the one person reporting 218 kinetic damage had a 35% debuff on the boss, not 20.

 

for mercs, best in slot might be kinetic, but for dot trees without 35% debuff i think internal damage is better.

 

also, if the kinetic damage can be dodged and shielded, then the average value that gets through would be less than what you get out of an internal proc relic. considering the merc did not report any shielded hits (does dreadtooth haave a shield generator), the attack might be a tech attack.

 

can people start uploading their parses with the kinetic relic up to torparse or something please?

Thank you very much for catching this!!!! I do apologize for any misinformation I posted. I did have a merc friend testing the kinetic relic. It completely slipped my mind about that. The Elemental is BiS ulness you're a Merc/Commando. The MMO-Mechanic post has been updated.

It depends on your spec. Arsenal commando has a 35% armor penetration from High Velocity Cyclinder, and then a futher 20% from tracer missile, to a total of 55%.

Actually, it's 10% from the stance and 25% from tracer for a total of 35%.

In another words, if you have ANY armor penetration, it'll do more damage.

Not really. Armor debuffs haven't stacked since 1.3. 25% is the maximum raid armor debuff achievable in the game, which is above the 23% threshold. However, neither 25% nor 20% are assured. You can only get the 25% debuff from an arsenal merc, while the 20% debuff can come from a juggernaut or a properly spec'd sniper. Without the full 25%, the internal/elemental damage proc is superior to the kinetic/energy proc.

So basically, get the kinetic/energy proc if you are sure to have a merc/commando in your raid who is arsenal/gunnery spec. Otherwise, go internal/elemental. The difference in damage is quite small, so it's probably safest to go internal/elemental unless you yourself are arsenal/gunnery spec.

It depends on your spec. Arsenal commando has a 35% armor penetration from High Velocity Cyclinder, and then a futher 20% from tracer missile, to a total of 55%. So a proc relic with 288 energy will be better than an internal of 210. Whether a merc/commando should use a proc relic is another matter.

 

Assuming a raid setting, there will always be a 20% debuff on the armor. So the equation for which is 'better' can be summed up as following..

 

Energy proc = 288 * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - (0.20 + P))), where P is your armor penetration.

 

Internal proc = 210.

 

Rewriting for P, you have (1-0.35*(1- (0.2 + P))) = 0.73, expanding on the left

 

(1 - 0.35 * (0.8 - P)) = 0.73, move the 1 across

 

0.35 * (0.8 - P) = 0.27, diving by 0.35 both side

 

0.8 - P = 0.77

 

so P = 3%.

 

subtratcint 0.73 from both side, and moving 0.35P to the right

 

0.20 = 0.35 * P

 

P = 3%

 

In another words, if you have ANY armor penetration, it'll do more damage.

Hi Not Ronin,

P = 11% due to diminishing return.

I did all the math but the forum bugged and everthing was lost, so i write only my solutions.

An Arsenal Mercenary will have a proc of 232 dmg points

Look here for the damage reduction numbers: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=4230212&postcount=17

The sims will show if it is a better choice than a War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages.

EDIT: The proc should deal 225 damage because the relic deals 280 instead of 288 energy damage (my mistake), but simcraft might have some trouble with the armor formula, so 288 energy will end in 225 damage per hit what is the theoretical right damage amount.

I ran some sims which shows that the energy relic is better than the war hero relic.

So i would definately recommend the Dread Guard Boundless Ages and the Energy Proc Relic!

Thanks for doing all the tests for this guys. As a Sentinel Watchman, I've switched from the two WH relics to DG Boundless +DG Elemental Proc. After only one attempt on the dummy, I was getting 1836 (my previous best was maybe 1815 or so). I've upgraded my gear a bit, but I think the switch of relics helps.

Here's the log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/63239259-91db-4e52-9c56-884a9c0411db/overview#d=0,f=1,t=1,b=1

Some interesting math for the Elemental:

Over a 5 minute fight (310 secs), the proc went off 52 times. That comes out to every 6 seconds. I did 15605 damage from the proc alone, which means each hit was for 300 dmg. It made up 2.7% of my overall damage. I can't say how much I lost from the static power, but 2.7% seems like a pretty decent bump.

This thread has restored my faith in this community. People have been civil in their discussion! Civil for christ sakes! Someone call for a nerf of someones keyboard or something!

Also, thanks to those of you who have bothered doing all the math, very very helpful for those of us who are to stupid to do math beyond 2+2

Thanks for doing all the tests for this guys. As a Sentinel Watchman, I've switched from the two WH relics to DG Boundless +DG Elemental Proc. After only one attempt on the dummy, I was getting 1836 (my previous best was maybe 1815 or so). I've upgraded my gear a bit, but I think the switch of relics helps.

 

Here's the log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/63239259-91db-4e52-9c56-884a9c0411db/overview#d=0,f=1,t=1,b=1

 

Some interesting math for the Elemental:

 

Over a 5 minute fight (310 secs), the proc went off 52 times. That comes out to every 6 seconds. I did 15605 damage from the proc alone, which means each hit was for 300 dmg. It made up 2.7% of my overall damage. I can't say how much I lost from the static power, but 2.7% seems like a pretty decent bump.

This. DoT specs such as the sentinel (especially classes that have two weapons) should notice a proc rate close to 6 seconds.

All data is helpful in defining the damage parameters.

Thanks for doing all the tests for this guys. As a Sentinel Watchman, I've switched from the two WH relics to DG Boundless +DG Elemental Proc. After only one attempt on the dummy, I was getting 1836 (my previous best was maybe 1815 or so). I've upgraded my gear a bit, but I think the switch of relics helps.

 

Here's the log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/63239259-91db-4e52-9c56-884a9c0411db/overview#d=0,f=1,t=1,b=1

 

Some interesting math for the Elemental:

 

Over a 5 minute fight (310 secs), the proc went off 52 times. That comes out to every 6 seconds. I did 15605 damage from the proc alone, which means each hit was for 300 dmg. It made up 2.7% of my overall damage. I can't say how much I lost from the static power, but 2.7% seems like a pretty decent bump.

Using the DG proc relic is 66 power less than the WH. 66 power = 15.18 dmg. Now if you take that number and don't include crit/crit multiplier the proc relic is a huge upgrade. From my testing Ive seen that the proc relic is good for a minimum of 16 dps during a fight and thats with the worst efficiency on that proc. I had a really bad parse on T and Z with a lot of movement going on and ended up with like 40% efficiency it was going off like once every 7s. It still came out to well over the dmg 66 power would have given during the same duration of fight. The overall dmg may not seem like much but its actually better.

Posted this already in the wrong thread, but anyway:

I've seen you speaking about the dread guard healing relic... But the dread guard healing relic has +power on it, and less endurance.

Wouldn't the campaign healing relic be better for a shadow then? The TK heal would heal for more and probably compensate for the difference in proc magnitude?

Also:

Gunnery mandos/arsenal merc have 35% armor penetration from the stance (not 10), to which you have to add the 20% armor reduction on the target. Now, IIRC they said that they basically calculate the % added together, meaning a mando/merc specced that way will basically see a 55% reduction on target armor, for an effective mitigation (barring some kind of diminishing returns) of 15,75% on operation bosses meaning that, on average and not counting crit, those classes should see 235ish hits on the kinetic/energy relics.

[Edit: my calculations are off because the reduction is on the rating, no the straight mitigation, so the relic proc will hit for less than that, but should still be better than the internal one]

Finally, pending clarification on the healing relic, what would be the BiS for the second relic for a tanking shadow? The DG absorb proc? a WH one? In case of a pvp one, the second best would be...?

concerning the arsenal merc cylinder and arm pene. I have seen my min hits for the most part go for 218 and Ive had a crit as high as 443. That is using the kinetic proc relic of course.

Right, this is why the kinetic is BiS for Arsenal Mercs and Gunnery Commandos

I've seen you speaking about the dread guard healing relic... But the dread guard healing relic has +power on it, and less endurance.

 

Wouldn't the campaign healing relic be better for a shadow then? The TK heal would heal for more and probably compensate for the difference in proc magnitude?

That's a really interesting question. Ask Mr Robot hasn't updated their relic data yet, and I don't currently have access to log into the game and look at the relic itself. You could be right.

Finally, pending clarification on the healing relic, what would be the BiS for the second relic for a tanking shadow? The DG absorb proc? a WH one? In case of a pvp one, the second best would be...?

Off-hand, I would say the DG defense relic is probably second best in slot, but I need to spend some quality time with the numbers to be sure. It is almost certain that the defense relic is superior to the DG proc absorb.

That's a really interesting question. Ask Mr Robot hasn't updated their relic data yet, and I don't currently have access to log into the game and look at the relic itself. You could be right.

Stats as they are in game right now:

Campaign Relic of Ephemeral Mending:

+84 Endurance

443 health over 3 secs every 20 secs

Dread Guard Relic of Ephemeral Mending:

+64 Endurance

+47 Power

505 health over 3 secs every 20 secs

Chance to proc is 50% on both

-----

Adding the other tanking relics so if you want to compare for the second relic:

Dread Guard Relic of Shield Amplification

+95 Endurance

+455 Absorb Rating, for 6 secs every 20 secs (Apparently 100% chance on shield)

Dread Guard Relic of Shrouded Crusader

+95 Endurance

Clickable +215 Shield and Absorb for 20 secs

Dread Guard Relic of Imperiling Serenity

+95 Endurance

Clickable +350 Defense Rating for 20 secs

Thanks for all of the number crunching so far. Would someone mind throwing the 1.6 Elite War Hero relics into the mix for both static tanking (+def/shield) and especially the Boundless ages one for DPS? Dulfy has links to all of the new-stated relics under the armor for individual classes. I'm wondering if I should be saving up daily comms for Dread Guard relics or playing more PvP and not spending my ranked comms for EWH relics.

Thanks!

Ok, so did some testing on a dummy with my guardian, switching between various stance states (fun bit: it appears that straight damage boost %'s in your talent tree affect the relic, such as stance boosts, and the associated talents.

Target: Operations Training Target MK-5

Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest

No stance/No Armor debuff/No armor talent (tooltip damage of 280, for reference):

Non-crit: 182 Crit: 325

Commando/Guardian Armor Debuff/No Stance/No talent

Non-crit: 196 Crit: 349

_______________

I had a commando there applying the armor debuff, so I tested with both, and they were the same number. Someone inferred that the commando debuff reduced armor more (don't remember who), so I wanted to check that, and the numbers were the same for both, so looks like a negatory. From here on out, using only the guardian debuff.

_______________

Shien Stance/No Armor Debuff (with single-saber Mastery Talent)

Tooltip damage goes from 280 to 315, but only after you unequip it.

Non-crit: 193 Crit: 344

With armor Debuff:

Non-Crit: 207 Crit: 370

Shii-Cho Stance (no mastery talent)(Tooltip reads 297):

Non-crit: 187 Crit: 335

With Armor Debuff

Non-Crit: 202 Crit: 360

So, fun note before I spec over to Focus (I normally play vigilance so it was my starting point). The tooltips seem to be doing some funny things. When I go from no stance to shien, the tooltip changes from 280 to 315, an increase of 12.5%, however the damage on the dummy goes from 182 to 193, an increase of 6.04% (what I would expect with the shien increase). And then, when I go from no stance to shii-cho, the tooltip goes from 280 to 297, an increase of 6.07%, however the damage again goes from 182 to 187, an increase of 2.75%.It appears the tooltips are somehow doubling the stance increase amount. I have no clue as to the cause or reasoning of this, but thought it was an interesting note.

It seems that anyone without any armor penetration in their talents should be using the elemental or internal relics, as even with the 6% from shien stance and 5 stacks of my armor debuff, the kinetic relic hit for less than the 210 baseline of the elemental/internal relics, assuming that boss armor values are constant and consistent with the MK-5 training dummy, and armor debuffs correctly do not stack.

OK, now over to focus spec.

First off, confirmed that the single-saber mastery talent does not affect damage of the relic in Shii-Cho. This is of course the "kinetic damage" relic though, so I was not expecting to. Can't really test shien stance without single saber mastery though... But since the numbers come out to just a 6% increase, but my guess is a no. Might test on a energy damage relic, but I'm guessing also a no, as the talent specifies force/melee, and the relics are talking kin/ene/ele/int, but I wanted to make sure.

Shii-cho stance/No Armor Debuff/Shii-cho mastery talent (30% armor penetration)(tooltip reads 297 still)

Non-Crit: 209 Crit: 374

Shii-Cho stance/Full Armor Debuff/Shii Cho Mastery Talent

Non-Crit: 222 Crit: 396

Alright, so it looks like the armor mastery brought the non-debuffed damage from 187 to 209, and the debuffed damage from 202 to 222. Was an increase of 11.76% damage without the debuff, and an increase of 9.90% damage with the debuff. The baseline damage going from no buffs to just the armor debuff was an increase of 7.69%.

So, I think it's safe to say that armor debuff does indeed stack directly with armor penetration in talents, as it provided roughly the same damage increase whether the target had the debuff or not.

If you've got armor penetration in your talent tree, go with the kinetic/energy damage, it'll be about 6% better for focus guardian than the elemental or internal's baseline 210.

If you don't have armor penetration in your talent tree, go with internal/elemental, the kin/energy will hit for about 196, about 6.6% less than the int/ele's baseline 210.

Alright, done with this for now. Let me know what you think.

Oh, one last thing:

The campaign relic (kinetic) hits for baseline 160, so the baseline 182 of the dread guard relic is about 13.75% better, but that would have been apparent with tooltips anyway.

Edit: Did some editing, I don't have any office programs on this computer and wrote that **** in notepad, shoulda figured it wouldn't copypaste over correctly.

I had a commando there applying the armor debuff, so I tested with both, and they were the same number. Someone inferred that the commando debuff reduced armor more (don't remember who), so I wanted to check that, and the numbers were the same for both, so looks like a negatory. From here on out, using only the guardian debuff.

Just clearing out something: The commando debuff on the target is 20% at 5 stacks, like the guardian one. But a gunnery commando has an additional 35% AP bonus for HIMSELF due to stance

Just clearing out something: The commando debuff on the target is 20% at 5 stacks, like the guardian one. But a gunnery commando has an additional 35% AP bonus for HIMSELF due to stance

Don't forget the additional 30% armor pen on HiB and full auto. Don't know if this have an impact on the procs.

Anyway, A huge thank you to all this troll-free thread's contributors

Don't forget the additional 30% armor pen on HiB and full auto. Don't know if this have an impact on the procs.

 

Anyway, A huge thank you to all this troll-free thread's contributors

That will ahve zero bearing on the proc, only affects HiB/FA. Would be mroe curious to see how the elemental damage relic scales with VG's/PT's though, anyone done any testing with them?

And fantastic works peeps.Keep it up

That will ahve zero bearing on the proc, only affects HiB/FA. Would be mroe curious to see how the elemental damage relic scales with VG's/PT's though, anyone done any testing with them?

 

And fantastic works peeps.Keep it up

AFAIK it's been tested and it does scale. Not only that but from what I understood, it also benefits from crit chance bonuses the sentinel watchman tree gets.

Stats as they are in game right now:

Campaign Relic of Ephemeral Mending:

+84 Endurance

443 health over 3 secs every 20 secs

 

Dread Guard Relic of Ephemeral Mending:

+64 Endurance

+47 Power

505 health over 3 secs every 20 secs

 

Chance to proc is 50% on both

 

-----

 

Adding the other tanking relics so if you want to compare for the second relic:

Dread Guard Relic of Shield Amplification

+95 Endurance

+455 Absorb Rating, for 6 secs every 20 secs (Apparently 100% chance on shield)

 

Dread Guard Relic of Shrouded Crusader

+95 Endurance

Clickable +215 Shield and Absorb for 20 secs

 

Dread Guard Relic of Imperiling Serenity

+95 Endurance

Clickable +350 Defense Rating for 20 secs

Ok, so even with the endurance loss, the DG healer relic is still an upgrade, albeit a very small one (over the Campaign healer relic). So, I would still put that relic as first BiS. As for the second relic, the proc absorb and activated relics are actually quite bad. They work, but they're very underwhelming compared to the healing relic. A better choice for now is the War Hero defense relic, which is about 65% better than the next closest contender (the proc absorb). Once the Elite War Hero defense relic comes out, it will be an even more compelling choice.

So, 1.5 BiS for an assassin/shadow tank are: Dread Guard Relic of Ephemeral Mending and the War Hero Relic of Imperiling Serenity.

Just clearing out something: The commando debuff on the target is 20% at 5 stacks, like the guardian one. But a gunnery commando has an additional 35% AP bonus for HIMSELF due to stance

Ah ok. Yeah, it's an additional 30% for focus guard/rage jugg on top of the debuff. I was mostly responding to some false information that I thought I had read.

So i've been following this thread and its great. I love the positive help in here. Gives me faith in the community.

however I have a 50 sage/sent/vanguard all in full 63 both with war hero relics on them each.

What would be BIS for the

Sage

Vanguard

Sent

all dps dot spec.

P.S.

I love you guys for doing the number crunching. My entire guild has been giving you guys props.

So i've been following this thread and its great. I love the positive help in here. Gives me faith in the community.

 

 

however I have a 50 sage/sent/vanguard all in full 63 both with war hero relics on them each.

What would be BIS for the

Sage

Vanguard

Sent

all dps dot spec.

 

P.S.

I love you guys for doing the number crunching. My entire guild has been giving you guys props.

None of those specs have armor penetration, so you're best off with either the internal or the elemental proc relic, (either one is fine), and the on-use power relic.

None of those specs have armor penetration, so you're best off with either the internal or the elemental proc relic, (either one is fine), and the on-use power relic.

I'm not sure.

Did they ever fix the Crit-chance-bug on the internal-version?