For DPS yes, you could get away with it as a heal since the min and max damage does not apply to heals, but you wouldn't be able to use hail of bolts or charged bolts if you needed to dps something.

Only situation I can think of is a supercharge cells bolt spam to down someone in a ranked arena or kill an add in a raid or something.

Actually yes. They can use Blaster rifles just fine.

Only two abilities absolutely MUST have a cannon to fire. Charged Shot (our charge up and burst attack) and Hail of Bolts (our ranged AOE).

Only the Gunnery Tree relies on Charged Shot and even then more of a filler to stack Charged Screen and proc Curtain of Fire if Grav Round is locked down.

Otherwise all other abilities DO NOT require a Cannon to fire. A Commando with a Blaster Rifle doesn't suffer much. They just can't use two abilities.

Only combat medic can get away with using a blaster rifle without sacrificing.

Both dps specs lose out because assault cannons have higher min/max damage.

As for skills tied to the assault cannon, again it doesn't matter because dps should never use a blaster rifle. And gunnery never used charged bolts... Assault uses it for procs but there is never a point to use it in gunnery because grab round is better all around... C'mon people.

The way I see it is like a merc choosing to use 1 pistol instead of two. Stick to what the classe's main weapon is...

....Both dps specs lose out because assault cannons have higher min/max damage....

Wrong.

Custom weapons prove that. Rifles with the same barrel do the same damage as Cannons with the same barrel.

Wrong.

 

Custom weapons prove that. Rifles with the same barrel do the same damage as Cannons with the same barrel.

Really?

Assault Cannon: http://i.imgur.com/Art8LFy.png

Blue 104 rating barrel

Damage Range: 203-378

Blaster Rifle: http://i.imgur.com/gNmqA4P.png

Blue 104 rating barrel

Damage Range: 194-291

Really?

 

Assault Cannon: http://i.imgur.com/Art8LFy.png

Blue 104 rating barrel

Damage Range: 203-378

 

Blaster Rifle: http://i.imgur.com/gNmqA4P.png

Blue 104 rating barrel

Damage Range: 194-291

I believe this is *boom headshot*

To the guy who incorrectly called me incorrect:

You can go along thinking you're not losing out with your blaster rifle if you'd like, though.

And you can keep using charged bolts in gunnery spec and losing out on dps from that, too.

Really?

 

Assault Cannon: http://i.imgur.com/Art8LFy.png

Blue 104 rating barrel

Damage Range: 203-378

 

Blaster Rifle: http://i.imgur.com/gNmqA4P.png

Blue 104 rating barrel

Damage Range: 194-291

Curious. If this is truly the case then DPS Vanguards are the inferior DPS class and yet they seem to be doing just fine. Or do they know about this?

In which case is there a passive at work here or some other mechanic that makes our Vanguard brethren better trained with the blaster rifle?

Healing can use a rifle with no drawbacks.

Assault cannot be done as you can't use charged bolts.

Gunnery is viable (not optimal) with a rifle. I did a parse awhile back and found that in full 72s except for one 69 implant you could do just over 2600 DPS with a rifle in gunnery. That's enough dps to do the majority of 55 content, however that is not viable for progression.

Curious. If this is truly the case then DPS Vanguards are the inferior DPS class and yet they seem to be doing just fine. Or do they know about this?

 

In which case is there a passive at work here or some other mechanic that makes our Vanguard brethren better trained with the blaster rifle?

The Vanguard DPS specs use entirely different mechanics and their abilities and priorities are non-comparable with mandos. For instance both VG dps trees derive most of their damage from tech attacks unlike mando that derives most of its damage from ranged attacks. Note tech attacks do not interact with the mainhand damage.

Curious. If this is truly the case then DPS Vanguards are the inferior DPS class and yet they seem to be doing just fine. Or do they know about this?

 

In which case is there a passive at work here or some other mechanic that makes our Vanguard brethren better trained with the blaster rifle?

Weapon damage effects damage done by ranged attacks. Hammer Shot and High Impact Bolt are the only ranged attacks shared by Vanguards and Commandos. All things being equal a Commando will do more damage with these skills...but these skills are only a small part of what both ACs use to deal damage.

Once you remove those two skills, skills that are part of the base Trooper class and therefore shared with Commandos, there isn't much that a Vanguard does that is an actual ranged (white) attack. Just about everything they do is a tech attack. Tech attacks are based off Tech power, which comes from the barrel in your weapon and the armoring in your generator. Those function identically for both classes. Tech skills that both ACs share, like Stick Grenade or Pulse Cannon, will do the same damage with either weapon as weapon damage isn't used when these skills calculate their damage. Any ranged attacks that are specific to the Vanguard class (are there even any?) can be tuned specifically to deal more damage (if necessary) just for that AC.

TL;DR - They get their own specific skills that either use Tech power (same as Commando) or are tuned just for them.

So if I'm reading both of you correctly then all abilities save Hammershot and HiB are tech attack based and don't rely on the mainhand weapon damage at all.

Therefore since in the photos both weapons with the same barrel the tech bonus is the same so both weapons do comparatively the same damage with both AC's respective abilities.

So short of the restriction on charged bolts, if it's not a part of your rotation, there is no downside to using a Rifle on a Commando.

So if I'm reading both of you correctly then all abilities save Hammershot and HiB are tech attack based and don't rely on the mainhand weapon damage at all.

 

Therefore since in the photos both weapons with the same barrel the tech bonus is the same so both weapons do comparatively the same damage with both AC's respective abilities.

 

So short of the restriction on charged bolts, if it's not a part of your rotation, there is no downside to using a Rifle on a Commando.

Hammer Shot, Charged Bolts, HIB, and Full Auto are all mainhand weapon-related abilities. HIB and Full Auto are both essential parts of the rotation for both Gunnery and Assault, and you will be gimping your damage by using a rifle. The Assault tree also relies on Charged Bolts as the main filler of its rotation, so that whole spec is ruled out automatically by using a rifle. Gunnery has a little more tech damage from spamming Grav Round and Demo Round, but Full Auto and HIB are both major parts of it as well.

Any way you slice it, rifles are no good for Commando DPS. You can get away with it for healing, since all heals are tech and do not factor in MH weapon damage.

....since all heals are tech and do not factor in MH weapon damage.

So where would the Hammershot heal factor in then since that's a ranged attack and all it does is reversing the effect when targeting an ally.

So if I'm reading both of you correctly then all abilities save Hammershot and HiB are tech attack based and don't rely on the mainhand weapon damage at all.

 

Therefore since in the photos both weapons with the same barrel the tech bonus is the same so both weapons do comparatively the same damage with both AC's respective abilities.

 

So short of the restriction on charged bolts, if it's not a part of your rotation, there is no downside to using a Rifle on a Commando.

If you'd like your high impact bolt and unload to do less, go for it, buddy. You don't seem to want to listen. Have fun playing assault without charged bolts or gunnery where two of your main attacks do less.

and hammer shot heal would not be affected because if you red the description under combat support, it says it heals for your bonus healing. Bonus healing is not affected by weapon damage.

Curious. If this is truly the case then DPS Vanguards are the inferior DPS class and yet they seem to be doing just fine. Or do they know about this?

 

In which case is there a passive at work here or some other mechanic that makes our Vanguard brethren better trained with the blaster rifle?

You dont seem to know very much about game mechanics, but pretend to and claim your knowledge is fact. Dont do that

If you'd like your high impact bolt and unload to do less, go for it, buddy. You don't seem to want to listen. Have fun playing assault without charged bolts or gunnery where two of your main attacks do less.

Which means DPS Vanguards utilizing Hammershot, HIB and Full Auto as fillers between their tech attacks the same way Commandos do are doing inferior damage. Vanguards rely heavily on HiB in their trees.

So what mechanic is in play that makes DPS Vanguards viable besides no difference in Tech Attack Power which clearly is the same from the provided pictures.

Since you're such an expert on the Mechanics Cash then perhaps you can fill in the gaps where I'm apparently lacking in the information.

So where would the Hammershot heal factor in then since that's a ranged attack and all it does is reversing the effect when targeting an ally.

In the tooltip for Combat Support Cell, it specifies:

"In addition, targeting an ally with Hammer Shot will heal the target for 100% of your tech bonus healing."

So, the Hammer Shot healing is not affected by the difference in weapon damage.

Which means DPS Vanguards utilizing Hammershot, HIB and Full Auto as fillers between their tech attacks the same way Commandos do are doing inferior damage. Vanguards rely heavily on HiB in their trees.

 

So what mechanic is in play that makes DPS Vanguards viable besides no difference in Tech Attack Power which clearly is the same from the provided pictures.

 

Since you're such an expert on the Mechanics Cash then perhaps you can fill in the gaps where I'm apparently lacking in the information.

Vanguards don't have the same rotations as Commandos, even in the shared Assault tree. For Commandos, Assault consists of Charged Bolts and Full Auto (both ranged abilities that are affected by weapon damage) being used to proc HIB. For Vanguards, instead of Full Auto and Charged Bolts, they use Ion Pulse (tech damage) and Stockstrike (kinetic damage). And the trees are designed somewhat differently as well; if you look at Commando Assault and Vanguard Assault trees side by side, you'll see some of the skills aren't the same.

If you really want to be technical, then yes, a Vanguard will lose against a Commando if all they do is spam Hammer Shot, Full Auto and HIB, without factoring any skill points or other abilities. But that's not how class balance works, and Vanguards are capable of great DPS just like Commandos, and they are not at any disadvantage due to using a rifle. Commandos ARE at a disadvantage with a rifle, since the class is built around using an assault cannon.

My opinion is this...

For general daily runs, 50 HM and 55 SM flashpoints, classic operations and even PVP, you won't notice the lack of power from a rifle compared to a cannon.

I have one commando and one vanguard and in all the situations I said above, they perform pretty much the same way, since they're situations where you don't actually need to put out massive DPS to kill something.

Even in PVP it's fun because people think you're a vanguard (if they don't pay attention to your class's symbol or simple don't turn them on) and that you won't do much damage from range so they kinda leave you alone, just to see you throw loads of grenades at them from range and spam grav round or flame round from range and dps them, or maybe see you heal to full while they try to beat you up... haha, it's funny, I've done this many, many times before they realize I'm actually a commando and not a vanguard.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT...

And this is a BIG but... if you plan to run 55 SM & HM Ops or be part of a progression team, or run 55 HM flashpoints, YOU DO NEED the cannon, because of its higher damage output and in these situations I just said, you need to dish out as much damage as you can, using as many abilities as you can, you can't afford to lack two abilities in these cases just because of looks. You will only jeopardize the whole group.

If you don't like the looks of most of the cannons, buy one of those "gatling gun" ones... I have one of that and my blaster rifle, both with same mods inside just so I can have them on hand for when it's needed.

Weapon damage effects damage done by ranged attacks. Hammer Shot and High Impact Bolt are the only ranged attacks shared by Vanguards and Commandos. All things being equal a Commando will do more damage with these skills...but these skills are only a small part of what both ACs use to deal damage.

 

Once you remove those two skills, skills that are part of the base Trooper class and therefore shared with Commandos, there isn't much that a Vanguard does that is an actual ranged (white) attack. Just about everything they do is a tech attack. Tech attacks are based off Tech power, which comes from the barrel in your weapon and the armoring in your generator. Those function identically for both classes. Tech skills that both ACs share, like Stick Grenade or Pulse Cannon, will do the same damage with either weapon as weapon damage isn't used when these skills calculate their damage. Any ranged attacks that are specific to the Vanguard class (are there even any?) can be tuned specifically to deal more damage (if necessary) just for that AC.

 

TL;DR - They get their own specific skills that either use Tech power (same as Commando) or are tuned just for them.

Also remember that Vanguards get an additional 15% armor penetration on High Impact Bolt to make up the difference in based range damage.

Which means DPS Vanguards utilizing Hammershot, HIB and Full Auto as fillers between their tech attacks the same way Commandos do are doing inferior damage. Vanguards rely heavily on HiB in their trees.

 

So what mechanic is in play that makes DPS Vanguards viable besides no difference in Tech Attack Power which clearly is the same from the provided pictures.

 

Since you're such an expert on the Mechanics Cash then perhaps you can fill in the gaps where I'm apparently lacking in the information.

Let me answer your question. The talent in the middle tree that grants armor penetration for HIB grants 15% more for Vanguards making up the base damage difference. Hammershot should not be enough of any DPS class Troopers rotation to be impacted significantly, and the Vanguards primary rotations (as others have noted) is far more tech than range dependent. That's your answer.

Let me answer your question. The talent in the middle tree that grants armor penetration for HIB grants 15% more for Vanguards making up the base damage difference. Hammershot should not be enough of any DPS class Troopers rotation to be impacted significantly, and the Vanguards primary rotations (as others have noted) is far more tech than range dependent. That's your answer.

Thank you. That would be the answer I'm looking for. There clearly is a mechanic at work that makes the two comparable and that would be it.

As much as people disregard abilities, I am of the mindset that any Damage going out counts toward the Damage output of the class so after all is said and done with comparable tech attacks. The lower output of Hammershot does concern me for blaster rifles.

Which means DPS Vanguards utilizing Hammershot, HIB and Full Auto as fillers between their tech attacks the same way Commandos do are doing inferior damage. Vanguards rely heavily on HiB in their trees.

 

So what mechanic is in play that makes DPS Vanguards viable besides no difference in Tech Attack Power which clearly is the same from the provided pictures.

 

Since you're such an expert on the Mechanics Cash then perhaps you can fill in the gaps where I'm apparently lacking in the information.

As has already been said, VG has access to additional armor pen for HIB. They also have more ways to increase its damage (Brutal Impact in Shield tree gives 6% damage increase).

And its not just the lower output of Hammershot. You are lowering the damage of all your Ranged based attacks (which take into account your min-max damage). Which means Full Auto. Not to mention you cant even use Charged Bolts with a rifle/carbine, which is seriously gimping you if youre trying to play Assault.

The bottom line is that there is a loss of DPS when you do not use an assault cannon. Its not a huge loss (it can be if youre playing Assault), but anyone concerned with being competitive (PvP or PvE) is going to want to keep using an assault cannon.