Double speak says I.

This game is so upsetting, balance is so out of reach now it will never be fixed, see ya

So I asked the question twice already and provided combat log parser showing the issue and still no dev response. Someone please tell me why my abilities are hitting for less damage when more stacks of heat signature are applied? You can see from my previous posts in this thread that as my heat signature stacks went up my damage went down. in the small portion of a combat log I shared with 3 regular tracer missile hits in a row I showed that with no heat signature up I hit a target dummy for 1518 with a 2 stack up I hit for 1561 and with a 4 stack up I hit for 1484 all using the same ability tracer missile. The 5th stack brings the damage back to between a no stack and a 2 stack. This just doesn't make sense as it is consistently this way in every combat test I have done since. I tested on a friend to make sure the armor debuff was being applied. It seems to be reducing armor values correctly yet our damage is decreasing. Can a dev please explain to me why this happens or fix the problem please? I have seen a 500-600 dps loss since the 19th so obviously you guys broke something.

I thought training dummies didn't have defense yet?

I was under the impression armor was considered defense.. It is under the defense tab...

Is it only considered a generalization in comparison to defense, because it's not offense?

Or was armor included when this was stated?

 

Armor has no impact on whether an attack hits or not. Just on how much damage is done after a hit happens, and even then it only reduces energy and kinetic damage.

Arsenal was fine before the TM nerf, but you forum whiners didn't like the playstyle. Oh boo hoo. So instead of rerolling to a spec/class you might better enjoy, you whinge to BW to change the spec, and now look at the problems we have. Our biggest damage dealer is a channelled ability. We have debuffs not working properly. Our mobility and defence is shot to hell.

 

The spec was FINE BEFORE THE NERF

So I asked the question twice already and provided combat log parser showing the issue and still no dev response. Someone please tell me why my abilities are hitting for less damage when more stacks of heat signature are applied? You can see from my previous posts in this thread that as my heat signature stacks went up my damage went down. in the small portion of a combat log I shared with 3 regular tracer missile hits in a row I showed that with no heat signature up I hit a target dummy for 1518 with a 2 stack up I hit for 1561 and with a 4 stack up I hit for 1484 all using the same ability tracer missile. The 5th stack brings the damage back to between a no stack and a 2 stack. This just doesn't make sense as it is consistently this way in every combat test I have done since. I tested on a friend to make sure the armor debuff was being applied. It seems to be reducing armor values correctly yet our damage is decreasing. Can a dev please explain to me why this happens or fix the problem please? I have seen a 500-600 dps loss since the 19th so obviously you guys broke something.

 

you are not guaranteed more damage with 5 stacks.

all you are doing is lowering the DR of the mob which would then just move your damage range a LITTLE higher.

I fail to see why you assume 5 stacks should ALWAYS do more damage than 4 stacks.

Its pretty obvious that the changes that were made to BH Merc were too extreme and a reaction to a vocal minority. I agree that BH Merc are pretty worthless in PVP now. We used to have decent burst but its pretty sad at this point. There is no real reason to play one, esp in PVP.

 

Id agree with a reduction of damage by 10% of tracer missle, but everything else should have stayed the same. It went way too far and as a result the class is now gimped. In order to make accurate comparisions you cant just lump everyones DPS together and try to balance it that way. Factors such as guarded DPS, pre-mades, ect Im sure contributed to most of the vocal minorites complaining. That isnt because a class is imbalanced but because others are organized and running against pugs. Now, Im constantly outdamaged by Sorcs, Jedi Knights, ect and Im running in full Battlemaster. My ablility to take down someone in PvP is all but gone. When tanks are out DPS the DPS...you broke something.

 

In PvE Im also constantly outdamaged by classes such as snipers, maruaders. I run in full rakata and have some black hole pieces as well. I dont think Ill be here much longer.

 

When you nerf a class, you dont do it with a mallet, you do it with a fine surgical laser and then see how the changes effect game play and adjust further if needed. The way 1.2 was handled for most classes succeded in doing nothing but pissing off the majority of the player base as most classes got nerfed.

 

I remember reading how BW stated it would be too hard to bring other people up to snuff instead of nerfing people down. Well good luck being lazy when you have no more player base.

you are not guaranteed more damage with 5 stacks.

all you are doing is lowering the DR of the mob which would then just move your damage range a LITTLE higher.

I fail to see why you assume 5 stacks should ALWAYS do more damage than 4 stacks.

 

Well sir then you arent using logic. You just said it would make your damage a LITTLE higher. If 4 stacks lowers DR by X then 5 stacks lower it by Y (Y being more) which would result in more damage.

Blah Blah Blah, Bounty Hunter is fine.

 

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/choose-your-side-jedi-knight-vs.-bounty-hunter

While I agree that our damage has taken a hit, I'm still consistently getting over 250-300k in each warzone...unless the other team has Knights/Warriors...then they just train me the entire time and it's ZERO fun. I have 1288 Expertise, half war-hero half BM...and a single sentinel / marauder can just obliterate me. Survivability is nil right now.

 

For example: in a huttball...I get charged by a jugg who I know pre 1.2 was complete crap. I could 1v1 him easily every time. Suddenly my health is down to 20% and I'm running for my life without even getting 5% of his health gone. We come out of the WZ and I check his gear and he's still in freaking Centurion/Champion with sub 1000 expertise. How is that even fair? 1288 expertise and he just destroys me now. I don't even try to fight them.

 

I don't understand why Merc damage was nerfed...and yet warrior/knight damage was buffed over ours with way more survivability. Rocket punching and boosting them away does nothing, they just charge back.

 

Mercs need a root in the least imo. If you're going to keep our damage down you need to at give us something to compensate.

Another patch that has failed to address an issue with this class. I'm a huge Star Wars nut and have supported this game from pre-release but honestly I just don't care anymore. It's obvious that they don't play their game much. The fact that the unload bug is STILL THERE after god knows how many people have reported it is just ridiculous (the bug that if you begin to use unload just as a person dies it will continue doing the animation indefinitely until you use more abilities). Never thought I'd say this and still don't know if I'll do it (too much time invested in my characters) but I might unsub when Diablo III drops on the 15th.

They were. Now ? Not so sure.

People asked for a new ending for ME3->clarification instead, ending stay the same

People asked for more customization for end game gear in SWTOR-->you can add set bonus on orange gear, but only works on 1.2armor sets

People asked for a better animation for mortar volley (trooper)->they nerfed the range of mortar volley/death from above, and changed the animation.

 

If we ask for something, we have something close, or what we ask, including a nerf we didn't ask. In any case, it's not what we wanted.

 

bioware austin didnt make me3.

sure some people who work on game assets did work on them but two different places and games and crews.

bioware never said you would be able to mutilate everygear in game the specifically said end game new items, and further they said only can mod per slot type etc.

 

the animations were switched. but the "nerf" roflmao....the "nerf" is indeed too much. its nice the damage happens faster now. but the area of effect for death from above is now less than blasters. which is silly, really silly.

 

see a volley of missles from above, it only hits twp npcs in a group of 5 all standing in a circle, where the blaster sweep hits all 5. it i agree is broken. but see all those qq pvp burnouts that dont even play this game anymore whined so loud about BH is op nerfz nao!!!11! that bioware listened. i am fully sure half the stupid things bioware has done is due to too many false tickets and troll guilds yelling louder than the real players who actually play the whole game. same thing for healz iz op nerf nao!!!11!1

 

im my personal opinion, ive been paying to play a beta up until 1.2 thats how it felt to me the whole time.

now we got a real game with a few issues they are fixing every week. rushed for holiday sales? oh you bet. was the game in a playable state? sure was. thats what the suits care about... if you all think for one second that some suit gives a rats rear about how gamers enjoy a game you are delusional. the people who spent years making the game love it and want to do things right for the gamers enjoyment, the dbags in the suits are the enemy. they push push and push with no thought for us.

 

thats the problem with modern day gaming. suits, too much money involved, too many "investors" to answer to, unless you are a company like Valve. problem with any large company made up of other companies, each arm has its own previous way of doing things and all the umbrella company does is slap the parent company logo and provide cash flow and resources. they do nothing to further the game or gaming in general.

 

if you want to blame anyone for the state of the game, blame the false issue trolls and the suits who push too hard. the people who sit and create this stuff for us to buy and enjoy love/hate their creations, they already have been paid to make the game, its all recoup and profit from here on out. but the people making this game, WANT it to work perfectly for everyone.

 

once people mature enough to realize the truth, that its not the code-monkeys or artists or voice actors fault that crap gets shoveled out. its the suits who control the cash flow and distribution paths.

 

so give the devs a break eh? go find the corporate EA emails of the people who really are to blame in the gaming industry........ talk to them like you all do to the forums and in game, maybe if enough trolls spam bomb the suits they will take notice and maybe not rush out the nest AAA game in single A form or worse....

 

Truth, its out there if you are strong enough to face it...

The only thing I have really seen that has changed is our HSM. I was getting crits for 10.5k almost every other one. Now it is hitting a consistent 5.5k each time. Yeah we can't mess with marauders, but you say you can't fight a jugg because of their survivability? I've dueled with juggs and other classes several times and we end up about 50-50.

yeah really no fix yet??? do they have any official statement on the state of mercs? i hate how they dont respond in the forums at all, i remember on the SWG forums and the WoW forums the devs would actually address your complaints and say something like "we are working on it" or "it is working as intended" etc...

here so far i havent seen any devs involved in the dialogue.

yeah really no fix yet??? do they have any official statement on the state of mercs? i hate how they dont respond in the forums at all, i remember on the SWG forums and the WoW forums the devs would actually address your complaints and say something like "we are working on it" or "it is working as intended" etc...

here so far i havent seen any devs involved in the dialogue.

 

If you actually read thru the thread you would have found the Dev response.

If you actually read thru the thread you would have found the Dev response.

 

this...

There wont be any fix to Mercenary not in the close future... is maybe because they play any other classes in game and they want easy kills on mercenary maybe that why they (fixed) or class to death... anyway i wont be here when this fixes will happen if they will ever happen..gl everyone

i see a slight loss...sometimes the HSM appears to hit right...sometimes its lower than I think it should be; however, according to parser testing in HM Denova we are still comparable to marauders. I know a lot of you don;t believe that, but I've seen it with my own eyes. We all have top line tier gear. Maybe you need the stat adjusts to be figured in. Older tier gear was heavy on accuracy. If you were a gamer you would have stripped and replaced those mods with crit/surge...I did and mayeb thats why I am not that bad off. Any of you considered hunting down all of the aim/cunning datacrons too? I am over 2k aim now and really not noticing a remarkable difference...in that, our group is able to complete HM Denova. Sorry to portray myself as a supported by the bio devil. They no doubt should look at it and rework the tooltips...which I think is where a lot of issues are coming from. The tooltip still has us badder than we actually are. Play the game because you like it...so long all you quitters; have fun on the next 10 mmo's you play. I'm sticking it out.

Hi Phasewalker. I wanted to drop in to tell you that these abilities aren't broken. Considering your small sample size, your numbers are actually quite accurate.

 

I'll go step by step as to why that's the case, but if you're a TLDR kind of reader: operation training dummies have armor that gives them 35% kinetic and energy DR.

 

 

 

The tooltip says that on average you deal 1804 kinetic damage with Tracer Missile, and you found that on average, your Tracer Missile inflicts 1410 kinetic damage. You include that this is with 5 stacks of Heat Signatures and with High Velocity Gas Cylinder running.

 

In this test, you ignore 55% of the target's armor rating. 20% from Heat Sigs + 35% from your Cylinder.

 

Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

 

Therefore, an average Tracer Missile would deal 1804 kinetic damage, and a target with 19.5% DR would take 1452 kinetic damage. [1804 * 0.805 = 1452] This is only 3% different than the 1410 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.

 

 

 

The same methodology above applies to your Heatseeker Missiles. The tooltip says they deal an average of 2194 kinetic damage. Since the target has 5 Heat Signatures, that HSM deals 2632 kinetic damage. [2194 * 1.2 = 2632] Cutting through the same 55% armor rating as before, the target still has 19.5% DR, meaning that on average, your HSM inflicts 2119 kinetic damage. [2632 * 0.805 = 2119] This is only 1% different than the 2145 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.

 

 

 

All tooltips in the game show damage dealt, not damage inflicted after armor. Our tooltips do not show you the damage the ability will inflict after the target's armor.

 

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.

 

Lol Devs must tear their hair out at the sheer stupidity of some people. I won't bother reading the rest of the thread but I'm guessing the OP is still whinging. After being shown to be so embarrassingly wrong, I'd be laying low for a while... TBH I'm surprised the OP had the basic intelligence to be able to post a thread in the first place.

I won't bother reading the rest of the thread

 

Ignorance is truly bliss, isn't it...

What some don't take into consideration when figuring armor reducing debuffs into damage calculations is diminishing returns on armor.

 

A high armo target will get a lower effect to damage mitigation from an armor debuff than a target with a low armor rating. Due to, as I stated, diminishing returns on armor values.

 

Reducing armor by 20% doesnot mean a 20% increase of damage. On my JK with 5,5k armor. 5 stacks of 7% armor reduction decreased mitigation by around 6%.

 

So going from 4-5 stacks of BHs armor debuff is going to make a very minor damage increase, add into the fact that TM has a damage range. It's entirelly possible that damage can be less if your damage roll between the range is at the lower end.

What some don't take into consideration when figuring armor reducing debuffs into damage calculations is diminishing returns on armor.

 

A high armo target will get a lower effect to damage mitigation from an armor debuff than a target with a low armor rating. Due to, as I stated, diminishing returns on armor values.

 

Reducing armor by 20% doesnot mean a 20% increase of damage. On my JK with 5,5k armor. 5 stacks of 7% armor reduction decreased mitigation by around 6%.

 

So going from 4-5 stacks of BHs armor debuff is going to make a very minor damage increase, add into the fact that TM has a damage range. It's entirelly possible that damage can be less if your damage roll between the range is at the lower end.

 

okay then explain why the attack is consistently lower @ 4-5 stacks than it is 1-3? I've gone through over 40 hours of combat logs now and it is a consistent 5% drop in dmg once you hit the 4 stack then a slight 4% increase from 4 to 5. RNG is one thing but this is consistent...I dont get it it worked fine before 1.2c.

Well sir then you arent using logic. You just said it would make your damage a LITTLE higher. If 4 stacks lowers DR by X then 5 stacks lower it by Y (Y being more) which would result in more damage.

 

your damage RANGE might be slightly higher ... this doesn't mean your damage DONE should be higher than the 4 stack.

 

if range is 1200-1400 and at 4 stacks you did 1380 damage ...

does that mean you MUST do more damage with 5 stacks? NO

your damage could be 1250 with 5 stacks right? YES

your damage RANGE might be slightly higher ... this doesn't mean your damage DONE should be higher than the 4 stack.

 

if range is 1200-1400 and at 4 stacks you did 1380 damage ...

does that mean you MUST do more damage with 5 stacks? NO

your damage could be 1250 with 5 stacks right? YES

 

heh it says my dmg range for tracer is 1718-1878. Yet on regular (not an operations) training dummy Im hitting for 1518 on first tracer missile, 1561 on 2nd, 1484 on third, and 1496 on fourth. Probably some armor at play in that equation but still seems a bit low with a supposed 20% armor debuff up. Hits much lower vs players with or without expertise on them or me tested both ways. Think Ill test vs a friend who is wearing absolutely nothing to see if it hits within the target range ever next will update tomorrow night.

Hi Phasewalker. I wanted to drop in to tell you that these abilities aren't broken. Considering your small sample size, your numbers are actually quite accurate.

 

I'll go step by step as to why that's the case, but if you're a TLDR kind of reader: operation training dummies have armor that gives them 35% kinetic and energy DR.

 

 

 

The tooltip says that on average you deal 1804 kinetic damage with Tracer Missile, and you found that on average, your Tracer Missile inflicts 1410 kinetic damage. You include that this is with 5 stacks of Heat Signatures and with High Velocity Gas Cylinder running.

 

In this test, you ignore 55% of the target's armor rating. 20% from Heat Sigs + 35% from your Cylinder.

 

Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

 

Therefore, an average Tracer Missile would deal 1804 kinetic damage, and a target with 19.5% DR would take 1452 kinetic damage. [1804 * 0.805 = 1452] This is only 3% different than the 1410 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.

 

 

 

The same methodology above applies to your Heatseeker Missiles. The tooltip says they deal an average of 2194 kinetic damage. Since the target has 5 Heat Signatures, that HSM deals 2632 kinetic damage. [2194 * 1.2 = 2632] Cutting through the same 55% armor rating as before, the target still has 19.5% DR, meaning that on average, your HSM inflicts 2119 kinetic damage. [2632 * 0.805 = 2119] This is only 1% different than the 2145 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.

 

 

 

All tooltips in the game show damage dealt, not damage inflicted after armor. Our tooltips do not show you the damage the ability will inflict after the target's armor.

 

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.

 

To sum things up, you effectively lied (or someone did) regarding the 10% decrease in TM damage from 1.15 to 1.2. It's somewhere closer to 35-40%.

 

Furthermore to add insult to injury you obliterated Merc survivability which was already weak prior to 1.2.

 

Good call.

Edited May 11, 2012 by TheNinjaboy