Good evening (at the time of writing anyway :-P)! My guild and I have a disagreement about the guard ability for tanks. We understand the basic tool tip functions (5% damage and 25% threat reduction for the guarded player in PvE and the 50% "damage soak" properties -for PvP only.- Our question is this: does the tank receive any increase in -their- threat from guarding a player?

 

We've noticed an anomaly using starparse where tanks can sometimes have ludicrously high threat (I clocked in at 51,242 threat/second on the Karagga fight last night!). Some members of our guild have attributed this to "absorbing" threat from the DPS they guard, reasoning that the 25% threat reduction for the guarded player is being transferred in part, or in whole, to the tank guarding them. We have seen these spikes fairly often in starparse, and their explanation is admittedly sound in logic, and better than my shrug and "I dunno's."

 

I have never seen anything that would even imply this propert for guard, and never saw anything like these threat spikes in parsec. However, I also have no explanation for these insane threat spikes when they occur and are logged by starparse.

 

An intensive forum search and scouring the net with various standard and booleon-style search attempts have netted nothing that even hints of this. To me, this is a good enough indicator, but I'm tying to lay this impass to rest. Some of my guildies are convinced that this does function this way, and if I'm the odd man out in not understanding this feature of guard then I'd certainly like to know! :-P. Thank you in advance.

Edited December 14, 2015 by TestofFaith

Guard does not transfer threat in any way, though that would be an extremely cool mechanic that people have wanted for a long time! Your absurd threat is actually likely from taunting, since taunts multiply the current highest threat (maybe you!) and give that threat to you. If you taunt frequently, your threat is literally exponential. Another possibility (though not on Karagga) is that some adds on some fights spawn with very high threat on all targets, including you. This can generate some insane numbers.

I'd say its taunts, not guard.

 

Unless they fixed them, taunts used to bring the tank 20% over the highest threat. That means mid fight they get very very efficient, and Karraga has 0 mechanics to drop the threat on a tank (ex, annihilator droid drops his threat on all he kb, forcing tank to re-establish it with a taunt)

 

As fight progress, you get 20% threat on every single other 20% (think its 20% anyway, % might be wrong, but thats about it).

 

Taunt become in a way your highest threat generator.

 

After maybe half the fight in Karraga (maybe before, I choose to be conservative) the tank can probably sit and do nothing bu take a step back when the oil comes up, and he won't lose threat to a dps.

 

 

Guard by itself is what you described (and thats actually not something people understand. Some healer refuse to heal unless they get the guard out of massive misunderstanding of how threat works)

i think taunt puts you ''on top +10%'' of those in melee range and +30% of those in the distance.

i think taunt puts you ''on top +10%'' of those in melee range and +30% of those in the distance.

 

Sort of. Taunt looks at where you are relative to a 4 meter radius around the midpoint of the boss. This is a critical distinction, because it means that very narrow bosses (humanoids, or weird bosses like the tentacles in TfB) are the only ones where this comes into play. For most bosses, this radius is INSIDE of the boss's character model, and well inside of the melee hitbox.

 

If you're within this magical 4 meter radius, then it takes the highest threat (regardless of who it is), multiplies it by 110% and sets your threat to that value. If you're outside the radius, it multiplies by 130%. It doesn't matter where the original threat came from or is currently standing; what matters is where you are standing. Because of the aforementioned point about the size of most bosses, this means that, as a practical matter, taunt multiplies highest threat by 130% virtually every time.

 

The reasoning behind this mechanic is actually a bit strange, and probably dates back to an earlier version of the game, but it is remarkably convenient even in the current iteration. Basically, taunt guarantees that you have agro, and it would guarantee that you get agro even if it didn't include the 6 second "guaranteed agro" debuff. That debuff is actually unnecessary for the purposes of pulling agro back with a taunt, since the game will guarantee an agro swap through normal mechanics with just the threat it gives you: the threat threshold for pulling a boss at range is 130% of the threat of the current agro-holder, and at melee it's 110%. The debuff is just gravy.

Edited December 14, 2015 by KeyboardNinja

^^yes totally right..one tends to forget this kind of stuff with time

awesome explanation as always.

Sort of. Taunt looks at where you are relative to a 4 meter radius around the midpoint of the boss. This is a critical distinction, because it means that very narrow bosses (humanoids, or weird bosses like the tentacles in TfB) are the only ones where this comes into play. For most bosses, this radius is INSIDE of the boss's character model, and well inside of the melee hitbox.

 

If you're within this magical 4 meter radius, then it takes the highest threat (regardless of who it is), multiplies it by 110% and sets your threat to that value. If you're outside the radius, it multiplies by 130%. It doesn't matter where the original threat came from or is currently standing; what matters is where you are standing. Because of the aforementioned point about the size of most bosses, this means that, as a practical matter, taunt multiplies highest threat by 130% virtually every time.

 

The reasoning behind this mechanic is actually a bit strange, and probably dates back to an earlier version of the game, but it is remarkably convenient even in the current iteration. Basically, taunt guarantees that you have agro, and it would guarantee that you get agro even if it didn't include the 6 second "guaranteed agro" debuff. That debuff is actually unnecessary for the purposes of pulling agro back with a taunt, since the game will guarantee an agro swap through normal mechanics with just the threat it gives you: the threat threshold for pulling a boss at range is 130% of the threat of the current agro-holder, and at melee it's 110%. The debuff is just gravy.

 

Edit: amend the below figures of 20% and 60% since they were based on DAMAGE, not THREAT. I revisited the parses and realized stance added a threat multiplier to the BASIC attack also.

 

With respect and admiration of your posts, I found a bit of difference this morning in several tests. I think we lost a lot of game mechanics wisdom when the tank posts were wiped.

 

I used several tanks on the target dummy and Starparse and simplified it as much as possible.

 

I struck the dummy, basic attack, less than ten times for each test, threw a single target taunt, and stopped. (rinse and repeat more than several times)

 

The threshold seems to be 3 meters. At a 3m or less range from CENTER of target, taunt generated 20% threat on top of existing threat from damage.

 

Anything over 3m generated 60% threat on top of existing threat from damage.

 

I held to a distance of 3 to 4 meters, again, from center. Long ago there was a thread about the differential coming from the distance to the edge of the target being applied to taunt, and range to center for weapon range.

 

The above figures are primarily from a Jugg (I did not use my PT), and I found a 'bump' with Assassin and Shadow, but the range was consistent at 3m from center.

 

Sin/Shadow multipliers were 21.4% and 64.1% respectively and I suspect that was done because of a damage/threat reduction in previous releases.

 

Not meaning to derail this thread makes me post that I have never seen the threat transference from a guarded friend in the combat logs.

 

Again, KBN, thanks for your contributions to these forums.

 

Best of game

Edited December 14, 2015 by Triality
Bad data

I think you'll have to post the logs . I just tested it, thinking that it's possible they ninja changed it in 4.0, but I'm still getting +10% threat when less than 4m from center and +30% when further as it has always been.

 

Edit: only saw your edit after posting. Everything is normal then

Edited December 14, 2015 by ceazare

I think you'll have to post the logs . I just tested it, thinking that it's possible they ninja changed it in 4.0, but I'm still getting +10% threat when less than 4m from center and +30% when further as it has always been.

 

Edit: only saw your edit after posting. Everything is normal then

 

Yes, I just did some retesting, but the 3 meter still stands.

 

When based on total threat (less the taunt) the threat that taunt adds are 10% and 30%, respectively.

 

I would appreciate independent validation, though. Could you post results at 3.5 meters?

 

Thanks for the comments

Yes, I just did some retesting, but the 3 meter still stands.

 

When based on total threat (less the taunt) the threat that taunt adds are 10% and 30%, respectively.

 

I would appreciate independent validation, though. Could you post results at 3.5 meters?

 

Thanks for the comments

 

Pretty sure the target dummy has a 1m radius, so if the game says 3m its actually 4m from the centre of the dummy. That's probably what's going on with distance there.

That could very well be, but I was under the impression that the distance shown over the health bar was from target center.

 

Wrong ?

 

I suppose with stealth I could verify that with a large planetary enemy, at least until the 8 second Blackout expired

You can test it with almost any selectable character. While you run around inside the red circle they project on the ground the distance meter will stay at 0.0m.

The distance that pops up on the Target portrait frame is from the outer edge of the hit box. On some of the larger boxes it can look like you're standing 8-10 meters from the boss but the distance will show >4m. It's also why Watchman/Anni sentinels/marauders had a hard time with ToS on the Revan fight with the sacrificial sphere, because the game would try to put them 1m away from the boss when they'd use Leap/Charge for focus and they'd end up in stupid instead of that inner ring.

Good call, and verified, thanks.

 

My only remaining problem is that the distance number is all that we can see, and judge whether we are getting 10 or 30% added threat.

 

When DPSing I would prefer my tank to get the 30%.

The distance that pops up on the Target portrait frame is from the outer edge of the hit box. On some of the larger boxes it can look like you're standing 8-10 meters from the boss but the distance will show >4m. It's also why Watchman/Anni sentinels/marauders had a hard time with ToS on the Revan fight with the sacrificial sphere, because the game would try to put them 1m away from the boss when they'd use Leap/Charge for focus and they'd end up in stupid instead of that inner ring.

 

Good point.

Good call, and verified, thanks.

 

My only remaining problem is that the distance number is all that we can see, and judge whether we are getting 10 or 30% added threat.

 

When DPSing I would prefer my tank to get the 30%.

 

Lucky for you most bosses have huge hit boxes, so you are unlikely to ever be hitting them from less that 5m out of their center.

 

Now, lets take a magical jaunt back in time to the mmo-mechanics thread where this was all first ironed out. Ah yes, those were the days.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Gardimuer

What sparked my interest was pulling HM Firebrand from the tank several times in the fight, despite his taunts and my threat drop. Something is amiss and I loath having to cut back on DPS.

 

Thanks to this discussion I can talk more intelligently about it

What sparked my interest was pulling HM Firebrand from the tank several times in the fight, despite his taunts and my threat drop. Something is amiss and I loath having to cut back on DPS.

 

Thanks to this discussion I can talk more intelligently about it

 

Your tank needs to tabulate threat better. Stormcaller is probably the most challenging agro check existing in the game, but it's far from impossible and you absolutely do not need to cut back on DPS. Have your tank move his taunts back, even if it means the first cleave hits the group (it's basically irrelevant) and tighten up his natural threat in his opener.