I've had my Juggernaut shelved for the last 2-3 months because my guild needed a Sniper, after my guild fell apart from people leaving the game, the only real desire for me to keep playing this game is my Juggernaut....

I can tank sure, but I enjoy DPS a little more, I'd like to make my Juggernaut a DPS main but are we still seriously gimped in comparison? I have heard and seen that Marauders are through the roof now, is there any hope that Juggernauts can hold their own now? (especially now that parsers are live)

I tried looking up some builds for vengeance or even jug DPS and everything is from Dec/Feb/Mar and doesn't seem to reflect anything from 1.2

I've had my Juggernaut shelved for the last 2-3 months because my guild needed a Sniper, after my guild fell apart from people leaving the game, the only real desire for me to keep playing this game is my Juggernaut....

 

I can tank sure, but I enjoy DPS a little more, I'd like to make my Juggernaut a DPS main but are we still seriously gimped in comparison? I have heard and seen that Marauders are through the roof now, is there any hope that Juggernauts can hold their own now? (especially now that parsers are live)

 

I tried looking up some builds for vengeance or even jug DPS and everything is from Dec/Feb/Mar and doesn't seem to reflect anything from 1.2

DPS Juggs are perfectly viable as long as you are geared, have the correct spec and can time your priority system/ rotation properly. The current preferred vengeance spec post 1.2 is 2/32/7. In full rakata you should expect to push around 1500/1600 dps when you have a static (more or less) target.

See this video for a very easy to follow guide:

Our problem is not that we are bad dps, but that we don't offer enough raid utlity compared to marauders who have, for instance, predation which buffs the entire raid.

EDIT: fixed the link

DPS Juggs are perfectly viable as long as you are geared, have the correct spec and can time your priority system/ rotation properly. The current preferred vengeance spec post 1.2 is 2/32/7. In full rakata you should expect to push around 1500/1600 dps when you have a static (more or less) target.

 

See this video for a very easy to follow guide: Juggernaut Vengeance DPS guide.

 

Our problem is not that we are bad dps, but that we don't offer enough raid utlity compared to marauders who have predation which buffs the entire raid.

That link appears to be dead >.<

Edit : cool beans

That link appears to be dead >.<

Sorry, fixed.

Yeah my DPS gear is a mix of Rak and Columi, I just wasn't sure what the optimal rotation is now, I havent done Vengeance DPS in a long time so I wanna make sure its correct by 1.2's priority , especially now that ravage is boosted up I'd assume its worth using now ^_^

Using the spec in the video, Ravage is now our top damage dealing ability, followed by Impale and Shatter for the damage over time effects. Those three abilites are pivotal to our damage so best to prioritise them above all others. After that, it's a case of using Force Scream, Smash and any other rage builders when the other three are on CD. It's best to do a sunder before any rotation due to rage building and the armour reduction effect. The vid explains it perfectly.

DPS Juggs are perfectly viable as long as you are geared, have the correct spec and can time your priority system/ rotation properly. The current preferred vengeance spec post 1.2 is 2/32/7. In full rakata you should expect to push around 1500/1600 dps when you have a static (more or less) target.

 

See this video for a very easy to follow guide:

.

 

Our problem is not that we are bad dps, but that we don't offer enough raid utlity compared to marauders who have, for instance, predation which buffs the entire raid.

 

EDIT: fixed the link

Juggs have their uses for the whole raid as well. Sundering assault is a nice armor debuff to have on boss fights, jugg defensive cooldowns and heavy armor make it so that I rarely ever die in raid outside of a wipe, having both intercede and charge gives you superior maneuverability over other melee classes and intercede can be used to reduce threat and damage on an ally, and if the tank drops juggs can easily throw a taunt and tank the boss until the tank gets revived which I've had to do plenty of times.

Using the spec in the video, Ravage is now our top damage dealing ability, followed by Impale and Shatter for the damage over time effects. Those three abilites are pivotal to our damage so best to prioritise them above all others. After that, it's a case of using Force Scream, Smash and any other rage builders when the other three are on CD. It's best to do a sunder before any rotation due to rage building and the armour reduction effect. The vid explains it perfectly.

I know it's not your video, but would you happen to know if

1. you stop the Bleed Rotation if ravage procs on shatter? That way you can ravage, then impale again for another chance to proc?

2. Do you still start the ravage rotation with sundering assault if you open with a saber throw -> Charge (since saber throw can be spec'd to add sundering armor)?

3. If we don't have the 4 piece bonus is there an alternate to the rage recovery rotation? Is it worth moving back (via strafing sideways) a bit to get the throw off and use a charge while at it? Seems like it would be a slight DPS loss.

EDIT: Don't know why I didn't think of this before, I'll post the questions on youtube as well

I know it's not your video, but would you happen to know if

 

1. you stop the Bleed Rotation if ravage procs on shatter? That way you can ravage, then impale again for another chance to proc?

2. Do you still start the ravage rotation with sundering assault if you open with a saber throw -> Charge (since saber throw can be spec'd to add sundering armor)?

3. If we don't have the 4 piece bonus is there an alternate to the rage recovery rotation? Is it worth moving back (via strafing sideways) a bit to get the throw off and use a charge while at it? Seems like it would be a slight DPS loss.

 

EDIT: Don't know why I didn't think of this before, I'll post the questions on youtube as well

1. I'd say no, because there is a 9 second internal cd limit in the skill, meaning you wouldn't be able to proc another Ravage cd until Shatter comes off cd again anyways.

2. That's not really a big deal as its only an issue at the very start of a fight, but I'd say yes because you want to get 5 stacks of sunder on the target as quickly as possible as it benefits your entire raid.

3. I think strafing back for a saber throw and charge would be a decent option, I do it when needed in boss fights, and it usually isn't needed very often.

1. I'd say no, because there is a 9 second internal cd limit in the skill, meaning you wouldn't be able to proc another Ravage cd until Shatter comes off cd again anyways.

 

2. That's not really a big deal as its only an issue at the very start of a fight, but I'd say yes because you want to get 5 stacks of sunder on the target as quickly as possible as it benefits your entire raid.

 

3. I think strafing back for a saber throw and charge would be a decent option, I do it when needed in boss fights, and it usually isn't needed very often.

I like to intercede out to ranged dps if I really need rage that way I can saber throw and jump right back in and I'm also lowering threat and reducing damage to that ranged dps and I don't waste time having to run backwards.

I like to intercede out to ranged dps if I really need rage that way I can saber throw and jump right back in and I'm also lowering threat and reducing damage to that ranged dps and I don't waste time having to run backwards.

I think that interceding, saber throwing and then charging back in would be a significant DPS loss. That's 3 GCD that generate at most maybe 3k damage if you crit the saber throw and force charge. Whereas if you were to use that on say Sundering Armor, Impale and Shatter you should be doing at least about 5k+ even if you don't crit all your moves. (Of course numbers are dependant and gear and the target's armor/mitigation)

I think if you're trying to maximise your DPS then you need to avoid that situation where possible and stick with the rotation but obviously if you really are that low on rage then it might be necessary. However, once you have the 4 piece PvE set bonus you no longer need to be at 10m to use your saber throw to generate rage and can use it in your rage recovery rotation like in the video.

I think that interceding, saber throwing and then charging back in would be a significant DPS loss. That's 3 GCD that generate at most maybe 3k damage if you crit the saber throw and force charge. Whereas if you were to use that on say Sundering Armor, Impale and Shatter you should be doing at least about 5k+ even if you don't crit all your moves. (Of course numbers are dependant and gear and the target's armor/mitigation)

 

I think if you're trying to maximise your DPS then you need to avoid that situation where possible and stick with the rotation but obviously if you really are that low on rage then it might be necessary. However, once you have the 4 piece PvE set bonus you no longer need to be at 10m to use your saber throw to generate rage and can use it in your rage recovery rotation like in the video.

I rarely am that rage starved so it's an at most once per fight thing usually not at all. Also I'd prefer being in range to saber throw or charge instantly over having to run back if I absolutely needed to build rage.

I think that interceding, saber throwing and then charging back in would be a significant DPS loss. That's 3 GCD that generate at most maybe 3k damage if you crit the saber throw and force charge. Whereas if you were to use that on say Sundering Armor, Impale and Shatter you should be doing at least about 5k+ even if you don't crit all your moves. (Of course numbers are dependant and gear and the target's armor/mitigation)

 

I think if you're trying to maximise your DPS then you need to avoid that situation where possible and stick with the rotation but obviously if you really are that low on rage then it might be necessary. However, once you have the 4 piece PvE set bonus you no longer need to be at 10m to use your saber throw to generate rage and can use it in your rage recovery rotation like in the video.

However at high end mini-maxing, many dps juggs are sacrificing the 4 piece set bonus for augmented gear with + str, so the close quarters saber throw to replenish rage is no longer available. I myself have done this and I find that rage depletion is still not too much of a problem as long as i keep the sunders up and drop an occasional smash and assault when the 3 main dps abilities are on CD. I find that as melee we are on the move a lot anyway and the 5 or so saber throws + force jumps (with some exceptions) combined with one or perhaps two enrages roughly per encounter more than covers the loss of the set bonus.

All things considered, if you have to intercede out and then throw and jump back in it's not the end of the world. So you lose a few GCDs - as long as this is not a habit and a once-per-encounter thing I doubt it will affect your over-all dps too badly. Part of the fun of these things is to react to a particular situation and adapt accordingly. Sometimes the intercede can be a prudent thing, such as interceding away from Gharj when he is about to pounce and then leaping back in. Just don't intercede over the minefield in EC ...

I know it's not your video, but would you happen to know if

 

1. you stop the Bleed Rotation if ravage procs on shatter? That way you can ravage, then impale again for another chance to proc?

2. Do you still start the ravage rotation with sundering assault if you open with a saber throw -> Charge (since saber throw can be spec'd to add sundering armor)?

3. If we don't have the 4 piece bonus is there an alternate to the rage recovery rotation? Is it worth moving back (via strafing sideways) a bit to get the throw off and use a charge while at it? Seems like it would be a slight DPS loss.

 

EDIT: Don't know why I didn't think of this before, I'll post the questions on youtube as well

1. I agree with wadecounty.

2. Yes, as wadecounty says you want to try and get as close to 5 sunders on the target as possible. This may not always be possible but I would say the more the merrier as it benefits the DPS in your raid as a whole and not just you personally.

3. Please see my post above.

I just use a lazy rotation of (Toss+Charge)-> Ravage/Shatter/Smash/Sunder/Impale/Scream/Sunder ->repeat. If ravage doesn't proc, i'll lose some dps filling the gap with a force choke, or a push+attack, or attack+v.slash.

On the one hand, not using Impale/Scream every 9s loses me some dps, on the other, you can pretty much spin this forever with no loss until V.throw spamming comes up, which enrage should be stockpiled for.

About OP question. Yes, DPS Juggernaut is more than viable for PVE.

For example I still use Rage spec DPS in PVE, mainly 8 man ops and in HM FPs when there is nothing else to do, i don't PVP since 1.2. My build is 3/7/31 and I find it very powerfull in ops/FPs.

Gear wise nothing new, Power, Crit, Surge, getting rid of accuracy where i can.

I got comparison, as juggernaut I've played full and hybrid (Imm/Ven and Imm/Rage) tank spec, played full veng dps, veng/rage dps hybrid (before 1.1.5? when Force Alacrity was still in Rage tree, there was a nice hybrid with 6s CD Scream) and pure Rage spec, basicly all with PVP/PVE variations on minor skills over last 6 months.

This being said I still find Rage spec my favorite Juggernaut dps flavor in PVE.

(most of standard and silver mobs/adds have around 5k health in HMs, guess how many smashes you need to kill whole pack)

Only real drawback is that you cannot use Soresu as dps jugger, it would be complete threat disaster.

Yep, still clear HM EC and Nightmare Pilgrim each week. The only class I end up lagging behind is our marauder (who has a set of fully augmented campaign stuff while I lazily run around in unaugmented stuff), I'm only ever behind by 30-50k (depending on the fight), so I suppose if I stopped being lazy and actually augmented I'd be right up there with him.

(He pulls an average 1600-1800, peaking at 1950 at his highest while I hit 1400-1750 on average and peak at 1880).

DPS Juggs are perfectly viable as long as you are geared, have the correct spec and can time your priority system/ rotation properly. The current preferred vengeance spec post 1.2 is 2/32/7. In full rakata you should expect to push around 1500/1600 dps when you have a static (more or less) target.

 

See this video for a very easy to follow guide:

.

 

Our problem is not that we are bad dps, but that we don't offer enough raid utlity compared to marauders who have, for instance, predation which buffs the entire raid.

 

EDIT: fixed the link

Thanks for the great guide! Can't wait to get home and try it out.

I have a couple questions:

1. As long as you have the 4-pc bonus it seems like saber throw is better than assault in every way esp. if talented. Why not prioritize saber throw in the "filler" rotation with FS and then have assault in the "rage generation" rotation? Unless maybe the filler rotation is needed more often than saber throw comes off cooldown. Maybe then just have a priority system of ST > Assault > Smash to be in that position as well as the two GCD's after SA in the "rage generation rotation"

2. Once vicious throw comes online how does that factor in to the rotations/priority system? Would it just take the place of force scream? Would the priority still be Ravage > Ravage procs > VT rotation, or would the VT rotation have more priority?

Thanks!

Thanks for the great guide! Can't wait to get home and try it out.

 

I have a couple questions:

 

1. As long as you have the 4-pc bonus it seems like saber throw is better than assault in every way esp. if talented. Why not prioritize saber throw in the "filler" rotation with FS and then have assault in the "rage generation" rotation? Unless maybe the filler rotation is needed more often than saber throw comes off cooldown. Maybe then just have a priority system of ST > Assault > Smash to be in that position as well as the two GCD's after SA in the "rage generation rotation"

 

2. Once vicious throw comes online how does that factor in to the rotations/priority system? Would it just take the place of force scream? Would the priority still be Ravage > Ravage procs > VT rotation, or would the VT rotation have more priority?

 

 

Thanks!

I play a Vigilance Guardian but its the mirror of the Vengeance Jugg so I'll give my 2 cents.

1) You are correct. Most fights you will not be using your basic strike attack at all once you have the 4set bonus because the saber toss generates 1 more rage and does more damage

2) This is abit of a grey area for me too because target dummys dont allow me to test my execute phase dps. Generally, I prioritize Vicious Throw (the execute <30% ability) over everything else, even sundering strike. I usually have tons of rage so I will always use Vicious Throw and I will always have the buff up because I will only ever use Shatter and Impale: no more Force Screams.

Basically my rotation will be something along the lines of:

Vicious Throw ----> Sunder ---> Shatter ---> Impale ---> Vicious Throw ---->Sunder ---> XXXXXXXXXXXX

Problem with this is that I dont usually use Ravagae at all anymore and instead use Strike and saber toss to build up rage when I get low.....I have no idea if this is a dps loss or not but its the onyl way I can prioritize Vicious Throw which hits like a truck :/

End-game ops as a DPS Juggernaut is absolutely viable damage wise. One of our best DPSers in HM EC is a Juggy DPS, and he brings not only dps but a lot of utility to the raid. For one his overall mitigation is higher then the other classes, he hits just as hard if not harder, and he can also pop tank stance and throw in a taunt in a tight situation (HM Kephess for example if a maintank goes down and we need a taunt during Breath), he can easily run to the other side of the room and taunt, buying precious seconds while popping his defensive cooldowns, and even eat a few hits. So overall yes, very much so.

Just thought I'd like to toss in the fact that DPS Juggs don't actually have to switch into the tank stance to taunt/aoe taunt. The tanking stance is only required for guard.

Whilte true, Kephess will probably hit you once or twice even if you are on the otherside of the room and trying to kite him while your tank gets battleressed and healed up. I, for one, would most definitely pop tank stance for the extra 6% dmg reduction.....

In case you didnt know, Kephess hits like a truck on rockets.

Just thought I'd like to toss in the fact that DPS Juggs don't actually have to switch into the tank stance to taunt/aoe taunt. The tanking stance is only required for guard.

Yes I am well aware, thanks for pointing that out though . I was simply stating that that's usually what our DPS Jugg does when he taunts Kephess, that guy tends to hit pretty hard and the ability to boost your armor rating on the fly is what I was referring to when I spoke of utility.

Again, this isn't a strategy we plan around, but it has happened once or twice when one of our MT's don't get the taunt off quick enough during Breath or make a mistake on the AOE drops, and gets killed. It's just nice to know you have a DPS there to take a few hits in the event all hell breaks loose.

Thanks for the great guide! Can't wait to get home and try it out.

 

I have a couple questions:

 

1. As long as you have the 4-pc bonus it seems like saber throw is better than assault in every way esp. if talented. Why not prioritize saber throw in the "filler" rotation with FS and then have assault in the "rage generation" rotation? Unless maybe the filler rotation is needed more often than saber throw comes off cooldown. Maybe then just have a priority system of ST > Assault > Smash to be in that position as well as the two GCD's after SA in the "rage generation rotation"

 

2. Once vicious throw comes online how does that factor in to the rotations/priority system? Would it just take the place of force scream? Would the priority still be Ravage > Ravage procs > VT rotation, or would the VT rotation have more priority?

 

 

Thanks!

Glad you like the video. I can't take credit for the guide as it is not mine; it was actually posted on the mmo mechanics forum by another SW Juggernaut (all credit to Crash857) and I really liked its simplicity - I find it very useful as a basic guide (that can be tweaked depending on play style) to playing vengeance and getting high dps numbers. Remember dont be disheartened if you're not getting 1500 numbers on a ship dummy. On the dummy you will likely be doing ~1300 dps due to the lack of any external buffs, VT rotations (where our damage can really spike upwards) etc. so that should be a good number to aim for if you are in full pre 1.3 augmented rakata + self buffs and rakata stim. If you are in Campaign gear then you can prob try for 1400-1500. If you are getting those kind of numbers on the dummy then you are way up in top dps territory and have absolutely nothing to worry about in ops from a dps stand point.

Sorry for rambling, your questions:

1. I would absolutely prioritise ST in most cases if you have the 4 piece but it's CD often does not allow this so hence the filler rotation when all your main damage abilities are on CD, incl ST. There is no absolute rule with those two rotations (filler and rage), just your own judgment as to when is best.

2. In the last 30% VT becomes the priority ability, so ideally you want to use it as soon as it comes off CD. Something like VT > Ravage (if off CD) > SA > VT > Shatter > Impale > SA > VT > Enrage (if needed) > Ravage (if off CD) > SA > VT etc and making sure you have an Enrage off CD too to help you out so you dont waste cooldowns by using rage gaining abilities other than SA and the ocassional ST if you have the 4 piece that is.

Glad you like the video. I can't take credit for the guide as it is not mine; it was actually posted on the mmo mechanics forum by another SW Juggernaut (all credit to Crash857) and I really liked its simplicity - I find it very useful as a basic guide (that can be tweaked depending on play style) to playing vengeance and getting high dps numbers. Remember dont be disheartened if you're not getting 1500 numbers on a ship dummy. On the dummy you will likely be doing ~1300 dps due to the lack of any external buffs, VT rotations (where our damage can really spike upwards) etc. so that should be a good number to aim for if you are in full pre 1.3 augmented rakata + self buffs and rakata stim. If you are in Campaign gear then you can prob try for 1400-1500. If you are getting those kind of numbers on the dummy then you are way up in top dps territory and have absolutely nothing to worry about in ops from a dps stand point.

 

Sorry for rambling, your questions:

 

1. I would absolutely prioritise ST in most cases if you have the 4 piece but it's CD often does not allow this so hence the filler rotation when all your main damage abilities are on CD, incl ST. There is no absolute rule with those two rotations (filler and rage), just your own judgment as to when is best.

 

2. In the last 30% VT becomes the priority ability, so ideally you want to use it as soon as it comes off CD. Something like VT > Ravage (if off CD) > SA > VT > Shatter > Impale > SA > VT > Enrage (if needed) > Ravage (if off CD) > SA > VT etc and making sure you have an Enrage off CD too to help you out so you dont waste cooldowns by using rage gaining abilities other than SA and the ocassional ST if you have the 4 piece that is.

Newb Q - How are you getting DPS (ie 1300) from the training dummy? When I upload my combat log after practicing on the dummy I just get total damage from askmrrobot. What am I missing?

Thanks again for referencing the guide btw, I mainly PvP so I've only gone on a total of 3 raids, the last one which was earlier this week, I tried out this rotation and it made things much easier. Although I did scroo up and died early twice so my DPS was 4th once everybody got their logs up. But I'm confident I couldve got at least 2nd if I stayed upright, just one of those things where I wasn't familiar with the fight - kinda like not popping a CD or CC when you see a marauder with glowing hands