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Lucas' Sidious, EU Sidious, & Vader Debate for Lore Junkies.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Lucas' Sidious, EU Sidious, & Vader Debate for Lore Junkies.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.16.2011 , 03:34 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......

The balance is between Vader (the old hope) and Luke (the new hope). Vader probably doesn't trust Sidious anymore and tries to get Luke to join him on the darkside and kill Sidious. The question is could Vader and Luke actually defeat Sidious?
Luke on the otherhand is trying to get Anakin back to the lightside. Both options can't happen as it will disrupt the balance of force and so is not destined to happen.

The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force". I don't think it is. Most likely from time to time one side will overpower the other and vice versa always somehow meeting half way....being in equilibrium (which is jedi fighting sith in a all out galatic war....thats the only time when the force can be in balance.

I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.
This is from GL.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

It has nothing to do with numbers. If it did then Anakin would imbalance it considering there's Luke and Leia. With the Emperor dead and Vader dead. That'd leave two light users. This is incorrect though. The balance was attained by destroying the Sith.

SammyRath's Avatar


SammyRath
12.16.2011 , 04:35 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......
It isn't the number of Force users that creates imbalance. It's their actions.
The Jedi were peace keepers, they didn't start conflicts, or intentionally caused to anyone.
The Sith were destroyers. They thrived on creating conflicts, and causing harm to everyone. Darth Sidious was the culmination of over 1000 years of deception with the sole purpose of overthrowing the Republic, wiping out the Jedi, and having the Sith rule the Galaxy.

When Sidious instigates The Clone Wars, the destruction caused Is so immense It engulfs the entire galaxy with the Dark Side. Trillions of lives are lost, cities are devastated, and corruption is thriving in the Republic. That is the imbalance caused.
Not by 10,000 Jedi Vs. 2 Sith.

Quote:
The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force".
Yes. Saying otherwise completely negates the entire plot of the movies. I.E. Anakin's destiny.

Quote:
I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.
Sidious Was the last Sith. He and Darth Vader was the last line of Sith thanks to 'The Rule of Two'. The traditions that had been carried over at least 1,000 years were gone.
Vader was destroyed when Anakin redeemed himself, and killed Sidious. Bringing balance to the Force by eliminating the Sith once, and for all, and crippling the Empire beyond recovery.

I have no idea where you deduced all those ideas from, but just about every one you state negates, overrides, or completely derails everything stated in the movies.


To answer the original question:
Quote:
So which version of Sidious is Vader 80% as powerful as? Only the Lucas' version of Sidious, the EU version of Sidious, both versions of Sidious, neither as the canon has become to convuluted perhaps?
For me, It's the movie version.

JohraTon's Avatar


JohraTon
12.16.2011 , 05:05 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by HARBINGERXIII View Post
s. Revan thread is already posted. It seems likely that one featuring Sidious will not be far behind. So before

Now Lucas states in his version of Star Wars, that Sidious isn't cloned he dies over Endor on the second deathstar. He also states that while Anakin had the potential to reach 200% of Sidious potential, because of the actions on Mustafar he only reaches about 80% of his force potential.
I see people use this quote and say Vader was 80% as powerful as Vader. That's not what it means if that's actually what Lucas said, taken literally, this means Vader is more powerful than Sidious, which is against half the references in the SW books.

He had the potential to be twice (200%) as powerful as Sidious.

Due to injuries he only reached 80% of this potential, still 80% of the 200% he could have been.

e.g. say my mate had £100 and I had the potential to have 200% of that or £200.
Reaching 80% of my potential would mean I had £160, which is still more than him.

Either GL is contradicting his own story, which wouldn't be unheard of or your quoting him wrong.
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HARBINGERXIII's Avatar


HARBINGERXIII
12.16.2011 , 07:22 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by JohraTon View Post
I see people use this quote and say Vader was 80% as powerful as Vader. That's not what it means if that's actually what Lucas said, taken literally, this means Vader is more powerful than Sidious, which is against half the references in the SW books.

He had the potential to be twice (200%) as powerful as Sidious.

Due to injuries he only reached 80% of this potential, still 80% of the 200% he could have been.

e.g. say my mate had £100 and I had the potential to have 200% of that or £200.
Reaching 80% of my potential would mean I had £160, which is still more than him.

Either GL is contradicting his own story, which wouldn't be unheard of or your quoting him wrong.
Not sure of the exact wording of the wuote or it's source to be honest. I used it because everytime a versus thread involving Sidious, Vader, or both springs up it seems to be the default argument for a large percentage of forum posters. However, with as many times as it's been posted, I can't ever remember someone posting a counter argument that stated the quote was false.

Though your posting does make me curious, was Lucas intending to state that Vader only reached 80% of Vader's potential, or only reached 80% of Sidious potential? Hmm, going to have to go looking for this interview when I get a chance, find out the exact wording Lucas used in the interview.

When I wrote this I was intending to say Vader reaches 80% of Sidious' potential, not 80% of his true potential. At least that was the meaning I always took form the quote people use. I'll clean up the wording a bit.
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Jadedfate's Avatar


Jadedfate
12.16.2011 , 08:52 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......

The balance is between Vader (the old hope) and Luke (the new hope). Vader probably doesn't trust Sidious anymore and tries to get Luke to join him on the darkside and kill Sidious. The question is could Vader and Luke actually defeat Sidious?
Luke on the otherhand is trying to get Anakin back to the lightside. Both options can't happen as it will disrupt the balance of force and so is not destined to happen.

The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force". I don't think it is. Most likely from time to time one side will overpower the other and vice versa always somehow meeting half way....being in equilibrium (which is jedi fighting sith in a all out galatic war....thats the only time when the force can be in balance.

I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc


Please see above posts...Lucas defined what Balance means. The Dark side is the force out of Balance..the true nature of the force is the Light side.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.16.2011 , 11:20 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by JohraTon View Post
I see people use this quote and say Vader was 80% as powerful as Vader. That's not what it means if that's actually what Lucas said, taken literally, this means Vader is more powerful than Sidious, which is against half the references in the SW books.

He had the potential to be twice (200%) as powerful as Sidious.

Due to injuries he only reached 80% of this potential, still 80% of the 200% he could have been.

e.g. say my mate had £100 and I had the potential to have 200% of that or £200.
Reaching 80% of my potential would mean I had £160, which is still more than him.

Either GL is contradicting his own story, which wouldn't be unheard of or your quoting him wrong.
What? Vader is only 80% of Sidious. How does that make him more powerful? 80% of a pie isn't more than the whole pie. Sidious is around 20% more powerful than Vader. Vader's potential post mustafar is 80% of Sidious potential. If it wasn't for that he could have achieved 200% of Sidious and been far more powerful.

mertox's Avatar


mertox
12.16.2011 , 11:24 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by plandream View Post
Anakin is supposed to be the "Saviour", the One that will bring balance.

He failed IMHO.
I disagree. He did bring balance to the force in the end. When he threw Sidious into the pit, he fulfilled the prophecy. The prophecy never said when he would do it, just that he would.

SammyRath's Avatar


SammyRath
12.16.2011 , 12:00 PM | #28
Quote:
Anakin is supposed to be the "Saviour", the One that will bring balance.

He failed IMHO.
I think you should watch Episode 6 buddy.

Smithie's Avatar


Smithie
12.16.2011 , 09:38 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadedfate View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc


Please see above posts...Lucas defined what Balance means. The Dark side is the force out of Balance..the true nature of the force is the Light side.
well ok i will admit that i was wrong. I just always thought that balance of the force was the light and dark side. Kinda like a ying and yang...both are needed to create balance, which to me makes more sense.

BUT

Ok so if the dark side is considered the cause of the imbalance and the light side is the equilibrium of the force. Then the eradication of the darkside is what brings balance and that is what we witness in episode VI. Fair enough!!
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BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
12.17.2011 , 12:35 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by SammyRath View Post
I think you should watch Episode 6 buddy.
I think he meant that he failed as the saver that Anakin was "suppose to be"(Light-Sided God, instead of Light Side turned Dark Sided Hero).
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