I just think picking the highest dps laser and deciding that it needs buffs because burst laser is a thing is not wise.

So when are you going to use LLC's on your Gunship or Battlescout?

So when are you going to use LLC's on your Gunship or Battlescout?

If they nerfed TT and BO, would LLCs be more desirable compared to BLCs? Or would a direct nerf to BLCs be required to make LLCs a more viable option?

If they nerfed TT and BO, would LLCs be more desirable compared to BLCs? Or would a direct nerf to BLCs be required to make LLCs a more viable option?

it would take a direct nerf.

If they nerfed TT and BO, would LLCs be more desirable compared to BLCs? Or would a direct nerf to BLCs be required to make LLCs a more viable option?

The latter. BLC has disturbingly only offensive upgrade where all other cannons have some that are more neutral/QoL.

Also if only BLC is a thing with TT and BO, then change the common denominator : BLC.

 

Also if only BLC is a thing with TT and BO, then change the common denominator : BLC.

Agree with the logic -- most people in other threads do not seem to though...

So when are you going to use LLC's on your Gunship or Battlescout?

Never. But what does that mean?

Put it on a Starguard, it would see use there! It sees use on speed/sensor scouts.

Is it used on bombers? Does it need to get the same range as heavy laser now too?

If you ended up being able to tunnel an enemy at close range for more than a few seconds AND that enemy couldn't have charged plating, you would beat a path to LLC's door. If BLC didn't have armor pen or LLC did, you would definitely see a lot of players switch up as well. BLC is poor dps, but we all know the things it has that make up for that.

I think the fact that LLC is chosen less is not a big deal at all. BLC is rare, BLC has reasons you pick it over the high dps LLC, and it's actually a choice of sorts.

Never. But what does that mean?

 

Put it on a Starguard, it would see use there! It sees use on speed/sensor scouts.

Is it used on bombers? Does it need to get the same range as heavy laser now too?

 

If you ended up being able to tunnel an enemy at close range for more than a few seconds AND that enemy couldn't have charged plating, you would beat a path to LLC's door. If BLC didn't have armor pen or LLC did, you would definitely see a lot of players switch up as well. BLC is poor dps, but we all know the things it has that make up for that.

 

 

I think the fact that LLC is chosen less is not a big deal at all. BLC is rare, BLC has reasons you pick it over the high dps LLC, and it's actually a choice of sorts.

I'm saying that if LLC's immense DPS were as powerful in practice as it is on paper, then it would actually be chosen as something other than a last resort to avoid rapids. But because of the tracking penalty, no one ever comes close to actually using that DPS except against turrets. That is the only scenario in real GSF combat where a target is both centered and within 4k for more than a split second.

I'll do far more sustained damage in a Blackbolt or Bloodmark by using Medium Lasers and a Range capacitor, and getting prolonged, consistent fire on foes at the 4500-5750m sweet spot, than I will trying to hit them with LLC's at sub 4k ranges.

I understand trepidation about giving any buff to a weapon which has a "best in game" quality (in this case LLC's theoretical DPS). But again, I think that DPS is so hard to apply that it's pretty much only useful against brand new pilots who fly straight.

And honestly, if reducing the tracking penalty made LLC's the new overpowered FOTY cannon ... I'd be completely fine with that. We've lived with overpowered BLC's--available on only two ships--for how many months now?

A meta where LLC's are the best short range cannons would be awesome, because it would give close-range offensive teeth to such a broad swath of ships: all Scouts, all Bombers, T2 and T3 Strikes, T1 Gunships ... the best part is that Battle Scouts and T1 Gunships wouldn't even be nerfed by it, since they could switch to LLC's if they wanted. The only way they'd be "nerfed" is that suddenly there'd be 7 new ship variants who could threaten them at close range.

It'd create a lot more iconic "pew pew pew" sustained fire dogfighting, and BLC's would be relegated to a more specialized playstyle choice instead of a mandatory selection the meta makes for you.

It all sounds pretty awesome to me. I welcome our new LLC overlords with open arms. It would be a shame that T1 Strikes wouldn't get them--at the very least, Ion Cannons should also have their tracking penalty reduced.

The latter. BLC has disturbingly only offensive upgrade where all other cannons have some that are more neutral/QoL.

 

Also if only BLC is a thing with TT and BO, then change the common denominator : BLC.

I though quads were also a thing with TT and BO.

I though quads were also a thing with TT and BO.

Well, BO and TT are, by their nature, inherently risky to have in the game, since they are an extra offensive cooldown that only one class of ship gets.

Though I'd say Quads synergize less dramatically with BO and TT than BLC does. You do have to keep a target lined up for a least a full second or three (depending on target durability), and you have to keep the target in sweet spot distance wise (4000-5750). The target generally has more options to delay or evade you.

I though quads were also a thing with TT and BO.

Why would they ? They have roughly the same upgrades than all other cannons beside BLC and HLC, so I don't see how they would synergy more than most cannons, especially when considering that QLC is the most classic possible and in line with others when it comes to its damage profile.

<snip> BLC is poor dps, but we all know the things it has that make up for that. <snip>

That's the funniest thing I've heard in ...

Oh wait, you're serious?!?

I'm saying that if LLC's immense DPS were as powerful in practice as it is on paper, then it would actually be chosen as something other than a last resort to avoid rapids. But because of the tracking penalty, no one ever comes close to actually using that DPS except against turrets.

Again, I reject the premise; it's ridiculous. The tracking penalty just straight up is not the big deal you're making it out to be.

Let's be clear: at 11 degrees out and 3000m, BLC and LLC have identical accuracy. At 21 degrees out LLC is penalized a whopping 5% relative to BLC.

It just isn't an issue.

Not to mention plenty of good scouts (i.e. Rumina) use quads. And some strike fighters manage to do something with (gasp) heavy lasers.

Again, I reject the premise; it's ridiculous. The tracking penalty just straight up is not the big deal you're making it out to be.

 

Let's be clear: at 11 degrees out and 3000m, BLC and LLC have identical accuracy. At 21 degrees out LLC is penalized a whopping 5% relative to BLC.

 

It just isn't an issue.

 

Not to mention plenty of good scouts (i.e. Rumina) use quads. And some strike fighters manage to do something with (gasp) heavy lasers.

Quads, Mediums and Heavies all have both inherently longer range and a range upgrade. Quads and Mediums, with a range capacitor can have a range of 5750m. Heavies can have a range of 6900m. And they all have a pretty slow rate of fire. At either of those ranges, it's quite easy to center and keep centered any target that isn't boosting. It's quite easy to hit with the majority of your slow shots and keep your actual DPS high. It's an entirely different playstyle. I know, because I run Mediums/Pods on my Blackbolt and Quads/Pods on my Sting and have for months. And regardless of what you think, many people (including some who you fly with) think I am a "good scout".

But I also make no attempt at winning a turning war or fighting under a satellite with that build, because that is not what those long range weapons are designed for.

But Light Laser Cannons, with their 4000m range, are designed for turning wars and close range fighting. But I've yet to meet any Elite who can use LLC's effectively in any ship. You'd think someone would use them--after all they have the highest DPS of ANY primary ... on paper. The problem is you have to get a consistent stream of shots in the sub-second timeframe to actually achieve that theoretical DPS.

That's hard to do, because the moment you hit someone, they juke, and tracking them at that close distance is difficult.

Compare with BLC's, where as soon as you hit someone, the damage is done. They can juke all they want--you just have to line them up again by the time 1.3 seconds rolls around.

Perhaps Tracking Penalty is not the issue. Perhaps rate of fire is is the sole differentiator between these weapons, which makes BLC's feel good and effective, but makes LLC's feel impotent and frustrating. But clearly something needs to be done to make the primary short-range weapon, equippable by 9 of the 12 ship variants, be desirable and lethal.

I singled out tracking penalty because I felt like I was missing an unusual amount at the edges of my firing arc, and because I see little reason for LLC's to have a higher penalty than other short-range weapons (your "shotgun theme" argument excepted). If the math says it shouldn't be a big issue, then I'll believe you on that. Though I am going to try using Wingman and see if that improves my perceived effectiveness.

But maybe another fix is required for LLC's. Maybe it needs a range upgrade in its tree or have its rate of fire adjusted to have more damage per shot. But I would hope we can all agree that, because of it being so widely available, LLC is a fulcrum in terms of promoting variant and build variety. If its desirability was substantially increased, the meta might change substantially.

You know, okay, hang on a second here, guys.

If I'm understanding things correctly, BLCs are, in the right circumstances, a righteous shield or the wrathful might of God Almighty condensed down into a laser that you can smack somebody across the face with faster than you can take a Bible to a heretic's hide.

Then let's get something straight: I don't use them.

Can I understand the appeal? Yes. I've maxed BLCs and taken them into battle on two separate ships. I've fiddled the talents and components for what is supposedly the most optimal spread, modified my tactics to account for its weaknesses, and charged headlong into the fray, painted in the old Pictish battle patterns and giving my best Woad scream.

And you know what I found? I didn't like 'em. I just didn't think they fit my playstyle. And I went back to basically what I was doing.

Now, given that on a Quarrel, it's pretty much BLCs, LLCs or the farm, I went with LLCs. I continue to fly with LLCs. They are not gimpy weapons. They are not throwing ping pong balls at a Sherman tank. I have overcome tracking penalties, I have overcome range limitations, I have overcome tight firing arcs, and I have overcome the stupid cattlescout who somehow thought going into a death roll with me was a GOOD idea, and I have earned kills with them. I've earned kills on the best, I have earned kills on the worst.

Now, they're not an immediate-killing weapon. I didn't ask them to be. If I wanted something that meant 'death-on-eye-contact', I would probably go with something else. But when the bad guys get close, and I've got to get my hands dirty, I will happily trust myself and my K/D ratio to my LLCs.

They feel better to me. Mathematically, they might be absolutely terrible. But if my only other option is something I don't enjoy flying with, you can bet I'm going to get really comfortable using them, and hang the math!

And this, I find, is something that really seems to escape a lot of people on these forums. 'This component is useless,' 'you're a fool if you pick that component', 'this weapon is a bunch of spitwads', why not just play with things, find something that feels comfortable, gets the job done, and lets you have fun? Develop your own playstyle based on what you enjoy, not on what everyone else tells you. I'm really getting tired of being told that if I don't pick BLCs on anything that can equip it, I must have the brain worms!

Just because a component doesn't fit your playstyle doesn't make it invalid for the rest of us.

Except Munitions Capacity Extender on a T1 Gunship...that--that doesn't make the least bit of sense.

You know, okay, hang on a second here, guys.

 

If I'm understanding things correctly, BLCs are, in the right circumstances, a righteous shield or the wrathful might of God Almighty condensed down into a laser that you can smack somebody across the face with faster than you can take a Bible to a heretic's hide.

 

Then let's get something straight: I don't use them.

 

Can I understand the appeal? Yes. I've maxed BLCs and taken them into battle on two separate ships. I've fiddled the talents and components for what is supposedly the most optimal spread, modified my tactics to account for its weaknesses, and charged headlong into the fray, painted in the old Pictish battle patterns and giving my best Woad scream.

 

And you know what I found? I didn't like 'em. I just didn't think they fit my playstyle. And I went back to basically what I was doing.

 

Now, given that on a Quarrel, it's pretty much BLCs, LLCs or the farm, I went with LLCs. I continue to fly with LLCs. They are not gimpy weapons. They are not throwing ping pong balls at a Sherman tank. I have overcome tracking penalties, I have overcome range limitations, I have overcome tight firing arcs, and I have overcome the stupid cattlescout who somehow thought going into a death roll with me was a GOOD idea, and I have earned kills with them. I've earned kills on the best, I have earned kills on the worst.

 

Now, they're not an immediate-killing weapon. I didn't ask them to be. If I wanted something that meant 'death-on-eye-contact', I would probably go with something else. But when the bad guys get close, and I've got to get my hands dirty, I will happily trust myself and my K/D ratio to my LLCs.

 

They feel better to me. Mathematically, they might be absolutely terrible. But if my only other option is something I don't enjoy flying with, you can bet I'm going to get really comfortable using them, and hang the math!

 

And this, I find, is something that really seems to escape a lot of people on these forums. 'This component is useless,' 'you're a fool if you pick that component', 'this weapon is a bunch of spitwads', why not just play with things, find something that feels comfortable, gets the job done, and lets you have fun? Develop your own playstyle based on what you enjoy, not on what everyone else tells you. I'm really getting tired of being told that if I don't pick BLCs on anything that can equip it, I must have the brain worms!

 

Just because a component doesn't fit your playstyle doesn't make it invalid for the rest of us.

 

Except Munitions Capacity Extender on a T1 Gunship...that--that doesn't make the least bit of sense.

Actually the entire original premise of my post was that Light Laser Cannons don't feel right. I just feel like I miss far more often with them than I should. I thought it was the tracking penalty, but Kuciwalker says it must be that I'm bad at this game. I guess myself and the 90% of other GSF players I dominate on a regular basis should just quit and go home--there's no place for us here.

Actually the entire original premise of my post was that Light Laser Cannons don't feel right..

No, no, no, hang on, lemme fix this for you.

They don't feel right...to you.

Which probably means they don't fit your playstyle, which means I can only recommend that you try something else.

No, no, no, hang on, lemme fix this for you.

 

They don't feel right...to you.

 

Which probably means they don't fit your playstyle, which means I can only recommend that you try something else.

I am happy you've found success with them, but until I see a Scout rocking LLC's get 20+ kills on a regular basis, and until I hear from a bunch of other Gunship pilots using LLC's, I'm going to assume LLC's need a buff of some sort.

The overwhelming majority of Battle Scout and Gunship pilots don't use BLC's because they feel better. They use them because they have more predictable, reliable success with them. And honestly, I think if you practiced more with BLC's, you'd become an even better and more dangerous Gunship pilot. I know I did once I made the switch.

I am happy you've found success with them, but until I see a Scout rocking LLC's get 20+ kills on a regular basis, and until I hear from a bunch of other Gunship pilots using LLC's, I'm going to assume LLC's need a buff of some sort.

 

The overwhelming majority of Battle Scout and Gunship pilots don't use BLC's because they feel better. They use them because they have more predictable, reliable success with them. And honestly, I think if you practiced more with BLC's, you'd become an even better and more dangerous Gunship pilot. I know I did once I made the switch.

And I say that the inverse is equally true: if that overwhelming majority tried practicing with LLCs, instead of being spoon-fed the sugary mathematical-sounding forum spiel about how BLCs are the righteous hand of God, they could probably be competitive with them as well.

I am happy you've found success with them, but until I see a Scout rocking LLC's get 20+ kills on a regular basis, and until I hear from a bunch of other Gunship pilots using LLC's, I'm going to assume LLC's need a buff of some sort.

On the feel issue it may just be a matter of perspective.

If you spend a lot of time in a type 2 scout with BLCs probably every other weapon in the game (except maybe cluster missiles) is relatively difficult to land shots with.

If you spend little time in a BLC equipped scout then LLCs feel a lot like RFLs with the pleasing difference of actually doing significant damage.

I've got LLCs equipped on my Clarion, and I'm pretty pleased with them as a close range weapon. Normally I'd prefer the greater range of quads or heavies on a strike, but since I need to get into the thick of things to get friendlies in the radius of my buffs having a short range weapon makes sense, and LLCs are a pretty good short range weapon. It's just that you have to try to center the HUD over the lead indicator before shooting instead of shooting as soon as the target enters your field of vision.

On the feel issue it may just be a matter of perspective.

I've got LLCs equipped on my Clarion, and I'm pretty pleased with them as a close range weapon..

No problem you can do it yourself. LLC+BO + Sab probe = enjoy. Good luck and I look forward to hearing your results. For what it's worth when I originally made a name for myself on The Harbinger it was with a dog fight spec Pike. LLC + CLuster+ Concussions ran it with good success until 2.6 and bombers.

Well yes ... naturally LLC's synergize extremely well with Sabotage Probe. Hitting with Sabotage Probe means you get several seconds of your target being stationary, so of course the highest sustained DPS cannon in the game is going to be the best thing to use there

The problem is only two ships have Sabotage Probe, whereas nine ships have LLC's. So LLC's still need to be desirable for those other 7 ships. For example, my original post was driven by my trying to use LLC's on my Bloodmark. I can use every other primary weapon in the game effectively, assuming I'm using it at its intended range. But I can't say the same of LLC's, which is why I wondered if perhaps the Tracking Penalty is too severe.

This has me thinking. Would Command and Wingman on the Clarion help negate the accuracy problem?

I tried Wingman on my Bloodmark last night, and when it is in effect LLC's are far, far easier to use. They feel very good then. This leads me to believe that Tracking Penalty is indeed a pretty significant hit on LLC's, despite Kuciwalker's vehement and reasoned disagreement.

I'm wondering if perhaps the issue is that we're making false assumptions about "Firing Arc" and what it represents. I think most people assume "Firing Arc" is the diameter of the firing circle. If that's the case, then on my Bloodmark, if I'm firing my LLC's at the edge of their circle, then I'm suffering a 13% penalty (34 degrees / 2 * 1% per degree - 5%).

But if Firing Arc is the radius of the circle, then if I'm firing my LLC's at the edge, I'm suffering a 29% penalty (34 degrees * 1% per degree - 5%).

From my perception, it feels more like the latter. That would also jive with me having a much better experience when using Wingman (9% penalty is a lot less crippling than 29%).

Let's compare this with BLC's... shooting at the same angle outward (34 or 17 degrees), even though BLC's can shoot a bit further.

If Firing Arc is the diameter, then with BLC's I'll be suffering a 3.5% penalty (34 degrees / 2 * 0.5% per degree - 5%). In this case it's BLC's at 3.5% vs. LLC's at 13%. A moderate difference, but not one I'm sure would stand out in terms of human perception.

If Firing Arc is the radius, then with BLC's I'll be suffering a 12% penalty (34 degrees * 0.5% per degree - 5%). In this case it's BLC's at 12% vs. LLC's at 29%. That's quite a bit bigger difference, and one I think I'd start to feel, especially with a fast-firing weapon. Ignoring base accuracy and target evasion for the moment, let's assume I have a 71% chance to hit with each LLC shot at the edge of my arc. If I fire ~three shots in one second, the chance that all three will hit is just ~36%. The change that even two will hit is just ~50%. This math seems to mesh well with the performance I perceive from LLC's.

Kuci, I'm curious what you think of this hypothesis (that Firing Arc is the radius of the circle, meaning Tracking Penalties build quite quickly).

Perhaps Tracking Penalty is not the issue. Perhaps rate of fire is is the sole differentiator between these weapons, which makes BLC's feel good and effective, but makes LLC's feel impotent and frustrating.

Yes, except they don't feel "impotent and frustrating", just less powerful than BLCs. I use them on my Novadive and they feel fine.

But clearly something needs to be done to make the primary short-range weapon, equippable by 9 of the 12 ship variants, be desirable and lethal.

The answer is to nerf BLCs, not buff LLCs. BLC's advantage is non-statistical (or at least, doesn't show up in the naive statistics). Ergo if you buffed LLCs to be equal to BLCs then they would have to show very clear statistical discrepancies with the other weapons.

Actually the entire original premise of my post was that Light Laser Cannons don't feel right. I just feel like I miss far more often with them than I should. I thought it was the tracking penalty, but Kuciwalker says it must be that I'm bad at this game. I guess myself and the 90% of other GSF players I dominate on a regular basis should just quit and go home--there's no place for us here.

I think that they (and RFLs, and well anything with a high rate of fire) suffer the most from lag issues. I'm not entirely sure why, but they do the worst until your lag catches up, as far as I can tell. It always seems that the 1st "shot" always misses when I first get on the target and fire immediately, regardless of the tracking/range/buffs/debuffs.

I think that they (and RFLs, and well anything with a high rate of fire) suffer the most from lag issues. I'm not entirely sure why, but they do the worst until your lag catches up, as far as I can tell. It always seems that the 1st "shot" always misses when I first get on the target and fire immediately, regardless of the tracking/range/buffs/debuffs.

I notice this on pretty much every weapon, even BLC's. First shot misses more often than not. It doesn't happen every time, because I know there have been times where I am surprised a cold-open shot hits (plus its damage appears instantly over the target, the moment I press the trigger to shoot and before the laser reaches the ship).

I wonder if there is some cludgy bit in the code that either cancels damage from a first shot or hides the flytext, so as to obscure the fact that hit-checking is done the moment you fire, and not based on some actual 3D collision detection between ship and laser bolt.