All I have to say is, I'm embarrassed for the people responsible for keeping this thread alive. Last post here.

I've been called a no lifer for killing people in open world pvp but anyone trying to keep this going is way more a no lifer than I will ever be.

You're just participating on a PvP server, tbh.

Nothing wrong with that!

First off:

 

If you have ever ***** I hope you never do have to suffer through that, so don't ever *********** compare a fictional battlefield you willing entered a queue into to *********** *****! You said::

It's akin: in the same spirit of forced participation. It's like if you open an ice cream shop where half the clientele is sex predators looking for much more than just ice cream, and the other half of the clientele is just innocent people wanting to get a snow cone on a hot day and nothing else, but the police aren't there to keep the two groups separated, and the normal innocent people are like "hey this is crap, we're just here for ice cream and these guys want to sit at the same table and try to get personal." See, a valid complaint.

And the sex predators' argument is, "What, you don't like ice cream?"

What premades need to understand is that they are divisible from PVP. A person can still buy a product and want to use it, but not want to use it with them.

^ Awesome post of the day ^

It's akin: in the same spirit of forced participation. It's like if you open an ice cream shop where half the clientele is sex predators looking for much more than just ice cream, and the other half of the clientele is just innocent people wanting to get a snow cone on a hot day and nothing else, but the police aren't there to keep the two groups separated, and the normal innocent people are like "hey this is crap, we're just here for ice cream and these guys want to sit at the same table and try to get personal." See, a valid complaint.

 

And the sex predators' argument is, "What, you don't like ice cream?"

 

What premades need to understand is that they are divisible from PVP. A person can still buy a product and want to use it, but not want to use it with them.

 

^ Awesome post of the day ^

Yeah those normal people should stick together to avoid getting raped/murdered.

It's akin: in the same spirit of forced participation. It's like if you open an ice cream shop where half the clientele is sex predators looking for much more than just ice cream, and the other half of the clientele is just innocent people wanting to get a snow cone on a hot day and nothing else, but the police aren't there to keep the two groups separated, and the normal innocent people are like "hey this is crap, we're just here for ice cream and these guys want to sit at the same table and try to get personal." See, a valid complaint.

 

And the sex predators' argument is, "What, you don't like ice cream?"

 

What premades need to understand is that they are divisible from PVP. A person can still buy a product and want to use it, but not want to use it with them.

 

^ Awesome post of the day ^

Forced participation would mean you don't have a choice. Last I checked you don't have to participate if you don't like the game. No one can force you to like it.

If you wanted ice cream, but there was only chocolate and you hated chocolate, would you get chocolate ice cream just to get it?

You're not forced to play with premades because you aren't forced to queue at all. You chose to enter a queue knowing that groups are involved because there is no alternative. And you want what you can get whether you like it or not. Stop playing the victim.

how would you interpret the post that i quoted?

 

that poster suggests that my example be thrown out b/c it does not fit all the criteria of their complaint (pug group gets beaten badly). its not a "typical pug group", which is a statement i agree with; sadly the typical pug group is terrible.

Oh complaining that you used a biased screenshot to support your biased claim?

Pot meet kettle.

It's akin: in the same spirit of forced participation. It's like if you open an ice cream shop where half the clientele is sex predators looking for much more than just ice cream, and the other half of the clientele is just innocent people wanting to get a snow cone on a hot day and nothing else, but the police aren't there to keep the two groups separated, and the normal innocent people are like "hey this is crap, we're just here for ice cream and these guys want to sit at the same table and try to get personal." See, a valid complaint.

 

And the sex predators' argument is, "What, you don't like ice cream?"

 

What premades need to understand is that they are divisible from PVP. A person can still buy a product and want to use it, but not want to use it with them.

 

^ Awesome post of the day ^

what if i don't want healers in my wz, can we make a queue that doesn't have any healers? how about one with no people in conqueror gear?

The fact is that PvP is not perfectly fair, and in order to win people attempt to gain whatever advantage they can. People make premades in order to win more, you want to get premades in a seperate queue to win more, you are the same; whether you want to admit it or not.

You want match making right? Most people would love a better match making system one that makes sure both teams have healers, and within the same MMR range if TOR had one. Keep things fair and even.

 

Sadly we do not have the server population for that. I mean you think by now people would understand PC gaming by nature is unfair, and in extension PvP. This has everything to do with population no matter how you look at it, without cross server queue no form of viable match making can take place without hindering queue times.

 

Simple as that, no point trying to argue otherwise. Either way both aspects hurt the pvp community, but in the end I would rather have a queue and fight a much better team, then never get a queue at all.

I never wanted matchmaking.

I want separate queue's.

You're final point is something you choose though, you can't speak for others on what they would do with the same situation.

Yep you r sarcasm detector must be broken, we better get Anakin to fix it for you.. Cash already explained the point of my response... Try to find, mkay....

Re-read. You are failing.

Come back when you are ready.

what if i don't want healers in my wz, can we make a queue that doesn't have any healers? how about one with no people in conqueror gear?

The fact is that PvP is not perfectly fair, and in order to win people attempt to gain whatever advantage they can. People make premades in order to win more, you want to get premades in a seperate queue to win more, you are the same; whether you want to admit it or not.

Very good point.

That's the truth, we all want something out of this.

Difference is, I want to help the game. While the others are okay with a system that forces ranked teams off their own servers. You can even look how many premade supporters flat out tell people to leave the game...then complain about queue times.

Re-read. You are failing.

 

Come back when you are ready.

Nothing to reread. My response obviously went WAY over your head, and when I pointed out that Cash already responded to that same post, you should have been able to read the tea leaves on what my next two comments was about... One question though...

What does your monitor taste like?

Very good point.

 

That's the truth, we all want something out of this.

 

Difference is, I want to help the game. While the others are okay with a system that forces ranked teams off their own servers. You can even look how many premade supporters flat out tell people to leave the game...then complain about queue times.

seperate queue will end up killing off any casual grouping, because they will be put into a near ranked level wz, which is worse than fighting a single premade. so, you are moving the problem from casual solo queue to casual groups. Not to mention that queues will take longer because you are dividing the total pool into 2.

Another problem is 3 person teams. Basically, you will either need another 3 person team or 5 person team if there is a seperate queue.

So it goes from "form a premade if you want to win more" to "if you want to play with your friends, you better have the right number, and a high level of gear and skill, otherwise you will just get killed repeatedly or sit in queue." All while taking longer for games to start. So how is this an improvement?

seperate queue will end up killing off any casual grouping, because they will be put into a near ranked level wz, which is worse than fighting a single premade. so, you are moving the problem from casual solo queue to casual groups. Not to mention that queues will take longer because you are dividing the total pool into 2.

Another problem is 3 person teams. Basically, you will either need another 3 person team or 5 person team if there is a seperate queue.

Solos can and will join the casual group queue; a lot of them will just because, with solo-queue they don't have to worry about being stuck with 7 other randoms, because they're in the group queue because they want that kind of experience.

I don't see why its so completely lost on not you but most of the regs on this thread, that giving solos a queue doesn't mean they won't still solo queue with groups.

I think part of the reason this thread exists is that even though SWTOR is a MMO it is one where it does not require you to grind the skill of "making friends". Back in the olden days, before group finder, before queing into ops, etc, making friends was valuable, working with groups over time was valuable.

But in SWTOR you really dont need to group or make friends to reach 55, so you players who are solo and they dont really see the need of "making friends". On the other hand you have players who are in guilds, who do progression, who play with the same 4,8, 12 players every single day. They dont necessarily que in wzs as a premade because they are top tier pvp, they do it because those are the players they always play with. Its the same for why you bring the same people to do progression raiding, you become friends, you become a team, its what makes the game fun.

So splitting the que will do nothing more than just further create a single player game in MMO clothing. Not sure if its good/bad/indifferent. But I definitely think that right now without cross server it just would make some servers have to little wzs.

Very good point.

 

That's the truth, we all want something out of this.

 

Difference is, I want to help the game. While the others are okay with a system that forces ranked teams off their own servers. You can even look how many premade supporters flat out tell people to leave the game...then complain about queue times.

ya know, the only people i see complaining about queue times are the folks in this thread who get angry that they have "wasted time" in the queue to fight a premade. anecdotes along the lines of "i waited 15-20 minutes for the queue, only to face a full 8 man premade" are pretty common throughout this thread.

ive also seen many people complain that they have to wait for long queue times while they are on a PvE server. that one seems pretty self explanatory.....

queue times on pot5 are fine. longest ive had to wait in recent memory is like 5 minutes.

i definitely think the claims about population being made by several people here are grossly hyperbolic.

It's ak... *snip*

I won't feed your trolling any more, your faux victimhood is an insult to all real victims and I do them an injustice even letting you continue.

Wanna explain to the entire discussion group why you won't reply to this post:

Ever hear of the lynx-hare cycle? The premades are basically running around in regular, cutting down the pug population. BW should realize, it wants to expand its player base, this open-regs queue is antithetical to their company's needs.

For every predator team queued into regs, there are 4-8 solo players who are t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing every time they have to put up with that.

 

 

• 
   
  
• For every pug that quits, that is one less person who's queuing up into regs. For every person less, that is X-amount of time that gets added to regs queue.
   
  
• For every five minutes that gets added to the queue, there is one pugroller on your premade who is t-h-i-s much closer to unsubscribing because he's bored because he has no attention span because all he wants is a free lunch and to win and get to play against real people but not have to risk losing.
   
  
• For every one pugroller who quits, that's one more lost guildie who's off to free lunch somewhere else, as the game population dwindles.
  

 

BUT, unlike the pugrollers who will only stick around if what they get is free lunch as easy as possible and if you chew it up for them first all the better, the solo population will explode like rabbits if they don't have to sleep in the same den with lynxes.

Other than ignoring the fact you think somehow having friends and farming your gear like everyone else (GM's didn't hand out all of a 'pugrollers' gear) is "free lunch" let's look at this:

According to the thread/you Bioware needs/is trying to keep all it's subscriptions and needs to change something because this isn't working:

1. According to you, the more PuG's are "preyed" upon by Groups, the more and more they quit.

2. The more PuG's quit, the less available to be in the queue with Groups.

3. The less PuG's available, the longer groups queue.

4. The longer the queue, the more groups quit.

5. PuG and Group populations decline/go extinct.

Assuming that's true, let's insert your suggested answer: A separate PuG queue and a solo+group queue.

1. The more PuG's "preyed" upon by groups, the more they move into the PuG-only bracket.

2. The more PuG's that move to the PuG-only bracket, the less available to be in the queue with groups.

3. The less PuG's available, the longer the group queue.

4. The longer the group queue, the more groups quit.

5. Group Populations decline/go extinct, PuG's thrive.

Following your reasoning, your "solution" doesn't solve the damn problem, does it? Bioware is still losing a significant portion of it's subs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Come one Mr. Akin to, Explain. Explain why you can't argue with your own logic. Come on, you're the reasonable one, you got your morals in check. Explain. Explain why you won't respond. Explain how giving the PuG's that are going to quit a solo-only queue will have any less of an effect on the real pvp than if they just up and quit.

And if for a third time, you ignore this post, I ask all posters here to see this Champion of the Innocent PuG's for what they really are... Ignore this troll.

(Edit: Ps. Not pointing fingers but... the infraction in the mail box gave me a good laugh. I wasn't aware asking someone if they wanted to continue to sound uneducated was such a terrible thing to say!))

ya know, the only people i see complaining about queue times are the folks in this thread who get angry that they have "wasted time" in the queue to fight a premade. anecdotes along the lines of "i waited 15-20 minutes for the queue, only to face a full 8 man premade" are pretty common throughout this thread.

 

ive also seen many people complain that they have to wait for long queue times while they are on a PvE server. that one seems pretty self explanatory.....

 

queue times on pot5 are fine. longest ive had to wait in recent memory is like 5 minutes.

 

 

i definitely think the claims about population being made by several people here are grossly hyperbolic.

Granted for large servers like POT5, TEH population is not so much of an issue, but what about others servers like Jung Ma? Or people who play late at night? Sometimes on my server I am grouped up with the same people over and over, granted I am playing at late long past prime time, but sometimes the comp is not exactly ideal or even favorable for many, but I make do, even if I am fighting an imp guild that loves doing double queues at night.

I do not think fighting a premade is wasted time, since no premade is unbeatable, everyone loses. By no means do I think it would be fair to punish those players that wish to play with their friend even if they do so simply to grief others. Remember we have other servers, not every server has a healthy population 24/7 with active queues.

Throw in cross server queues, and matchmaking would work, but without it people will still whine about premades if they make it so it has a time limit to find an ideal group if no ideal group is found they play grab bag with the players, or people will whine about queues taking longer.

Only larger servers would win out, smaller ones would still suffer.

When I say matchmaking I mean making it so groups fight other groups and solo players fight other solo playres

Wanna explain to the entire discussion group why you won't reply to this post

Ugh your post is a mess. I try to answer one thing at a time because you're flying so many false or weak assumptions, it's just better for you to only polish one bowling ball at a time. Nonetheless:

Assuming that's true, let's insert your suggested answer: A separate PuG queue and a solo+group queue.

 

1. The more PuG's "preyed" upon by groups, the more they move into the PuG-only bracket.

2. The more PuG's that move to the PuG-only bracket, the less available to be in the queue with groups.

3. The less PuG's available, the longer the group queue.

4. The longer the group queue, the more groups quit.

5. Group Populations decline/go extinct, PuG's thrive.

 

Following your reasoning, your "solution" doesn't solve the damn problem, does it? Bioware is still losing a significant portion of it's subs.

Again, Solos can and will join the casual group queue; a lot of them will just because, with solo-queue they don't have to worry about being stuck with 7 other randoms, because they're in the group queue because they want that kind of experience. I don't see why its so completely lost on not you but most of the regs on this thread, that giving solos a queue doesn't mean they won't still solo queue with groups. All things being the same, that means it might not have that much an impact on group queue.

But human nature isn't so simple, and all things are not the same. Because when the pugs are able to avoid groups in the queue, the groups will no longer be able to avoid groups in the queue.

Fact is, a lot of premades have geared their way up to full based on this easy win rate. "You and your noble friends and 'not in my guild we're all straight up'," - whatever. Cymonguk had a great post 2pgs back:

Let's clear some things straight off the bat:

1) There are scummy pugrollers. These people are clearly in the reg queues trying to get "free" wins and the associated gear/commendations.

2) There are scummy players. These people will use any advantage they can, having played COD you find players who will turn on any cheat they can, just for the win.

3) There are people who are whiners who don't like being beaten, and if it wasnt the premades they would complain about something else.

Try not to jump to assumptions and just acknowledge the basic fact: No matter how upright you regard your own intentions as being, no matter how virtuous you, me, any of us claim our intentions to be, those intentions don't represent the full gaming community. The team down the block from you could, might be, and likely are people with less than noble intentions. Whatever you get out of the game, say you want a challenge, to continue to push yourself hopefully, to improve your skills, to learn from people better than you as we all should want - - - - NONETHELESS, the group down the block from you odds are, want:

1. Easy wins

2. Most reward for least resistance.

3. To minimize the chance of loss to the point of avoiding serious competition in favor of sure victory.

You might want: a good challenge, to have to work for what you get, to be in a position based on merit.

The want: Free gear progression, easy mode and a virtually guaranteed 90% win rate.

We'll just take you at your word, you're not here to pugroll. I'm sure you won't say you're surprised to hear that some people are just out for anything they can get, as easy as they can get it. That's why MMO's have hacks, not that Swtor has much a problem with that, but there are plenty of people in the game who would use them if they could.

If you could sneak in with a speed hack without much trouble, speed hacks are what you'd see all over the place. If it helps them win, they don't care if they win because of merit. I'm not comparing premading to hacks, but I am saying there are plenty of teams who should be in ranked who are literally playing regs because they don't want a challenge; so they are grouping up as if for ranked, but taking advantage.

By which I mean to say, if the regs queue dies it will not be because of solos playing separately - it will be for the same reason ranked queue sucks: there is a certain large percentage of the premade grouping community who won't want to play regs if it means they have to lose more than they would in solo.

Isn't that considered borderline Paying to Win? Giving a company money in exchange for making your dailies easier?

 

Consequentially, I'd pay Bioware good money to make Flashpoints solo-able on those nights I just want to get in, do my daily/weeklies, and not have to worry if there's a wait the queue for another Dps, have to respec to get in as a healer, deal with afkers, leavers, and that one healer who spends more time Dps'ing than keeping the Tank alive.

 

I get that it can be frustrating to be beaten and struggle to get your daily/weeklies done, but if you want the rewards you still either have to do the optimal/best way to do something, or suffer the hardships of doing it "your" way.

The queue thrives on solo players. The game thrives on solo players. Premades are out of control during certain hours on pot5 are out on control. Rolling solo players is absurd. I don't blame people doing it. I blame the game setup that allows it to happen.

Splitting the queue and allowing solo players to only player solo queue players is more than fair. Premades on vent have significant advantages. It's not even debatable. The reaction speed and setup planning for teams in vent is unbeatable by pick up teams. If premades like their comrades and the challenge, let them play in their own queue. If solo players want a faster queue let them join that queue as well.

ya know, the only people i see complaining about queue times are the folks in this thread who get angry that they have "wasted time" in the queue to fight a premade. anecdotes along the lines of "i waited 15-20 minutes for the queue, only to face a full 8 man premade" are pretty common throughout this thread.

 

ive also seen many people complain that they have to wait for long queue times while they are on a PvE server. that one seems pretty self explanatory.....

 

queue times on pot5 are fine. longest ive had to wait in recent memory is like 5 minutes.

 

 

i definitely think the claims about population being made by several people here are grossly hyperbolic.

Thanks for bringing up that point.

So the reason queue times would increase with separate queue's and nobody would ever get to play PVP again, is false. At least you agree finally.

Nothing to reread. My response obviously went WAY over your head, and when I pointed out that Cash already responded to that same post, you should have been able to read the tea leaves on what my next two comments was about... One question though...

 

What does your monitor taste like?

I see you failed to re-read, even been asked serveral times. Is it that hard?

I'm wondering honestly, if you are capable of actually having a discussion or are you truly the jester people claim you to be?

seperate queue will end up killing off any casual grouping, because they will be put into a near ranked level wz, which is worse than fighting a single premade. so, you are moving the problem from casual solo queue to casual groups. Not to mention that queues will take longer because you are dividing the total pool into 2.

Another problem is 3 person teams. Basically, you will either need another 3 person team or 5 person team if there is a seperate queue.

 

So it goes from "form a premade if you want to win more" to "if you want to play with your friends, you better have the right number, and a high level of gear and skill, otherwise you will just get killed repeatedly or sit in queue." All while taking longer for games to start. So how is this an improvement?

According to randle and cash, BIS premades are a fairy tale. They said it themselves. So the competition level would remain the same, there is no such thing as stompings in PVP. So everything would be fine with separate queue's.

I see you failed to re-read, even been asked serveral times. Is it that hard?

 

I'm wondering honestly, if you are capable of actually having a discussion or are you truly the jester people claim you to be?

Most people understood my comments... Go look at the first sentence of note 3551 if you need further enlightenment..

the sob story about how your computer performance is sub-par is really quite touching, but has nothing to do with whether or not premades are unfair.

 

i highly doubt that every single person that has every been in a premade has a super computer....

 

and like i already said, PC hardware has always been, and will always be, a limiting factor in PC gaming. its also one of the few aspects of PC gaming that you have absolute direct control over. FPS too low? save up your money and buy a new GPU.

Actually its not my GPU, its my Proccessor and OS. But I wish I could save money but I am disabled and can't work atm. But don't worry I am not getting a single penny from tax payers as I am to proud and living off my tax return / 401k. My point was there are mutiple reasons a person might play bad in a particular match weither against other pugs or pre-mades since that keeps getting brought up. There are alot of factors, that need to be considered before you call a person bad. Some matchs I can throw out 1.5 million heals and some matchs I get 300k heals but most times its 600k.