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Sin Tank - Clarification on stat caps


Darth_Caedes

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Hello,

 

I've been pouring through some of the pages here and I'm a little confused on Assassin tank stat goals as I see many different opinions spanning between last year and the year before.

 

Should Sin tanks be looking at 25% Defense, 65% Shield, and 60% Absorb? I've seen others mention that 30% Defense is the way but I'm not too sure. I've seen other posts stating that you'll lose too much endurance if you aim for 65% shield and 60% absorb but I'm a believer of mitigation over an endurance cushion.

 

Can anyone light my path?

 

Caedes

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Can anyone light my path?

 

First off, I'll assuage your worries concerning not having enough Endurance if you go for a lot of mitigation: you'll get all of the hp you *need* naturally, just improving your gear. By "need" I refer to ~25k for 8m and 26-27k for 16m. Anything more than those numbers for the relevant group size is redundant and just exists as either epeen or a "don't freak out" cushion for your healers (good healers won't freak out when you drop to 5k hp because they'll realize you just took a big hit and it's not an "omg, tank is gonna die!" moment).

 

Secondly, the basic goal numbers for a Shadow tank in aug'd BH/Camp gear is 30/65/60. Those numbers go up slightly depending on your choice of relics (passive Defense relic is gonna push your defense up a percentage point or two) and a bit more when you hit DG/Hazmat tier (my tank stats, without using any passive relics, are ~31.5/67/62).

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First off, I'll assuage your worries concerning not having enough Endurance if you go for a lot of mitigation: you'll get all of the hp you *need* naturally, just improving your gear. By "need" I refer to ~25k for 8m and 26-27k for 16m. Anything more than those numbers for the relevant group size is redundant and just exists as either epeen or a "don't freak out" cushion for your healers (good healers won't freak out when you drop to 5k hp because they'll realize you just took a big hit and it's not an "omg, tank is gonna die!" moment).

 

Secondly, the basic goal numbers for a Shadow tank in aug'd BH/Camp gear is 30/65/60. Those numbers go up slightly depending on your choice of relics (passive Defense relic is gonna push your defense up a percentage point or two) and a bit more when you hit DG/Hazmat tier (my tank stats, without using any passive relics, are ~31.5/67/62).

 

Thank you for the feedback, it's greatly appreciated.

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I do not have my spread sheet in front of me but I can tell you my stats which are as close to optimal as attainable as far as keeping stat weights even.

28.4k hp

29% defence.

66 shield

61 absorb

 

If I remember correctly the stat weights are just about even at that point. My mitigation is not as high as kintrus because due to my guild running 16 man ops regularly (nm EC, him tfb) and to the fact as the shadows self heal being a part if our mitigation I've taken the 27b mods in my dread guard gear giving me the endurance needed for 16 man nm EC as well as upping my HPS which in and of itself was a more effective form of mitigation then raw mitigation because of their soft caps.

 

Generally considered optimal stats in full dread guard with 1 elite war hero def. Relic and a DG healing relic are:

28.4k HP

30% def

66-67% shield

And 61-62 absorb.

 

Hope this was helpful good luck out there

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as well as upping my HPS which in and of itself was a more effective form of mitigation then raw mitigation because of their soft caps.

 

With 28.4k hp rather than 25k hp, you're managing all of 18 hp/sec extra, which isn't as much as you think, especially considering your lower Defense (I'm managing a higher Defense chance *without* using a passive PvP relic and I'll end up with higher Abs thanks to the tanking proc relic I use). You're also going to have substantially worse threat generation and DPS compared to me because I've not only opted to maximize my mitigation by using unlettered mods and high shield enhs but also minimized my Endurance by using Resolve hilts and armoring and Power crystals (my threat is well and truly disgusting; DPS burn their CDs and adrenals right from the start and I've still only had threat pulled off of me twice ever, and that was only for a split second in the opening volley of the fight). If I swapped out my Resolve armorings and hilt for Force Wielder and crystals for Endurance, my set up would go up to 26.5k hp, which is enough for 16m. There's no real need to get more hp than that.

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With 28.4k hp rather than 25k hp, you're managing all of 18 hp/sec extra, which isn't as much as you think

 

Assuming 2k pre-mitigation weapon DPS (a fairly average value for a boss) and 30/65/60 defensive stats and 40% DR from armor. That's a post-mitigation DPS of 512. 18 HPS is a reduction of 3.5% on this value, which is equivalent to an added 2.46% defense chance, which is an additional 135 defense rating (assuming a base rating of 510, which is required to achieve 30% defense chance with all talents). This weighs against the 311 Endurance required to achieve the jump between 25k and 28.4k.

 

Unfortunately, things are not quite as clear cut as the above paragraph indicates. For starters, we're talking about swapping defense for endurance at a better-than 1:1 ratio on the 27B mods. Specifically, the ratio is 11:5 (endurance:defense). Thus, we aren't trading 311 defense for 311 endurance; we are trading 141 defense for 311 endurance. That puts the numbers very, very close even in this (highly simplified model).

 

The other very important thing to consider though is that only 69% of damage in the current top-tier endgame is subject to defense. This makes the calculation significantly more complex, so I'm going to leave it for now, but I think it's safe to say that it will make more than a 6 stat-point difference in the final outcome, and not in favor of defense.

 

In other words, 18 HPS is exactly as much as I think it is, and I think it's quite a lot. Even from a pragmatic mitigation stacking standpoint, where the goal is to reduce requisite HPS, the B mods are unquestionably best in slot. Once you add to this the fact that Endurance *does* add a healer cushion (of debatable, but clearly non-zero value), it seems very clear that this is the correct itemization for shadow tanks. I would *not* recommend the same approach for guardians or vanguards though.

 

You're also going to have substantially worse threat generation and DPS compared to me because I've not only opted to maximize my mitigation by using unlettered mods and high shield enhs but also minimized my Endurance by using Resolve hilts and armoring and Power crystals (my threat is well and truly disgusting; DPS burn their CDs and adrenals right from the start and I've still only had threat pulled off of me twice ever, and that was only for a split second in the opening volley of the fight).

 

I don't know about Jaberse, but my DPS is always comfortably above 750, and often pushing 800. Based on your response on an earlier thread, I understand that you have more DPS (as well you should, with your itemization), but not *substantially* more. Even at 800 DPS, I have no idea how you hold agro in the opening volley of every fight without using guard and/or taunt. Once you factor in threat multipliers on abilities, 800 DPS corresponds to about 1950 TPS. That's very solid, but my Combat Sentinel breaks 2.4k DPS for the first 15 seconds of every fight (w/ Adrenal, Inspiration and average crits). Even with a guard, that's a pretty close call on threat. Without a guard, I would be face tanking within seconds of hitting the boss. I really would very, very much like to meet you on the PTS sometime, because I honestly would love to know *how* you can keep threat without guard/taunt against that kind of onslaught.

 

In any case, trading willpower for endurance *obviously* results in a loss of threat, but based on the DPS numbers, it's just not as significant as you're making it out to be.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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I don't know about Jaberse, but my DPS is always comfortably above 750, and often pushing 800.

 

800 is my lowball DPS number. A lot of the current fights have DPS downtime and whatnot that prevent me from actually getting my full DPS on over the entire course of a fight. On Writhing Horror, where I don't get to AoE whatsoever and, in fact, based on my guild's strat, actually forces me to stand still and do nothing for 10 seconds every couple of minutes (to let the Incubation stacks fall off without summoning adds by using Force Cloak), I still break 800 DPS (I use MoX's parser so the combat stealth doesn't screw up the parse DPS info; I'll actually watch my listed DPS drop while I'm just standing there).

 

The difference between getting 750 dps and 800 is a difference of 6.67%. If you consider the fact that 800 is my *lowball* and I could probably push 850 if it were pure tank and spank without aggressive movement etc. whereas most other tanks list their 750 *as the pure tank/spank case*, it becomes a difference of 13.3% difference. Both of those are remarkably substantial when you consider the percentage differences in total damage/threat generation, so I feel pretty comfortable saying it's a "substantial difference" (not to mention that I've run with other full 63 tanks, Shadows included, and, if I'm not the first tank, I *will* pull threat within the first 30 seconds without using taunt).

 

I understand the hp-as-mitigation-through-increasing-self-healing argument, but I just don't see the gains as being particularly relevant compared to all of the problems with threat generation and DPS throttling that go along with it, especially when doing some comes at the cost of direct mitigation, which is why I don't support using the B variant mods. Force Wielder Armorings and Hilt, I can understand (and generally recommend for people that aren't quite as crazy as me), but B variants are directly reducing both your threat generation and direct mitigation to increase your hp and self-healing-as mitigation. As such, I don't see the point.

 

Of course, as long as you're not using Fortitude augments to push yourself to 30k+ hp, I'm not likely to make a point of it (since that's explicitly suboptimal and serves only to bolster epeen rather than effectiveness). I prefer the holistic approach to tank itemization rather than just focusing on staying alive, but, considering the laughable state of post-start-of-combat threat in TOR, I can understand focusing entirely on mitigation even if it does come at the cost of threat.

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I understand the hp-as-mitigation-through-increasing-self-healing argument, but I just don't see the gains as being particularly relevant compared to all of the problems with threat generation and DPS throttling that go along with it, especially when doing some comes at the cost of direct mitigation, which is why I don't support using the B variant mods. Force Wielder Armorings and Hilt, I can understand (and generally recommend for people that aren't quite as crazy as me), but B variants are directly reducing both your threat generation and direct mitigation to increase your hp and self-healing-as mitigation. As such, I don't see the point.

 

Of course, as long as you're not using Fortitude augments to push yourself to 30k+ hp, I'm not likely to make a point of it (since that's explicitly suboptimal and serves only to bolster epeen rather than effectiveness). I prefer the holistic approach to tank itemization rather than just focusing on staying alive, but, considering the laughable state of post-start-of-combat threat in TOR, I can understand focusing entirely on mitigation even if it does come at the cost of threat.

 

The bolded is pretty key, in my opinion. Threat is so trivial that I don't see prioritizing DPS as a big concern, at least not in situations where gear actually *matters*. There are very few situations you *can't* taunt-stack at the start of a boss fight to establish an insurmountable base of hate in the first 15 seconds.

 

I think the B-mods-as-optimal argument does play if your healers don't consign a major part of self-healing to the overhealing bin, and if you are efficient at maximizing HS/HD stack generation. If you don't prioritize maximizing self-healing, I would totally stick with unlettered mods.

 

I would tend to gear very similarly to Tam, but the co-tank I run with is much more comfortable in full mitigation. He makes less efficient use of his CDs and self-healing, so the higher passive mitigation does help keep his DTPS closer to my own. I'd rather trade off a small amount of mitigation pool for better mitigation against all damage types (via self heals).

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I find this a very interesting discussion since my Sin is in line with Keyboardninja's build and my Shadow is in line with Kitru's. I always gear them differently so that I can compare the two, because I have always loved this debate.

(I will even admit to at one point trying a 30K+ type build....but that was more out of a sick and morbid curiosity than anything. My healers have never let me live it down either :p)

 

 

Seeing as I play them both pretty equally (as far as time and content played), my question becomes....Is there a happy medium between the two?

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my question becomes....Is there a happy medium between the two?

 

Honestly, there isn't really any major difference between the two other than ideology. As I pointed out, the difference in actual HP is less than you might think, especially if you're using Force Wielder armorings/hilt already. Even the differences in real mitigation is minor at best. The argument simply persists based upon ideological lines even though the differences are miniscule.

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Honestly, there isn't really any major difference between the two other than ideology. As I pointed out, the difference in actual HP is less than you might think, especially if you're using Force Wielder armorings/hilt already. Even the differences in real mitigation is minor at best. The argument simply persists based upon ideological lines even though the differences are miniscule.

 

Exactly. Kitru and I are both equally capable of clearing all the content in the game, and neither of us is going to be significantly (or even noticeably) gimped on anything we attempt. There are some things that he will find easier (e.g. holding initial threat on taunt-constrained bosses, such as Stormcaller), and there are some things that I will find easier (e.g. taking the bleed on Kephess). These are semantics though. As he said, we're just debating ideology at this point.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Agreed.

As I said, I have and play both. From that I really don't notice any difference between the two. The only thing that has ever really separated them for me is the healers. My healers say that the 28k version is easier for them. And that's just a result of individual play styles. (as stated a couple posts up)

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Tam I'm pushing 770 most of the time with obvious exceptions. My latest writhing horror was 755. And I spent a bit of time in the floor cause we were taking a new healer through that just dinged 50 lol!

 

And in other news a shadow from army of light was giving me **** for using a healing relic and called me a fool cause its impossible to proc it on yourself. What a silly guy lol. He was also saying 25% 70% and 58% were optimal shadow tank stats.

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And in other news a shadow from army of light was giving me ****

 

I've met brand spanking new Shadow tanks (re: they had just hit 50 and asked for advice in fleet general) that, after being told everything there is to know about Shadow tanking (attack priority, stat ratios, etc.) that I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. I've also been told by pug tanks *and healers* that I'm obviously doing it wrong since I only have 23.5k hp when I'm not using an Exotech stim (it pushes up to 25k with, which is where I *like* it); I always end up laughing because, inevitably, I'm the one forced to main tank because they can't generate threat for crap, and they're the ones that drop because the healers couldn't keep them up.

 

I've never expected much out of the intelligence of random people. At best, you can expect them to take your advice quietly; at worst, you can expect them to call you an idiot even though they have no idea what they're talking about.

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First off, I'll assuage your worries concerning not having enough Endurance if you go for a lot of mitigation: you'll get all of the hp you *need* naturally, just improving your gear. By "need" I refer to ~25k for 8m and 26-27k for 16m. Anything more than those numbers for the relevant group size is redundant and just exists as either epeen or a "don't freak out" cushion for your healers (good healers won't freak out when you drop to 5k hp because they'll realize you just took a big hit and it's not an "omg, tank is gonna die!" moment).

 

Secondly, the basic goal numbers for a Shadow tank in aug'd BH/Camp gear is 30/65/60. Those numbers go up slightly depending on your choice of relics (passive Defense relic is gonna push your defense up a percentage point or two) and a bit more when you hit DG/Hazmat tier (my tank stats, without using any passive relics, are ~31.5/67/62).

 

Quick question, when you mentioned the basic shield chance of 65%, is this with or without Dark Ward?

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yeah lol,

i just pulled up one of my parses for a Lost island HM i did today

and with my 28.3k HP

31.2% defence chance

66% shield chance

and 61% absorb

 

(note that this is without my healing relic since i only use that for F/T damge intensive fights)

 

i had an average DPS of 920 over the entire encounter.

an average HPS of 250 over the entire encounter (pitifully low since i prioritize my rotation to kill on trash not to maintain myself)

while sustaining a nominal 520 DPS incoming.

 

not to mention the encounter took us 18 minutes and 10 seconds from the first fight to the last lol.

 

not to shabby if i do say somyself

 

*edit* on the DR lorik fight alone i was at 890 DPS but this of course does not count.

Edited by haksilence
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Assuming 2k pre-mitigation weapon DPS (a fairly average value for a boss) and 30/65/60 defensive stats and 40% DR from armor. That's a post-mitigation DPS of 512. 18 HPS is a reduction of 3.5% on this value, which is equivalent to an added 2.46% defense chance, which is an additional 135 defense rating (assuming a base rating of 510, which is required to achieve 30% defense chance with all talents). This weighs against the 311 Endurance required to achieve the jump between 25k and 28.4k.

 

 

Ok....I follow your math upto the point where you convert the 3.5% reduction on DPS but not sure on how you get it to the 2.46% defense.

I'm asking because I'm trying to use the same logic with the Healing relic (which comes out roughly to 24 HPS.)

Give to me teh mathz, please (i went the lame route and just took the 135 and divided by the 18 to find the value of 1HPS. While that should get me roughly at the destination, I still don't have the full path)

 

note: I REALLY suck at teh mathz

Edited by Grumpftard
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Ok....I follow your math upto the point where you convert the 3.5% reduction on DPS but not sure on how you get it to the 2.46% defense.

 

Post mitigation DPS is ~512. 18 DPS 3.5% of 512 (you got this). The same 18 DPS, however, is identical to ~2.46 Defense though it requires some algebraic manipulation to see it easily: 2000 * (1-(.3+x))*(1-(.65*.6))*(1-.4) = (512-18); or 2.51 (I got 2.51 Defense rather than 2.46, but it's close enough to KeyboardNinja's for our purposes, especially since it's likely caused by some rounding errors).

Edited by Kitru
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Post mitigation DPS is ~512. 18 DPS 3.5% of 512 (you got this). The same 18 DPS, however, is identical to ~2.46 Defense though it requires some algebraic manipulation to see it easily: 2000 * (1-(.3+x))*(1-(.65*.6))*(1-.4) = (512-18); or 2.51 (I got 2.51 Defense rather than 2.46, but it's close enough to KeyboardNinja's for our purposes, especially since it's likely caused by some rounding errors).

That's what I needed...Thank you kindly

Edited by Grumpftard
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Update:

If you actually can prove the mitigational equivilant of healing and I calculated correctly (that's the dangerous part)...assuming maximum up-time at 25 HPS....the math would be...

2000 * (1-(.3+x))*(1-(.65*.6))*(1-.4) = (512-25); where x=0.0347 or 3.47%

Then the DG Ephemeral Mending is roughly the equivilant of having a relic with 189.6 Defense rating.

Easily best relic. (Unless I jacked this up)

 

caveat: I know there were some general assumptions involved in the calculating of 512 post mitigated DPS, so this won't be entirely exact in real-time application.

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Even at 800 DPS, I have no idea how you hold agro in the opening volley of every fight without using guard and/or taunt. Once you factor in threat multipliers on abilities, 800 DPS corresponds to about 1950 TPS. That's very solid, but my Combat Sentinel breaks 2.4k DPS for the first 15 seconds of every fight (w/ Adrenal, Inspiration and average crits). Even with a guard, that's a pretty close call on threat. Without a guard, I would be face tanking within seconds of hitting the boss. I really would very, very much like to meet you on the PTS sometime, because I honestly would love to know *how* you can keep threat without guard/taunt against that kind of onslaught.

I second this.

 

A min-maxed Combat Sent using a correct opening rotation, DG pop relic, Adrenal, and Inspiration, and no Guard? I'm not doubting Kitru per se, but I just don't understand how it can be done to be honest.

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A min-maxed Combat Sent using a correct opening rotation, DG pop relic, Adrenal, and Inspiration, and no Guard? I'm not doubting Kitru per se, but I just don't understand how it can be done to be honest.

 

First off, it should be noted that we don't have the DPS blow Inspiration right off the bat so they're not getting *that* (though I wouldn't put it past em on some of their runs). Also, I haven't run with a top tier Combat Sentinel so I don't have a decent frame of reference for their burst threat generation: I'm used to running with a Watchman Sentinel and an Assault VG. I will say that it's not necessary to actually outthreat someone to keep aggro off of them: if you jump in first, you only need to maintain 77% of their threat to keep aggro. At 2.5k burst threat generation, that's ~1925 TPS required of the tank, which is entirely possible for the first ~15 seconds of a fight (esp if you blow a power adrenal beforehand, FP with TkT, etc.).

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