Maybe they can make the 50% dmg reduction only for the dmg you put into players, it does metter how you look at it from PVE perspective xD

I'm not against that if they can do it, but plenty of other pvers have chimed in saying that it will barely affect pve.

How about Bioware starts separating PVP and PVE balance?

Make Guard not usable by DPS specs inside PvP warzones.

"huurrr duuurrr world pvp", world pvp doesn't exist so let's not balance things thinking about what doesn't exist.

How about Bioware starts separating PVP and PVE balance?

 

Make Guard not usable by DPS specs inside PvP warzones.

 

"huurrr duuurrr world pvp", world pvp doesn't exist so let's not balance things thinking about what doesn't exist.

Just make guard not usable by dps specs period. It breaks pvp and you really don't need more than the two guards from tanks in pve anyway. Hell when it was still tied to spec no dps ever used it in pve and it was fine.

The guard damage reduction can make fights a lot easyer, in many PVE fights, best example would be second phase TFB NiM, and taunt doesn't do anything in PVE, it's only aggro.

The 5% reduced damage from guard really isn't all that significant, pve was fine when dps still had to stance dance to guard (and so never guarded in pve), and it'll be fine if you can't guard as a dps as well. Taunt on the other hand has some uses to grab aggro on adds, dismantlers on Draxus being probably the best examples, but it can be useful in other scenarios. Certainly more useful than guard.

Just make guard not usable by dps specs period. It breaks pvp and you really don't need more than the two guards from tanks in pve anyway. Hell when it was still tied to spec no dps ever used it in pve and it was fine.

Guard has a purpose in PVE due to the threat lowering of the guarded target. If you have tanks that have it hard to keep aggro (yes, there must be also something wrong there as that shouldnt happen) then they guard 2 dps and if 2 of the 4 dps can guard they guard the other 2 dps. This way all 4 dps are guarded and have lowered threat, which is a helpful thing.

Guard has a purpose in PVE due to the threat lowering of the guarded target. If you have tanks that have it hard to keep aggro (yes, there must be also something wrong there as that shouldnt happen) then they guard 2 dps and if 2 of the 4 dps can guard they guard the other 2 dps. This way all 4 dps are guarded and have lowered threat, which is a helpful thing.

Worth noting that you can't be guarded while you're guarding, so the setup you are describing is impossible. But even if it wasn't, you really shouldn't be needing 4 guards. Two on your highest threat dps should be plenty. As I said, before specs were rolled into disciplines no dps ever guarded in pve and it was fine. And since then tanks have even gotten a buff in threat generation.

While we feel like guarding is a useful skill and important to the advanced classes that have access to it, it has become clear that it is being abused in PVP by guarding and guard switching with no penalty. This makes PVP unbalanced towards the disciplines that have access to guard.

I mean that is some strong wording for players simply using a mechanic that you guys, as developers, gave to us.

The whole removal of stances was an insanely bad move and I called it all those years ago.

Still, this is a good thing. I would like to echo some others in that this is really only a PvP thing and it doesn't necessarily have to apply to damage dealt to anything but players, however its also not really a big deal if DPS can't guard in PvE anymore so eh

What I hope comes after now is that we can start making some tweaks to the classes that heavily rely on these guard mechanics to succeed and see if we can compensate them elsewhere when time is going to prove them to be lacking now.

Also, nerf PT burst. Thx.

Honestly I wonder how half of these people would react if they made guard tied to your role like the in the old days.

Many probably never played during the time you couldn't even guard as any DPS.

IMHO DPS never needed to guard another player in the first place.

Blurring the lines between disciplines was always gonna cause massive headaches.

IDK if this goes far enough, since I stopped playing tanks and skanks some time ago, so I'm a bit rusty on all the guard mechanics.

- I can't believe it took so long for anyone in the studio to wake up and smell the coffee, since players have been posting about it for literally years.

Maybe they'll tone down all the self-heals from non-heal classes and phase walk from ranged DPS and all the other unnecessary guff that's crept in recently.

REALLY SIMPLE PREMISE:

Tanks soak up damage and generate threat, can dps a moderate amount.

Heals heal, can dps a small amount.

DPS do dps.

Some classes have stealth at the expense of some heal capability or some dps capability or threat-holding capability.

Any crossover makes an already- hard balancing act nigh-on impossible.

The 5% reduced damage from guard really isn't all that significant, pve was fine when dps still had to stance dance to guard (and so never guarded in pve), and it'll be fine if you can't guard as a dps as well. Taunt on the other hand has some uses to grab aggro on adds, dismantlers on Draxus being probably the best examples, but it can be useful in other scenarios. Certainly more useful than guard.

I think you didn't get what my reply there to Caprica was about, but ok

This change doesn't really solve the actual issue with guard in pvp with skank tanks and the fact that guard can be freely tossed around with only the GCD as the limiter to it. An actual CD needs to be applied to guard or guard needs to be breakable in pvp or something.

Guard has a purpose in PVE due to the threat lowering of the guarded target. If you have tanks that have it hard to keep aggro (yes, there must be also something wrong there as that shouldnt happen) then they guard 2 dps and if 2 of the 4 dps can guard they guard the other 2 dps. This way all 4 dps are guarded and have lowered threat, which is a helpful thing.

Ya...that's kind of abusing a mechanic. If you ask me, dps shouldn't have access to guard at all.

skanks are kind of a different issue, as by common definition they are tank specced not dps. Im fine if they take guard from dps specs completely; i am NOT fine if they change it for tank specs. You want to tie guard to tank gear, i think that's unnecessary too, but I'm fine with it as I've run tank gear since the crit/shield changes. But to change the fundamental mechanic for a tank geared/tank specced toon is too far in my opinion.

If ttk is too high reduce the survivability of self sustaining dps classes, where overall survivability has been consistently increased over the years.

Totally irrelevant. This change was made specifically for ranked pvp. It will be a massive change there, and as others have pointed out that know better than me, it will be a relatively insignificant change for pve.

Funny how when a change to PVE affects PVP PVP'ers are up in arms, but when a change to PVP affects PVE and PVE'ers complain the PVP'ers try to minimize the impact. The purpose for a DPS to guard in PVE is not for the damage reduction; it is for the threat reduction. So many of you championing this change amd minimizing the impact on PVE keep going back to group content. Did it ever occur to you that the most utility from this is not in group content? Probably not. The hypocrisy is astounding.

As already noted, guard works differently in PVP vs PVE so there is absolutely no need for this change to affect PVE whatsoever, and the PVP'ers who are trying to minimize the impact should be ignored as their style of play does not have relevance on PVE.

A great change for PVP, or so I am told, but it should have no impact on PVE.

The purpose for a DPS to guard in PVE is not for the damage reduction; it is for the threat reduction. So many of you championing this change amd minimizing the impact on PVE keep going back to group content. Did it ever occur to you that the most utility from this is not in group content? Probably not. The hypocrisy is astounding..

Are you not aware of the fact that initially when this game came out we had stances? And to use guard you had to be in a tank stance? And being in a tank stance equated to a dps loss? This is literally just going back to how it was supposed to be. DPS whether be pvp or pve were never supposed to use guard without some kind of huge drawback. The utility is there, but its clearly always meant to be a tank only thing. Honestly they should just remove from dps completely.

Are you not aware of the fact that initially when this game came out we had stances? And to use guard you had to be in a tank stance? And being in a tank stance equated to a dps loss? This is literally just going back to how it was supposed to be. DPS whether be pvp or pve were never supposed to use guard without some kind of huge drawback. The utility is there, but its clearly always meant to be a tank only thing. Honestly they should just remove from dps completely.

Yes, I am. Are you aware that this is a very different game than at launch and things have changed over time? Your point is irrelevant.

Are you not aware of the fact that initially when this game came out we had stances? And to use guard you had to be in a tank stance? And being in a tank stance equated to a dps loss? This is literally just going back to how it was supposed to be. DPS whether be pvp or pve were never supposed to use guard without some kind of huge drawback. The utility is there, but its clearly always meant to be a tank only thing. Honestly they should just remove from dps completely.

I’d be fine if they removed it from dps spec for pvp. But you know the crying would loud from both some pvpers and pvers.

I did read another suggestion I like, which was to disable it for dps while in pvp. Surely that can’t be too hard to do and then they don’t upset the pve guys.

Hi all,

 

I wanted to communicate some changes we are making to guard for 6.1.4 that are going to be live on PTS soon. We’ve heard your feedback about Guarding in PVP and we are hoping to address some of those concerns with this change.

 

We’ve added a 50% damage penalty to DPS disciplines while they are guarding allies. The full text of the new DPS guard is:

 

 

“While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transferred back to you.

You deal 50% less damage while guarding.”

 

 

All this means is that while you guard allies as a DPS discipline, you do less damage while you are guarding that ally. It’s worth noting that this only applies to the DPS disciplines, Tank disciplines do not suffer this penalty and can freely guard as usual with no penalty.

 

The purpose of this change is to discourage the use of guard in every situation in PVP. While we feel like guarding is a useful skill and important to the advanced classes that have access to it, it has become clear that it is being abused in PVP by guarding and guard switching with no penalty. This makes PVP unbalanced towards the disciplines that have access to guard.

 

With this change, we are hoping that guard is used more thoughtfully in PVP while still retaining its usefulness in certain situations. We’d love to hear your feedback on this change, specifically if you think it helps the PVP experience overall, if the penalty feels fair, and after you get your hands on it if there’s any noticeable difference to guarding and team composition in PVP.

 

Thanks!

Pls remove force bound from dps specs. This is nonsense when you get obfuscate from one marauder, then you get force bound then you get another obfuscate etc, etc. Whole game is lost

Yes, I am. Are you aware that this is a very different game than at launch and things have changed over time? Your point is irrelevant.

My point is pretty relevent. Its called they are fixing a mistake. Using guard as a DPS should come with a drawback.

I’d be fine if they removed it from dps spec for pvp. But you know the crying would loud from both some pvpers and pvers.

I did read another suggestion I like, which was to disable it for dps while in pvp. Surely that can’t be too hard to do and then they don’t upset the pve guys.

I don't see any problem with removing it from dps in pve. If they need to stack hybrid classes for guard then the main tank sucks at threat management.

Essentially though, they are abusing a mechanic and its rightfully being altered to bring back the drawbacks it had when stances existed.

Pls remove force bound from dps specs. This is nonsense when you get obfuscate from one marauder, then you get force bound then you get another obfuscate etc, etc. Whole game is lost

That set is overrated and not worth the dps loss.

Guard has a purpose in PVE due to the threat lowering of the guarded target. If you have tanks that have it hard to keep aggro (yes, there must be also something wrong there as that shouldnt happen) then they guard 2 dps and if 2 of the 4 dps can guard they guard the other 2 dps. This way all 4 dps are guarded and have lowered threat, which is a helpful thing.

You can't guard someone that is guarding another so this is actual bs.

I think the move would be to add back into stances, I imagine it would be a lot less work. The penalty of swapping stances made your spec fundamentally not work and took all of your resources. While a damage reduction is great but in certain situations I feel are a much less punishment than swapping stances.

All of them will still guard in windows of it being needed with small penalty with this change, they won't leave it on like the way they do currently but they certainly will guard. With stance changing it'd make them useless for a longer duration of time so they'd have to be certain a guard is the move, which I think where it'd require much more knowledge and skill.

Human error and decision is something that should be heavily weighed upon so not making an obvious easy choice everytime is a good thing.

I think the move would be to add back into stances, I imagine it would be a lot less work. The penalty of swapping stances made your spec fundamentally not work and took all of your resources. While a damage reduction is great but in certain situations I feel are a much less punishment than swapping stances.

All of them will still guard in windows of it being needed with small penalty with this change, they won't leave it on like the way they do currently but they certainly will guard. With stance changing it'd make them useless for a longer duration of time so they'd have to be certain a guard is the move, which I think where it'd require much more knowledge and skill.

Human error and decision is something that should be heavily weighed upon so not making an obvious easy choice everytime is a good thing.

I liked stances because swapping was a good tactic for tanks and DPS;

Off tanks wouldn't worry about ripping as off-tanks if they were doing a DPS build (DPS stance = lower threat gen)... and do more damage (damage boost, baby )

DPS could be tanky in a pinch (tank stance) and use a proper AoE taunt. They'd still not be tanky, don't get me wrong, but at least they'd be a smidge tankier and so there were more clutch saves to be had

I do want to start by saying that I like that guarding being more for tanks only in PvP is a good thing, For a long time, tanking in PvP has been pretty pointless and this gives them a point again! At the same time, this is a pretty hefty nerf in terms of DPS utility, especially in PvE for the threat reduction properties. You might as well just completely get rid of DPS being able to guard if you're gonna make them deal 50% less damage all the time and give them each some new utility or have them share the group utility (Supercharged Celerity for PTs, Bloodthirst for Juggs, and Unlimited Power for Sins). Otherwise, you should make it so that DPS deal 50% less damage to enemy players only.

Alternatively, you could change things up and make it so that DPS don't get the damage redirection at all (this could be controlled by the stance discipline passive) and leave all the other aspects as they are now, so no 50% damage dealt is needed.

Are you not aware of the fact that initially when this game came out we had stances? And to use guard you had to be in a tank stance? And being in a tank stance equated to a dps loss? This is literally just going back to how it was supposed to be. DPS whether be pvp or pve were never supposed to use guard without some kind of huge drawback. The utility is there, but its clearly always meant to be a tank only thing. Honestly they should just remove from dps completely.

That is actually true.

Back then the DPS would give up a lot from DPS stances just to use the tank stance to guard someone.

That is actually true.

Back then the DPS would give up a lot from DPS stances just to use the tank stance to guard someone.

Except with stances, there was a trade-off beyond the ability to guard. DPS also got a defense buff and the AoE taunt... and tanks were able to swap to DPS stance to do less threat (not rip as off-tank) while doing more DPS.

Currently they're just giving DPS the penalty with none of the benefits (or the tank benefits) of old stances.