Disclaimer: Here and there I will reference changes that I've heard will be brought along in patch 1.2. If these rumors are true, the "problem" I am about to discuss has some super-serious implications. However, even if they are false, the problem is still there (just less super-serious). Regardless, a problem is a problem, and I think it should be fixed.

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The Problem (for TL;DR, skip to "The Suggestion")

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To preface the suggestion I'm about to make, I'd like to state what I mean by "class-based crew skill pigeonholing". The heart of the problem is companion crew-skill bonuses. For one thing, critical bonuses are far superior to efficiency bonuses in nearly every way. Secondly, critical bonuses available to players are few and far between, and don't allow for very much variety for any individual character that a player wishes to maximize returns on.

For example, if you take a look at empire side companions and the critical bonuses to crafting skills alone, it basically boils down to this: Only one empire-side companion has a critical bonus to Armormech (an Agent companion), only one companion has a critical bonus to Armstech (Bounty Hunter), only one for Biochem (Bounty Hunter again), and finally, only one for Synthweaving (Sith Warrior). If you care enough about crafting to limit yourself to picking only a crafting skill that you can get a critical bonus for, there's no real choice (except Bounty Hunters, which have the luxury of choosing between Armstech and Biochem). Additionally, Sith Inquisitors have no critical bonus to a crafting skill whatsoever.

The situation is slightly different for republic side companions in that no class cannot get a critical bonus to a crafting skill and that more than one class gets a bonus to Armstech (although this can be overlooked, being that the Consular gets a +2 bonus and the skill cannot make anything useful for the Consular itself, and that it pales in comparison to the Smuggler's +5 bonus).

The cases are few and far between where you can actually earn a critical bonus to not only a given crafting skill, but the gathering/mission skills associated with it, on a single character. So if you were to pick your crew skills across the board based on critical bonuses (gathering/mission included), you will very unlikely end up with 3 crew skills that were "meant" for each other. (A Bounty Hunter can pick Armstech for crit, but cannot get critical bonuses to it's associated gathering/mission skills, Scavenging and Investigation).

Moving along, with the news of critical crafting bonuses increasing significantly in true usefulness (I hear we'll all be ending up with custom-quality crafted gear with augment slots or something), any players that had not picked the "correct" crafting skill for their class will be at a severe disadvantage.

Take my case, for example. When I made my Sith Sorcerer in early access (which is still and forever will be my main), I picked up Synthweaving to accommodate the needs of my guild, and picked Archaeology and Underworld Trading to go along with it. I take my crafting very seriously in any MMO, and immediately became interested in collecting as many Synthweaving recipes as I could. As of the time of this post, I have 59 out of the 78 available prototype quality "looted" schematics and 72 out of the 89 custom quality "looted" schematics that can be worn by empire players. I haven't compiled a spreadsheet of the artifact quality schematics obtainable from operations.... but I can say that I have most of them (I'm my guild's primary Synthweaver with very little competition on schematics, and we've had all operations on full clear on at least hard mode for over a month and a half).

It wasn't until probably a month or so into the game and after having collected a LOT of recipes that I realized that I would have been MUCH better off if I had done it all on a Sith Warrior instead. A Sith Warrior's +5 critical bonus to Synthweaving from Jaesa vs. my no-crit-to-anything really makes me feel like I've pretty much been heavily penalized in terms of crafting, simply because I picked the "wrong" class/craft combination. It's almost bad enough to the point where I'm putting serious consideration into picking up Synthweaving on a Sith Warrior alt, collecting all the recipes all over again, and dropping my Sorc's Synthweaving altogether in favor of... oh i don't know.... probably slicing.

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The Suggestion

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With Armoring slots being unlocked and custom-quality augment-slotted crafted gear coming to the forefront of gear quality in 1.2, this whole crafting crit issue should seriously be changed to allow each character, regardless of class, to "swap-out" crafting bonuses rewarded by their companions that they don't need, and pick up ones that they can make effective use of.

There are a number of ways that this can be done. The simplest, quickest, easiest fix would be to add a new item slot to each companion, in which an item can be placed that replaces that companions default crafting bonuses. These items could be obtained by any number of means you can think of. They could be purchased with credits or Daily Commendations, dropped off bosses in flashpoints or operations (really, the possibilities are endless).

Alternatively, companion quests could be added that permanently replace a companion's crew skill bonuses (perhaps also add quests that would allow them to be changed back, and/or make them repeatable so that switching back and forth would be possible, though the quests would have to be made to take enough time to discourage frequent switches).

For that matter, crew skill bonuses could be made to be unlearnable in the same fashion that skill tree points can be unlearned. Could just be made to be expensive and have a hefty month-long cooldown or something.

Bottom line, any time a patch is released that brings endgame crafting into serious contention in the grand-scheme of things (like 1.2 is expected to), issues like this are going to need to be ironed out. Players should not be forced into specific class/crafting combinations if they expect to achieve maximum returns. I would favor having companion crew skill bonuses removed altogether, rather than the current system.

The simplest solution to your perceived problem would be to eliminate all character specific crew skill bonuses. That would by far be the fairest and easiest to implement. It would free all classes to pick any Crew Skill without prejudice.

The second easiest would be to just give "recruited" characters (i.e. not the Ship droid) "+2 crit, +5 efficiency" (or some such arbitrary bonus) to differentiate them from the ship droid (to a greater extent than being able/unable to increase affection).

Given the number of people who did the "right thing" and picked the class they wanted to play, and a "relevant" crew skill, only to discover that a different crew skill would have been "optimal" for the class or a different class "optimal" for the crew skill, I think this change would be well received by more than it would be decried.

"super-serious implications"

I read that and thought 'man, must be something good.' Then I read the post... I super-seriously disagree.

"Super Seriously" disagree as well.

Hell, why don't we just make everything easier!! By doing this you kill specialization and reduce market forces that create economic value.

Sorry but it just sounds like you are crying about not having the best crit chance

It is not game-changing as you say it is and with patch 1.2 coming down the pipeline everyone can still crit-craft an augment slot

Some might have better chances but everyone can still do it.

If you pick your character based on your crafting skills then I would say that you are missing the main point of playing a BioWare game: you are supposed to play for the story

"super-serious implications"

 

I read that and thought 'man, must be something good.' Then I read the post... I super-seriously disagree.

"Super Seriously" disagree as well.

 

Hell, why don't we just make everything easier!! By doing this you kill specialization and reduce market forces that create economic value.

Sorry but it just sounds like you are crying about not having the best crit chance

It is not game-changing as you say it is and with patch 1.2 coming down the pipeline everyone can still crit-craft an augment slot

 

Some might have better chances but everyone can still do it.

 

If you pick your character based on your crafting skills then I would say that you are missing the main point of playing a BioWare game: you are supposed to play for the story

lol...

A Sith Warrior's +5 critical bonus to Synthweaving from Jaesa vs. my no-crit-to-anything really makes me feel like I've pretty much been heavily penalized in terms of crafting, simply because I picked the "wrong" class/craft combination.

So, because of a lack of a piddling little +5 bonus, you think everything should be homogonized?

It's a very minor bonus, and not really worth worrying about -- certainly not to the extent that you seem to be, anyway. I suspect very, very few people feel "pigeon-holed" into some specific crafting skill because of that tiny little bonus. You also use the word "forced," which is just laughably over-the-top. This is like OCD levels of min/maxing here.

This is like OCD levels of min/maxing here.

Welcome to your first MMO. There is plenty of OCD level min/maxing going on here.

Biochem crit, Artifice, and Cybertech crit are not that great, frankly. Biochem's big draw are the reusable stuff (can't crit on them), and Artifice and Cybertech are both more mod-focused right now (No critting here either!).

Frankly, I'd take Vectors +5 diplomacy critical over a small boost to the BH's Biochem crit, anyday.

Biochem crit, Artifice, and Cybertech crit are not that great, frankly. Biochem's big draw are the reusable stuff (can't crit on them), and Artifice and Cybertech are both more mod-focused right now (No critting here either!).

 

 

Frankly, I'd take Vectors +5 diplomacy critical over a small boost to the BH's Biochem crit, anyday.

there are no companions with critical bonuses to cybertech and artificing in the game, for the very reason you just mentioned. that's not what we're talking about here. Biochems can craft and crit on equippable gear (implants).

Welcome to your first MMO. There is plenty of OCD level min/maxing going on here.

Not everyone min/max's. In fact, you do not need to min/max to clear normal or HM ops. There is no real motivation to min/max other than for epeen. Maybe NMM but even then you do not need to do it to get all the Rakata gear as HM will do (thus no motivation to do NMM and then no motivation to min/max other than for bragging rights).

lol...

Also, you laugh but most of the replies here on this thread disagree with your main premise.

I'm not here to say that min/maxing is useless or not fun but I am just saying that there is no motivation for the general populace to do so other than to compare the size of their epeen.

So think about it for a second. As a developer, should he/she stop working on existing bugs or additional content to enable the ability to choose your crafting bonus via item mods? Why should the developers put this in priority over all the existing bugs in the game especially when the current crafting system works? Does the current problem demand that changes be made for the entire swtor population or is it only a matter of preference on your part?

Doesn't the legacy bonuses coming up and the excellent story arc for each class promote leveling alts? Why can't you make an alt and level up your crafting to take advantage of the Synthweaving augment crits?

I have to say, it sounds like you want your main to have a particular crew skill with a bonus crit chance but because you do not have it you decide that this is a problem that requires the developers to make overarching changes to the item mods.

I think you raise a good point on how there is an imbalance as to which classes have crit chances on crafting skills but that simply just requires a rebalance. But even then, this is not a dealbreaker and can wait until other issues are ironed out first.

If you are afraid that you will not have an edge with the competition in terms of crafting augment slots then go level an alt and enjoy a great story line while you're at it.

Not everyone min/max's. In fact, you do not need to min/max to clear normal or HM ops. There is no real motivation to min/max other than for epeen. Maybe NMM but even then you do not need to do it to get all the Rakata gear as HM will do (thus no motivation to do NMM and then no motivation to min/max other than for bragging rights).

I'm not here to say that min/maxing is useless or not fun but I am just saying that there is no motivation for the general populace to do so other than to compare the size of their epeen.

You have it backwards. It's our motivation to min/max that drives us to do operations, not the other way around. Sure, some people have a greater desire to get that final 1% increase or whatever, while many others just get to a point and say "yeah this is enough". The point is, everything done in this game at 50 is for the purpose of min/maxing, and the point of this thread is to explain why some classes being awarded a blatantly higher upper limit for min/maxing in terms of class/craft choice is a bad thing.

Also, you laugh but most of the replies here on this thread disagree with your main premise.

They disagreed, but never presented an argument. In fact, nobody in this thead that has disagreed has brought up any sort of constructive point at all (except yours). So yeah, I felt like that was an appropriate response. Also, I post my ideas here for the devs to see, not the players. I don't delude myself to the extent that I expect the player community at large to share the same understanding of and passion for quality game design practices that I have. For that matter, I make threads like this fully expecting the players not to take them seriously (because most of them wont, no matter how valid the point may be).

So think about it for a second. As a developer, should he/she stop working on existing bugs or additional content to enable the ability to choose your crafting bonus via item mods? Why should the developers put this in priority over all the existing bugs in the game especially when the current crafting system works? Does the current problem demand that changes be made for the entire swtor population or is it only a matter of preference on your part?

If the devs are going to make a priority out of improving the role crafting plays in this game by a significant degree (as they are expected to in 1.2), then yes, making it more fair on a class-to-class basis should have the same priority. I put neither set of changes as higher priority over bug fixes and new raid content, but I do put crafting improvements and crafting fairness at the same level.

The crafting bonus system, as I said before, blatantly allows certain class/craft combinations to reach a higher min/max point than others, for reasons that are, at best, arbitrary. I'm not saying that inquisitors and warriors should all be allowed to crit on armormech and armstech. Armormech and Armstech yields nothing for those classes in tersm of gear, so that limitation is not arbitrary. What I'm saying is, if inquisitors and warriors get their armor crafted through the same profession, that warriors should not be any better at it than inquisitors. Much the same that bounty hunters should be no better at making weapons than agents as long as their weapons come from the same profession, and that agents should be no better at making armor than bounty hunters when their armor comes from the same profession.

Doesn't the legacy bonuses coming up and the excellent story arc for each class promote leveling alts? Why can't you make an alt and level up your crafting to take advantage of the Synthweaving augment crits?

 

I have to say, it sounds like you want your main to have a particular crew skill with a bonus crit chance but because you do not have it you decide that this is a problem that requires the developers to make overarching changes to the item mods.

Little off-topic there, but as I indicated in my original post, I am taking that option into serious consideration. The point is, I don't feel like I should have to. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that Inquisitors should be able to be just as good at Synthweaving as warriors are.

It is my feeling, that players who engage in general farming activities FOR THE PURPOSE of squeezing an extra percent or two in stats are the least skilled players of all.

I hit 50 (Sith Assassin) last night and was nervous as hell about entering a Warzone due to a whole bunch of crap I read about sucking in Warzones without full on PvP gear...

Let me just tell you, the two warzones I played last night were more fun than any warzones played in 1-49 bracket and I'm 40 Valor. I did more DPS damage burst then ever thanks to finally acquiring voltaic slash and I didn't feel like a glass cannon either. I picked up 6 & 7 medals respectively with 17 & 23 kills.

I was expecting to get my butt kicked and PvP to be like when I was lvl 12 all over again getting 2 - 5 kills and 2 medals... NOT SO!

I had on Centurion Bracers and the rest of my gear was orange with Armor/Mod/Enhancement Purples (lvl 49 Rank 48 gear) - I haven't even opened dailies on Ilum or Belsavis yet...

Honestly I found my burst dmg to be so much better and my survivability to be the same.

PvP is very technique/skill dependent: good gear does not make up for inferior play. While I only have two WZ's under my belt at 50. I feel like so many players rush to 50 as soon as possible and when they do get to Warzones they spent very little time playing in 1-49 and lack the skill and probably gave little thought to maximizing gear. For example I didn't wear the 2 Centurion Implants I bought because a 1 - 3% boost in expertise was not worth a big drop in crit/surge. I also didn't buy any Champion piece right away because Stalker PvP gear is so biased towards accuracy and I didn't want to lose my Power/Crit stats. So I am saving for the Champion Saber which actually does have a meaningful impact on my stats.

I know I got off topic here, but last night was joyous indeed as I was concerned I would have to go through weeks of grinding/getting my butt kicked to acquire gear in order to have a decent PvP experience, NOT SO!

Cheers!

Personally I do not understand why each class does not have access to the same companion bonuses in some combination.

No one knows what the math is on the bonuses but I have found them to be considerably relative. My main is a biochem and I crit craft meds maybe 1 out of 4-6. My alt is artifice with a profession that has no bonuses to it, I am mid 300's atm, and have yet to crit on a single craft.

In terms of biochem let me explain what this does. If I am crafting an item which I can sell for 10k/per and crit once in every 5 builds, I can sell the same item for 8334/per and net the same credits. This allows me to be more competitive on the GTN if competition demands it.

Now as an artifice crafter with no bonuses I will not enjoy that same pricing flexibility. This isn't so much an issue of min/max'ing.

Even if you agree with it or not, some people play mmos for the crafting and markets, just like others play for the pew pew or rp. What the OP is pointing out amounts to a combat imbalance in pvp, which if happened, there would be QQ galore. I do not agree with his solutions, there are much easier alternatives....namely access to additional companions that would allow us to dismiss current ones...that would be great story content for later on down the line...

edit: yeah I know artifice has no crit to crafting, but the fact remains that it is a valid example of biochem vs artifice crafting instead of artifice crafting with crit vs artifice without crit

I feel like you're ignoring something very important, here, OP:

having 10000/10000 reputation with your companion gives you something like +20-25% critical chance on all crafting missions that companion does, regardless of individual bonus.

in addition, having maximum rep also decreases the amount of time it takes for your companion to complete a mission.

the inherent bonuses from companions are just flavor - icing on the cake, if you will. When things really matter, at level 50 with high-end items, where if you min/max you MUST have the augment slot, you also have the opportunity to make sure your companion is at maximum rep level.

bottom line here is that you're suggesting a massive change to the crafting system, something that is unheard of in almost all MMOs, because of nothing more than an issue of personal preference.

rep max your companions, and you will get the crits you want.

All of my classes from main to alt picked a skill regardless of companions + factor.

I get crits from Khem Val with my Synthweaving quite often and get a chuckle every time he is crafting thinking of him mumbling over the task.

I get crits with many of my crafting skills, and as I stated, they were not chosen for the companion crafting skill bonus.

As above was stated, Max your companion affection as this is what greatly improves your chances at a crit.

I see no need to change what you call "pigeonholing" a companions skill bonus. I don't have a problem, and I don't care about "not having the crit on" this or that companion, because I want it my way.

Besides, as was stated above before, let BW take care of the problems at hand that are important before being bugged about inconsequential wants/desires, not needs, first.