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Request for some defensive buffs for Vanguards/PTs in Warzones.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Request for some defensive buffs for Vanguards/PTs in Warzones.

omaan's Avatar


omaan
07.17.2017 , 07:02 AM | #21
Guys, i fear that devs are not even thinking about doing something with pt's defense :/ no one is playing for this class anymore, it's nearly dead. The squishiest class in the game both in ranked and unranked

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
07.17.2017 , 08:15 AM | #22
Such a shame, we really need some more ranged options or some better defensive options for Pt's. If they would just make railshot and maybe shatter slug 30m and buffed the utility for magnetic blast to 15m I think Pt's would already be a lot better again. Either that or we need some defensive tools, because as it is Pt's need to get in the thick of it to do any effective damage and they don't have the defensive tools to do so

Thaladan's Avatar


Thaladan
07.17.2017 , 11:16 AM | #23
railshot at 30m is just so obviously needed.
Elite warlord sorcerer- sniper - powertech

JHeezey's Avatar


JHeezey
07.27.2017 , 04:40 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post

If you want all the same things maras and juggs have, stop acting like a semi ranged class than, because, you cannot tell me having all those 30' attack options doesn't matter. You can call PTs a mDPS class all you like, but, I think they should start acting like it. Whether or not they do that, I still think they need another DCD.

If you want all the marauder dcds which, without a healer will not keep you alive for long in PVP, loss the ability to spam a 30' attack. Loss a potentially 40' attack, lose 15 seconds of 9 attacks at 30' ranged. If you want to keep those things, than no, you shouldn't have all the same DCDs because you are not operating under the same constraints that Marauders and Juggs are.
It is this statement that makes me very confident that you don't play PT. You do realize that using the utility to extend our range to 30' for that "spammable" attack will deplete our resources extremely quickly by forcing us out of our rotation and also prevents us from using 3 of our core abilities at that range (which are all higher damage)? You say we have 30' attack options - in reality we have a 30' resource sink that every PT will tell you is absolutely useless in PvP or PvE. The massive hit to DPS and resources does not justify taking the utility.

I do agree with you that the best balance update for the game would be to move DPS away from self heals - however I have zero confidence that that will ever happen. Pragmatically, it is not too much to ask for a defensive buff to our self heal and shield.

And let's look at it subjectively: what is the class that get's insta-focussed in PvP? Have you ever had problems focusing that class down? I main VG and I can tell you that PTs are by far the easiest to kill, 248-geared or otherwise. Sure, maybe you got popped by a PT/VG a couple times, but that's almost certainly not in a 1v1 when you had an equal number of CDs available. PT/VG cannot meaningfully contribute to ranked PvP - period. We need a fix, and we need it now.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
07.27.2017 , 04:59 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by JHeezey View Post
It is this statement that makes me very confident that you don't play PT. You do realize that using the utility to extend our range to 30' for that "spammable" attack will deplete our resources extremely quickly by forcing us out of our rotation and also prevents us from using 3 of our core abilities at that range (which are all higher damage)? You say we have 30' attack options - in reality we have a 30' resource sink that every PT will tell you is absolutely useless in PvP or PvE. The massive hit to DPS and resources does not justify taking the utility.

I do agree with you that the best balance update for the game would be to move DPS away from self heals - however I have zero confidence that that will ever happen. Pragmatically, it is not too much to ask for a defensive buff to our self heal and shield.

And let's look at it subjectively: what is the class that get's insta-focussed in PvP? Have you ever had problems focusing that class down? I main VG and I can tell you that PTs are by far the easiest to kill, 248-geared or otherwise. Sure, maybe you got popped by a PT/VG a couple times, but that's almost certainly not in a 1v1 when you had an equal number of CDs available. PT/VG cannot meaningfully contribute to ranked PvP - period. We need a fix, and we need it now.
I don't think there is any question of a need for defensive improvement for PTs, I think that's understood, the only question is in the manner of that defensive improvement.

For the Tanks, they can have Merc DCDs, they are not as inappropriate for a tank as they are for DPS. But for the DPS specs, they should have DCDs in line with other melee DPS specs, which is why I suggested something along the lines of Saberward in it's effects.

The merc DCDs are inappropriate for any DPS spec of any class in my opinion.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
07.28.2017 , 09:56 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
I don't think there is any question of a need for defensive improvement for PTs, I think that's understood, the only question is in the manner of that defensive improvement.

For the Tanks, they can have Merc DCDs, they are not as inappropriate for a tank as they are for DPS. But for the DPS specs, they should have DCDs in line with other melee DPS specs, which is why I suggested something along the lines of Saberward in it's effects.

The merc DCDs are inappropriate for any DPS spec of any class in my opinion.
TBH for merc if they just remove Trauma regulators (heal on shield) merc will be fairly balanced in terms of suvivability. The KO is about right. It is a 180 CD it should be fairly strong. The reflect rewards idiocy as it heals you if people continue to mindlessly attack. In higher level of game play it gives merc 6 secs of focus fire relive, which is much needed for a cast based class.

As for PT, I think just adding reflect should be more than enough for AP and tank. For pyro just 25% reduced damage on taunt on top of reflect. I would really like to get rid of the leap and return back the 30 meter options and lower CD HO. As it currently stands, PT dps has no way to compete with other top melee dps in neither damage or surivability in any shape or form. As a main PT, I have been maining mara since 5.0. The current difference in effectiveness between PT and mara is like comparing a high school football quarterback with an NFL quarterback.

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
07.28.2017 , 11:20 AM | #27
What I think is needed:

1 new ability to make up for the loss of Full Auto, Explosive Round & Sticky grenade.
Sry but Flak Shell (one ability) doesn't make up for losing three
Not to mention commando gained 1 new ability, which puts us further behind

2 New DCD for vanguard or stronger ones,
I would like Adrenaline Rush to be buffed, preferably so its more like a Second Wind Mechanic

Either restore Riot Gas pre-nerf or make it so that it is a two pronged function
Buff allies, nerf enemies, for the same efficient amount

What I would like personally (little spoilt though) XD:

Flak Shell getting a non damage related buff.
Either like a huge Sunder bomb or something unique tied to Vanguard that seperates them from others, probably something aoe friendly. Maybe even overwhelm but i doubt it

Hinder mechanics so we're on par with commando
Electro net is a broken ability imo. But they swiped our Hold the line, which makes me kinda butthurt.
Somebody mentioned the ability the place landmines (sorry for lack of reference)
it was an awesome idea, if it leads to like, a hinder if somebody steps on one... could have huge swing potential

Remove Transpose from shield spec or buff it by adding shield spec related talents
I dont personally feel this is a tank specific ability and I also feel dps spec vanguard could benefit from the use of this skill more than a tank would!

Remove the selfless mentality from tank/utilities
One is enough, that being; Sonic Rebounder.
But Strategic Supremacy leaves lots of room for potential, especially considering what they did to Guardian's Freezing force (mainly that it no longer effects everyone EXCEPT the user)

JHeezey's Avatar


JHeezey
07.29.2017 , 12:01 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
I don't think there is any question of a need for defensive improvement for PTs, I think that's understood, the only question is in the manner of that defensive improvement.

For the Tanks, they can have Merc DCDs, they are not as inappropriate for a tank as they are for DPS. But for the DPS specs, they should have DCDs in line with other melee DPS specs, which is why I suggested something along the lines of Saberward in it's effects.

The merc DCDs are inappropriate for any DPS spec of any class in my opinion.
Alright, my apologies - obviously this an emotional topic for us PT/VG mains getting stomped right now. As long as we get something to help us with the whole "the enemy team has decided to delete you, enjoy the respawn area" issue I'm fine with whatever form that takes.

Kuvox's Avatar


Kuvox
08.05.2017 , 07:36 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by KainrycKarr View Post
This is a non-argument. I've got seven (don't play sorc) of the AC's that I've played since 5.0 dropped. PT has far and away the lowest survivability besides possibly Sorc DPS. I will run circles around the best Powertech in a 1v1 with my sniper, merc(lol), jug, or mara. Op and Sin are similar, though require a higher degree of finesse.
I have all 8 ACs, and play all but two of them regularly. I decided to play my DPS PT again this week after not having played him since leveling him to 70 (and not having PVPd on him in a very long time). All I can say is: DPS spec'd PTs are, without a doubt, the squishiest class in the game, and by a significant margin. I main a Sorc and Sage and have been a relentless champion for that class but came to admit this week that they're far more robust and resilient than DPS PTs, especially in PVP. I kept reading through my PT abilities and utilities thinking I was doing something wrong, only to finally realize that this is currently how it's intended to be. The difference between this class and snipers and mercs is almost mind-blowing. As others have said in this thread, this class needs more defensives to make it competitive. It doesn't need merc-or sniper-level defensives, because we can put out significant damage when not targeted, but enough to bring this class back to life.
Kuvox | Rakit | Ethelmerman - The Ebon Hawk & The Harbinger

PrometheanDeath's Avatar


PrometheanDeath
08.05.2017 , 11:43 PM | #30
Probably the easiest way to justify a PT defensive buff/utility buff. Think we should notice that every single class has a defensive buff in legendary except PTs.
-Juggernauts add an extra 2 seconds of duration (Making it 5 seconds duration) to saber reflect which absorbs all direct single target damage which is no problem to negate most damage dealt to them in that time.
- Marauders have ruthless aggressor resisting most if not all tech attacks (75% chance) for 6 seconds on obfuscate which has a min CD, or 45 seconds with another utility. And while not used often heal 3% max health while being attacked while saber ward is up called blood ward.
-Sorcs have healing due to their god bubble, static barrier, and added shield after god bubble. And a damage reduction/CD reduction on their self heal (making it 25 second CD and 25% dmg reduction for 6 seconds).
-Sins have force speed absorbing 60% all damage taken for the natural 2 second duration, and increasing the duration of shroud and force speed (by 2 seconds and .5 seconds respectively).
-Mercs have trauma regulators which is an all around agreed, OP utility defensive.
-Snipers make their ballistic shield grant not only damage reduction to themselves with enemies being under the shield upon activation, but also rapid healing, which is more than kolto overload while under their shield. And lets not forget a passive 5% dmg reduction by staying in cover and decreasing ballistic shield CD by 30 seconds, and if chosen 10% max health heal after every roll and adding another 2 seconds to their evasion.
-And Operatives have revitalizers which increases dmg reduction by 20% and healing them 5% max health every 3 seconds both lasting 15 seconds (Which also means it triggers more than a tank or Pyro's shoulder cannon heal). And having Augmented shields increasing shield probes damage it can absorb by 30%.
-Pts on the other hand lack something that contributes as much as every utility as all these other classes have. 3% max health per shoulder cannon isn't a good enough heal to even take, as that is only about 4K heal (assuming 130K health) and tanks normally use shoulder cannon as a threat builder. And only to Dps specs 5% damage reduction for 15 seconds after activating explosive fuel, is such a laughable utility, because to make it even worse, increases your dmg by 5% if you are a tank instead.
~ And this isn't even considering defensive utilities in heroic or lower, because marauders and mercs would just prove this even more, and it would be too long of a list.

Now to move onto tank comparison. assuming set bonuses
Juggernauts are known for being the CD tank, and thus have really strong CDs.
Saber reflect which was covered above text with a min CD.
Enraged defense which heals roughly 3-4K per charge consumed with 12 charges, pretty strong for rapid hits, and is almost guaranteed effective healing min 30 sec CD on top of that.
Saber ward having the 3min CD, protects against all damage types for 12 seconds, 50% ranged and melee defense (100% for 5 seconds due to tank set bonus boost blade turning, 2 seconds for Dps specs) and absorbing all force/tech damage by 25%.
Invincible 40% dmg reduction for 12 seconds (15 with set bonus) 2min 30 CD, which is basically a stronger Energy shield taking 15% extra dmg reduction for only an added 30 second CD.
Endure Pain a 30% fake health bar for 20 seconds (10 seconds for Dps classes) 1min CD.
And a not widely known one, Intimidating roar decreases melee/range dmg by 15% for 8 seconds on all targets 1min CD.

PT tanks: Energy shield increases dmg reduction by 25% for 19 seconds 2min CD. Basically the strongest CD a PT tank has already outclassed by the iconic invincible CD juggs have, and other CDs mentioned about sin in a bit.
Oil slick reduces melee/ranged accuracy of all targets by 15% for 13 seconds, which is an rng defensive that isn't guaranteed, and doesn't help against force/tech, luckily only having a 1min CD.
Explosive fuel increase defense change by 35% for 15 seconds, which like oil slick, defense chance only works against melee/ranged and not force/tech dmg and is an rng defensive, has twice the CD of oil slick at 2min.
Last CD owned by PTs is Kolto overload, which lasts 8 seconds, triggers at 35% or lower, and brings them back up to 35%, tanks heal 2% max health every second while above 35%, which assuming a tank average of 120K health is 2500, a pretty terrible heal which a boss can easily knock away.
~ Hydraulics wasn't included as it is just a knockback prevent skill, no dmg is mitigated when it's used.

And now for the rated best tank, sin tank. Force speed covered in the above text, which only has a 15 second CD.
Dark ward, the iconic sin defensive, increases shield rating by 15% as long as it's up, and has a passive that increases absorb rating by up to 10%, CD 10 seconds last 20 seonds (15 charges, and even including chances to not remove charges) and is always up.
Deflection, lasting 15 seconds and a min 50 CD, has half of saber ward's effect, increasing ranged and melee defense chance by 50% for a lower CD.
Recklessness increasing absorb rating by 30% for 20 seconds min 30 CD, seems rather similar to PT's explosive fuel, except instead of defense is absorb, and loses 5% for 30 seconds lower on CD.
The most OP defense at a sins disposal, force shroud, negating all force and tech damage for 5 seconds with utility, 1min CD, and even less due to sin tanks parrying, shielding, etc.
And overcharge saber granting 25% damage reduction for 15 seconds, and healing the player for 15% max health, and heals the tank roughly 2300 max health every time dark charge is triggered 2min CD. Now wait, Overcharge saber looks kinda familiar? a 25% dmg reduction for 15 seconds, that's odd, energy shield does the same but for 4 seconds longer. Oh look there's also 2 healing effects on overcharge saber, that's convenient. And what's also interesting? it has the same CD as energy shield and not even considered their strongest CD unlike PTs, very interesting.

Now lets compare tank offensive abilities that add buffs.
Juggs: Aegis Assault increases Damage reduction and Shield Absorb by 3%, 20 second duration, 12 second CD (So it's always up).
Crushing Blow gives 2% damage reduction for 4 seconds, 12 sec CD.
Retaliation increases Melee/Range defense by 3%, and defense chance by 5% with no GCD.
Ravage boosting defense chance by 6%, 6 second duration, 18 second CD.
Force scream applying a moderate damage shield.
Seems like a nice amount of abilities and buffs to have.

PT tanks: Heat blast, increasing absorb rating by 30% for 6 seconds and 2% dmg reduction for 5 seconds.
Rocket Punch and Rail Shot add a stack of shield enhancers increasing shield chance by 1% per stack, 3 stacks at most. And that's the end of PT abilities.

Assassin tanks: Depredating volts and exiting stealth grant 4% dmg reduction for 12 seconds, which is usually always up unless down time prevents the use of depredating volts. Wither grants 2% dmg reduction for 3 seconds, 10 sec CD. While assassins have only 2 buffs granted by offensive abilities, they have many CDs to compensate.

In short in case you skipped to this bottom section due to a lot of words. PTs having little offensive attacks that add buffs like juggs, and the lowest amount CDs that are outclassed, by similar CDs that are owned by juggs and sins alike. PTs just don't have the defense capability to compete. They might have passives on their side, but so do the other tanks, and passives alone just can't compete in any scenario of damage, PvP or Pve.