also papers scattered all over the place in the safe-house on Rishi.

I've seen paper laying around in warehouses and locations we've visited in the past. Also, while it takes place thousands of years later, when Rey finds the 'original Jedi texts' on the island with Luke they're actual books with pages so, yeah.

The "Revan" novel also makes mentions of actual books. I just think it's a convenience thing...just like the direction we're going. I can't remember the last time I bought an actual paper book. Edited May 9, 2018 by Dracofish

Well said, although here are my counter-arguments:

 

 

 

If there are trees, you can make paper. What else is Odessen covered in besides preachy force ghosts/ex-jedi grandmasters? It doesn't take a genius to mulch and press paper. Indifferent-quality paper, perhaps. But serviceable enough to pass on a message? Anyone can do it!

 

 

 

Even spies of that rank get their orders from higher up. Example - the Imperial Agent storyline, which lays out a wonderfully detailed and exacting chain of command, even (especially!) when your agent is ordered to pretend to betray the Empire. You get your orders from Keeper, are monitored by Watcher Two, who are both monitored by the Dark Council. When a certain code phrase come in, you receive orders and instruction from the Republic SIS structure (and secretly, the Star Cabal).

 

Theron runs off half-cocked because he thinks you're too weak to handle the Order of Zildrog...before throwing you right at the Order of Zildrog at their full strength entrenched with their own private army with their revived machine-god.

 

Um, what?

 

Either he's a criminal idiot, or willfully blind, obsessed with playing at spycraft and looking clever over giving your character the respect due his immediate platonic superior, or loving partner. Neither looks good for someone you want to trust in a working capacity, or even have a healthy relationship with.

 

??? The whole *point* of act 3 of the agent story is the PC going awol because the Star Cabal would crush them if they did it officially. (Heck they already did considering Imperial's Intelligence's dissolution). Yes Keeper and Watcher Two are involved but Keeper himself tells you he's not your superior anymore and you were ordered to drop it yet continue. Like if anyone should understand why Theron did what he did it's the agent. This can ultimately reach its super conclusion with the PC going off the books to do their job without unnecessary interference. The main difference is Theron couldn't just stay with the alliance because he needed to fake his falling out.

 

(The main issue there is how the damn bot can hear everything. That is such an reach. Or why he didn't just destroy the map).

 

Or there was an omniscient bot that was eavesdropping and he couldn't tell you without her knowing. (Now if you think the bot is stupid I agree but in that stupid scenario there really weren't many options).

Edited June 16, 2018 by Raynezazki

(The main issue there is how the damn bot can hear everything. That is such an reach. Or why he didn't just destroy the map).

 

Or there was an omniscient bot that was eavesdropping and he couldn't tell you without her knowing. (Now if you think the bot is stupid I agree but in that stupid scenario there really weren't many options).

 

That does kind of irritate me. Like, they don't even bother to come up with a vaguely plausible excuse, they're just like "eh, the droid did it". Of course, it's not like they bother to explain anything else about her so whatever.

That does kind of irritate me. Like, they don't even bother to come up with a vaguely plausible excuse, they're just like "eh, the droid did it". Of course, it's not like they bother to explain anything else about her so whatever.

 

I think she was the Gemini that flew off to see the stars, landed on Hoth, etc. Hylo sends a mail about that. However, when Vaylin reactivated the Geminis to obey her, why didn't this particular one fall in line? And Scorpio knew about her so if you didn't kill her then why not give some information to the commander. Scorpio is about seeing what the commander will do in certain situations so I thought that could have been an opportunity. We could have done our own digging instead of chasing Theron around. And that blasted map -- I really felt like that whole Copero story made no sense at all.

 

I really had hoped that we would have got more than a 7 second explanation on why he betrayed us to begin with. Now I have to make up my own story that we got back to Odesson and he told me everything - off camera...

I think she was the Gemini that flew off to see the stars, landed on Hoth, etc. Hylo sends a mail about that. However, when Vaylin reactivated the Geminis to obey her, why didn't this particular one fall in line? And Scorpio knew about her so if you didn't kill her then why not give some information to the commander. Scorpio is about seeing what the commander will do in certain situations so I thought that could have been an opportunity. We could have done our own digging instead of chasing Theron around. And that blasted map -- I really felt like that whole Copero story made no sense at all.

 

I really had hoped that we would have got more than a 7 second explanation on why he betrayed us to begin with. Now I have to make up my own story that we got back to Odesson and he told me everything - off camera...

 

If I recall she cut herself off from the GEMINI hive mind, I think before Vaylin forcefully controlled them again, it's been a few months since I've ran the flashpoint but I'm pretty sure she cut herself from the hive mind giving her independence, although she still considered the fleet a threat to her freedom and mentions she can still feel her sisters bound, so it's likely we could manually force her to be controlled which is why she was hell bent on destroying us.

I think she was the Gemini that flew off to see the stars, landed on Hoth, etc. Hylo sends a mail about that.

 

Sure, that makes sense. But what bothers me isn't where she came from, or her motivation, it's her inexplicable ability to spy on everyone. Even on the Imperial listening post before Nathema, Lana talks about how the Order somehow knew everything that was going on in the Alliance despite all their checks for spies, etc. It would've been nice to have an answer for that (even if it turned out to be Theron) rather than "oh, the magic droid did it".

 

I wonder if the original intention was for Theron's defection to be genuine, with him only realizing later that the Order of Zildrog was a bunch of crazy world-ending lunatics and deciding that he needed to go back.

Sure, that makes sense. But what bothers me isn't where she came from, or her motivation, it's her inexplicable ability to spy on everyone. Even on the Imperial listening post before Nathema, Lana talks about how the Order somehow knew everything that was going on in the Alliance despite all their checks for spies, etc. It would've been nice to have an answer for that (even if it turned out to be Theron) rather than "oh, the magic droid did it".

 

I wonder if the original intention was for Theron's defection to be genuine, with him only realizing later that the Order of Zildrog was a bunch of crazy world-ending lunatics and deciding that he needed to go back.

 

Well she said she could sense her sisters, maybe she found a backdoor which allowed her to spy on the gemini network and by extension the alliance itself, the throne, the fleet everything could've been vulnerable. Also if you've let SCORPIO merge with Iokath during KOTET you get a message of her telling about how she kept tabs on GEMINI-16 despite her being cut off, so my guess is that there's some backdoor both of them were able to explore.

 

Charles does mention how sometimes feedback can shape the story going forward, we'll never know for sure but I think that there is enough evidence that Theron was always playing the double-agent, even from the start he says something along the lines of "I'm sorry, Commander."