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KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.11.2014 , 07:55 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by DogEyedBoy View Post
What happened to the set bonus providing 4 stacks upon using Force Pull? Stacks still don't fall off, but it'd make me feel a bit better about pulling with Crushing Darkness.
This is why you don't trust data mining. :-) In any case, CD does less damage than Project. It's not worth using at all as a tank, even in the opener. Pull does far, far more threat, and opening with pull from stealth guarantees you don't lose your stacks in the opener.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

DogEyedBoy's Avatar


DogEyedBoy
12.11.2014 , 08:07 PM | #102
CD now has a 30 metre range, making it useful for some pulls.

archieTevidor's Avatar


archieTevidor
12.12.2014 , 12:31 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by DogEyedBoy View Post
CD now has a 30 metre range, making it useful for some pulls.
Still not. Force Pull giving much more threat. Before 3.0 it gave more that 8k threat (in 1 GCD), CD will give less and it wont be per 1 GCD = more chances to loose aggro to some dps. Ofc if you're tanking with pugs-dps who doesnt know how to play his spec correctly or heavy undergeared - then doesnt matter how u'll start fight but in normal group you have to start from Force Pull.
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johnbgood's Avatar


johnbgood
12.12.2014 , 04:41 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
This is why you don't trust data mining. :-) In any case, CD does less damage than Project. It's not worth using at all as a tank, even in the opener. Pull does far, far more threat, and opening with pull from stealth guarantees you don't lose your stacks in the opener.
including the dot portion of CD it's more damage than a non-crit project. i don't understand why you are comparing the damage of the two, CD doesn't hinder you from using project after force pull.

when opening CD -> force pull -> project -> slow time ... you are not loosing the stacks as long as you make it into 10 meter range within the GCD of force pull, even if no particle acceleration procs before the first cascading debris. at least in a perfect world without knockbacks or stuns.

DogEyedBoy's Avatar


DogEyedBoy
12.12.2014 , 09:42 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by archieTevidor View Post
Still not. Force Pull giving much more threat. Before 3.0 it gave more that 8k threat (in 1 GCD), CD will give less and it wont be per 1 GCD = more chances to loose aggro to some dps. Ofc if you're tanking with pugs-dps who doesnt know how to play his spec correctly or heavy undergeared - then doesnt matter how u'll start fight but in normal group you have to start from Force Pull.
You're confused. I'm talking about using Crushing Darkness before Force Pull, not in place of it. The cast time of Crushing Darkness means it hits at the same time as Force Pull.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.12.2014 , 02:17 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by DogEyedBoy View Post
You're confused. I'm talking about using Crushing Darkness before Force Pull, not in place of it. The cast time of Crushing Darkness means it hits at the same time as Force Pull.
Hmm, for whatever reason, I didn't consider that. I have two minor-ish concerns about this opener.

First, Shadow Protection stacks. The duration on the stacks opening from stealth is 12 seconds, we need 9 seconds to proc into our first Cascading Debris opening with just Force Pull, so adding a 2 second Mind Crush cast pushes that up to 11 seconds. Doable, but without a margin for error. Tank openers don't have a margin for error anyway, so…meh? Probably a non-issue.

My second concern is that 40 force is a LOT of force, especially if you're dealing with a boss that doesn't hit very rapidly or very early. We regenerate 15.6 of that cost over the Force Pull GCD (assuming a melee boss), so we're hitting the boss at a deficit of 24.4, or almost exactly a quarter of our pool. That's not too bad, honestly. It certainly leaves us with enough force to complete our opener and get to our second taunt. I think that, depending on the boss, we might run into trouble getting to the third taunt though.

Overall, I think it's a good idea, and probably applicable to most bosses. I'm going to start playing with it to see how it treats me. Timing with precast openers and things might get slightly tricky, but it shouldn't be any harder than timing a precast opener across classes. It's basically more free threat in the opener with very little downside.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

Kalispa's Avatar


Kalispa
12.16.2014 , 10:56 AM | #107
There was never any doubt on whether the Sins/ shadows have enough time to refresh the stacks. The case we seem to be making and you keep ignoring is that in most fights where the tank has more to do then stand in one spot and refresh his DR buff, the 12 seconds stack timer is a bit tight. There should be either a longer counter or something we can do to one punch reset the timer or 4%. Discharge would probably work well for that sort of idea.
Possibly even have the first tick of Force lightning build the entire 4%.

Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
12.16.2014 , 12:02 PM | #108
On the subject of Dark Protection stack maintenance, I have some questions for the any Assassin/Shadow tank:

What is your uptime on Dark Protection during the Sword Squadron fight?
How does this uptime compare to the rotation acquired buffs of other tanking classes during that fight?


My experience is that I have no issues gaining Dark Protection when I am on Unit 2, but when I switch to Unit 1 the stacks usually fall off while I am kiting Rapid Fire circles on the ground. However, my cotank is a Jug; 2 out of 3 of his rotational buff moves require 4 meter range, so he can't use them at all while kiting. Therefore, I don't feel that my Assassin tank is at a disadvantage considering the problems that other tanks would have maintaining their buffs in the same fight. if you have numbers to show this is not the case, I would love to see them.

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
12.16.2014 , 12:42 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
There was never any doubt on whether the Sins/ shadows have enough time to refresh the stacks. The case we seem to be making and you keep ignoring is that in most fights where the tank has more to do then stand in one spot and refresh his DR buff, the 12 seconds stack timer is a bit tight. There should be either a longer counter or something we can do to one punch reset the timer or 4%. Discharge would probably work well for that sort of idea.
Possibly even have the first tick of Force lightning build the entire 4%.
It's called Force Cloak, which doesn't even reduce your healing now.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.16.2014 , 05:23 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
There was never any doubt on whether the Sins/ shadows have enough time to refresh the stacks. The case we seem to be making and you keep ignoring is that in most fights where the tank has more to do then stand in one spot and refresh his DR buff, the 12 seconds stack timer is a bit tight.
I'm not ignoring that case. What I'm saying is that it isn't applicable. Do shadows/assassins need to think a bit more about the timing of their rotation with respect to mechanics and various swing timers? Yes, absolutely. If you don't like this fact, play a different class. It's far from impossible though, and once you get the timing of a particular fight, it's not even that hard.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
There should be either a longer counter or something we can do to one punch reset the timer or 4%. Discharge would probably work well for that sort of idea.
So…Force Cloak?

Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
Possibly even have the first tick of Force lightning build the entire 4%.
It does unless you've allowed your stacks to fall off. Because of this fact, it's possible to maintain your stacks even on the most mobile of fights, since you can always safely break your channel.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
What is your uptime on Dark Protection during the Sword Squadron fight?
Fairly good. I would have to break out StarParse to give you an exact number, but in general I only lose my stacks when swapping at an inopportune time or when I have to adjust to give someone a bit more space on Grav Missile.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
How does this uptime compare to the rotation acquired buffs of other tanking classes during that fight?
Vanguards have better uptime (surprise)! Guardians have worse, since the amount of time you can spend just hanging out in melee range is surprisingly low.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
My experience is that I have no issues gaining Dark Protection when I am on Unit 2, but when I switch to Unit 1 the stacks usually fall off while I am kiting Rapid Fire circles on the ground. However, my cotank is a Jug; 2 out of 3 of his rotational buff moves require 4 meter range, so he can't use them at all while kiting. Therefore, I don't feel that my Assassin tank is at a disadvantage considering the problems that other tanks would have maintaining their buffs in the same fight. if you have numbers to show this is not the case, I would love to see them.
I primarily tank Unit 1, and while Rapid Fire can be annoying, it's not actually a major issue. I forget the exact duration of the channel, but I think it's right around 5 seconds. If you time it out right, it's actually not that hard to keep up your stacks despite the run 'round. The important thing is to be able to loop back into range for Project/Shock so that you can use it on CD.

The biggest problem with shadows/assassins in this fight, honestly, is the fact that once Unit 1's shield goes up, you can't build Shadow Protection anymore. This results in a LOT of lost mitigation. But of course, this has nothing to do with movement, it's just a poorly designed mechanic.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017