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Request for some defensive buffs for Vanguards/PTs in Warzones.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Request for some defensive buffs for Vanguards/PTs in Warzones.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
07.10.2017 , 11:59 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by KainrycKarr View Post
It's a lot more than 1 defensive behind other classes. Let's compare DPS PT's active defensives with, say, marauder, who it shares that 4-10m range with.



Powertech

Shields (25% DR)

Advanced Prototype:
Kolto (8 secs of meh healing up to 35%)
Sonic missile (30% resist chance.)

Pyro:
Kolto (8 secs of meh healing up to 35% with 30% DR for the duration)

Marauder

Saber Ward (50% Ranged/Melee Defense, 25% Tech/Force DR)
Undying Rage (99% damage reduction for 4 seconds)
Obfuscate (90% Ranged/melee accuracy debuff on a single target for six seconds.)
Cloak of Pain (20% DR for for 6 seconds but is refreshed when hit, up to a maximum of 30 seconds).
Predation (Increases melee/ranged defense by 10%)

Just comparing these two, an AP spec PT's damage resistance is completely outclassed both in potency and duration by a BASE Marauder's.


Nearly every other class simply has more tools to mitigate incoming damage than a PT does. Hydraulic overrides for kiting? Great, except you can't really kite because you need to be 10m range to deal damage while defending yourself. Considering every melee spec has several 10m abilities, and trying to float between 4 and 10 meters is nigh impossible with latency, you basically still have to sit and eat that melee damage.


Ultimately, what boils down to PT's survivability issues is that it's DCD's were created in a time were mobility was it's strength and what really made it thrive. Now, it's a 4-10m class just like Maras, Jugs, Sins, and Operatives but everyone else has just as much if not more mobility, meaning that survivability advantage is moot.

So now Powertech is stuck trying to be a genuine melee class but without the defensives to keep in that 4-10m range and stay there.
You are right, Marauder's certainly have the greater DCDs, no question, but you will note by looking at your own listing of the DCDs, they also don't have any self heals which PT does [making Gyroscopic Alignment Jets more valued for PVP given the amount of CC that get's thrown around]

Powertech's should have some more DCD additon in line with other melee specs if they are to remain a purely melee dps spec themselves, for those specs that they have that are DPS.

You are however not taking into consideration some of AP's passive defenses.

Stabilized Armor, which reduces damage taken from area effects by 30%. Additionally, while stunned, you take 30% less damage from all sources, which is quite nice and very useful in PVP, where both AOE and CC are thrown around in great amounts.

Sonic Defense - Activating Sonic Missile increases your defense chance by 30% for 6 seconds.

Infrared Sensors - Increases your melee and ranged defense chance by 3% and your stealth detection level by 3.

Energy Rebounder - When you take damage, the active cooldown of Energy Shield is reduced by 3 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. In addition, when taking damage, you have a 20% chance to emit an Energy Redoubt, which absorbs a low amount of damage and lasts for 6 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds.

Close and Personal Increases the duration of Energy Shield by 3 seconds. In addition, suffering direct damage from area attacks heals you for 2.5% of your total health. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds.

I'm afraid I can't agree with your comparison of PT being akin to "4-10m class just like Maras, Juggs", that is not a fair representation of their current state. While certainly more limited in in it's ranged than it once was, it is not to the level of Marauder or Jugg, and has options that can even allow it to exceed Assassin's ranged attacks potentially. AP PT has a 30' attack, thermal detonator, which far exceeds any ranged attack a Marauder or a Jugg is capable of and it has a spammable basic attack at 30' which means it is literally constantly able to attack at range at all times. While admittedly the damage isn't very good, the fact that they have a spammable 30' ranged attack precludes them from being classed within the same spectrum of tradtional mDPS classes. The only "attack" option generally available to Marauders and Juggs at 30' is a gap closer, which, has a minimum range requirement in addition to a maximum ranged requirement and is far from spammable.

It has some utility choices that make their ranged options far greater than many melee specs, most notably Pressure Overrides allowing allowing Flame Burst, Magnetic Blast, Searing Wave, Firestorm, Shatter Slug, Deadly Onslaught, Heat Blast, Energy Burst, Immolate, and Scorch to be used at 30 meters for 15 seconds. That is quite a bit more ranged than Marauders and Juggs can come close to.

You might consider taking the Bracer Propellant utility as it Increases the range of Flame Burst and Magnetic Blast by 2 meters and the radius of Flame Sweep by 1 meter as well.

"Kiting" option improvements through utilities to go along with the added ranged options are plentiful. Pneumatic Boots increses movement by 15% while in combat which would help with kiting considerably in PVP where you are mostly in "combat" state, and Iron will and Torque Boosters helps some with that as well. Also Overdrive is nice, allowing Hydraulic Overrides to increase movement speed by an additional 45% while active. Battering Ram increasing movement speed by 30% for 6 seconds as well.

AP also offers a good deal with regard to group utility which is something to consider as well{Energy Rebounders and 30% AoE/Stun damage reduction,Sundered and Susceptible debuffs}.

It also has a considerably strong CC kit with utility choices that can augment it quite a bit.[ i.e. Mutilating Shards,Enhanced Paralytics, Suppressive Tools, Accelerated Reel, Adaptable Assailant,Reel and Rattle.

While granted it cannot hope to obtain all of these utility choices at once, they nonetheless remain options that if consolidated can effect great strides into their ranged, movement, CC kit augmentation.

It's important to consider some of the options, even passively, that they do have that do not really appear in more tradtional mDPS specs. Clearly they can use some defensive improvement, but it should be in a melee dps vain. Melee DPS shouldn't have base DCDs that effect heals as part of their design. Id argue even ranged DPS shouldn't, but, at least currently their is more precedent for that.

Making fair arguments against ranged DPS DCDs that have such strong heal aspects to them does not lend well to their credibility if that similar DCDs are than suggested for mDPS specs.

Quite honestly, if it's wrong for ranged, it's wrong for melee.

DCDs of that nature are more appropriate to healer and tank spanks IMO.

PTs should have DCDs similar to other melee classes, despite their greater ranged options. The addition of a DCD or two like Marauders/Juggs have seems appropriate for PTs.

P.S. While some disagree, I do not consider Force Camouflage a DCD in the same vien as the others. You cannot use it while engaged in combat and maintain it's effects. It is certainly useful as an escape which is has it's own definite value in and of itself, and it useful for mitigating certain environmental damage [lava, fire pit, acid pit, etc] but for use while fighting, it is has no value. In PVP, it's more or less an escape. It's not even a valuable threat drop, as it is only a threat reduction and will not stop a boss you have grabbed agro from from attacking you immediately and not at all should you continue to attack. It is, however, an excellent escape. This is, of course, just a personal opinion based on my experience.
~ I am Grim.


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

KainrycKarr's Avatar


KainrycKarr
07.11.2017 , 04:00 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
snip
Stop. I've played this class for five years on four different servers. all of that is great *on paper* because PT is actually well-designed when taken by itself. Where it falters is when you compare it to the other AC's. Every single other AC has more options to keep itself alive.

The class cannot keep up defensively against the other classes.
Kolto can be burst through by a single player. I do it every day on my PT, to other PT's. 3% heal from shoulder cannon *on hit* from a LEGENDARY utility is absolutely laughable.

1. I didn't include passive for the Mara either. Note I said "Active abilities". Every class has passives. Include the Mara passives too, if you want to make that argument.
2. You cannot kite a jug or mara effectively.
The *only* way you can kite is by preventing yourself from doing the majority of your rotation.
2. You need to be capable of getting within 4m of your target to do your rotation(yes, you need to use retractable blade and rocket punch or you're *********** bad), and everything else besides one ability is 10m. 2m from bracer propellant is absolute trash, and you're a bad PT if you take it. Thermal Det is 30m, so is saber throw.
3. All the utilities to take to buff hydraulic overrides is kind of the damn problem. You have to take THREE utilities from THREE different tiers just to make it as good as Predation is with ONE utility. Powertech utilites are garbage.
4. I never even mentioned force camouflage. Everything I listed was an active CD the player can use to directly mitigate incoming damage.

This is a non-argument. I've got seven (don't play sorc) of the AC's that I've played since 5.0 dropped. PT has far and away the lowest survivability besides possibly Sorc DPS. I will run circles around the best Powertech in a 1v1 with my sniper, merc(lol), jug, or mara. Op and Sin are similar, though require a higher degree of finesse.

You clearly did not read my post very clearly.
Kain'ryk Karr - Level 60 Powertech<Clan Adenn>

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
07.12.2017 , 09:00 AM | #13
Historically PT survivability relied on 2 things:

1) Kiting melee by snare + HO. This is heavily dependent on HO being available and being able to consistently hit out of 10 meter range.
2) Being able to out dps and out survive ranged. Again, HO and higher than 10 meter range where integral to maintain up time.

Going from 1.0 - 3.0 PT (at least AP which was previously pyro) mobility plus range were PT primary mode of game play. It began to break down in 4.0, but 5.0 was the final nail in the coffin. HO lost much effectiveness due to the longer CD. The leap for PT dps means very little, it is nothing more than interrupt against Merc and sorc. This hurt PT suvivability against melee since you will be stuck slug in it out against far more survivable classes. On the other hand, both merc and sniper gained substantial survivability (and mobility for snipers), which made fighting them a futile effort.

Then 5.0 added more survivability to all classes except jug (which was fairly strong, just okay now) and sorc dps. On top of that AP has lost on damage (no point talking about pyro). Not substantially, but enough that it is now surpassed by Fury, Carnage, Rage and Dec in the melee burst department. PT suvivability was nerfed by lower SC heal from 5% to 3% and KO from 40% - 35%.

Nerfing the range and mobility radically changed the class. The DCDs PT dps currently have were designed for ranged, highly mobile, high damage class. None of these adjectives hold true now. Something radical has to change, and honestly, PT skills, damage and suvivability where designed for medium/long range dps. Absent major changes to PT class design or range and mobility nothing will matter.

realleaftea's Avatar


realleaftea
07.12.2017 , 01:12 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Bonzenaattori View Post
Firstly I wouldn't consider Obfuscate a defensive cooldown.
I guess he meant the 75% force/tech damage reduction you can get by choosing the right utility?

Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
You are right, Marauder's certainly have the greater DCDs, no question, but you will note by looking at your own listing of the DCDs, they also don't have any self heals which PT does [making Gyroscopic Alignment Jets more valued for PVP given the amount of CC that get's thrown around]
Sure, let's discuss if the 3% HPs recovered by an upgraded Shoulder Cannon is more a 'heal' than to recover health on every attack that consumes rage via Thirst for Rage.. let's then discuss whether 4x 3% every 180s is more efficicent than 1% every other attack. And let us discuss which class should be considered more a "true DPS" class, the one that has a spec centered around heals or a class that has no heal-centric spec.

Oh and we could then also discuss whether a skill that tries to keep you at 35% HP is more powerful than a skill that absorbs 99% of the damage... and we can then add this to the discussion which class should be considered or is supposed to be a 'glass cannon' or a "true DPS" class. But more about that below.

Quote:
Stabilized Armor, which reduces damage taken from area effects by 30%. Additionally, while stunned, you take 30% less damage from all sources, which is quite nice and very useful in PVP, where both AOE and CC are thrown around in great amounts.
Now it's really silly. First, the 30% stun DR has a 4s duration in most situations. And not every CC is a stun. So it's just as silly as referring to the 100% defense while using Mad Dash every 35s? Second, Marauders can choose the masterful utility Defensive Roll to get a 30% AoE DR as well and unlike the Powertech variant, it's not limited to a single spec.

Quote:
Infrared Sensors - Increases your melee and ranged defense chance by 3% and your stealth detection level by 3.
Ah, now we're down to 3% DR effects to prove a point. Well, let's see... what about up to 6% DR via Frenzied Sabers (Carnage) plus the 2% DR via Force Vigor - both not just against melee/ranged attacks. Or what about Furious Defense (Fury) that grants +10% defense for 6s every 9s. Or what about the constant 3% DR via Shii-Cho Form or the 5% DR via Blood Guard (Annihilation)?

Quote:
"Kiting" option improvements through utilities to go along with the added ranged options are plentiful. Pneumatic Boots increses movement by 15% while in combat which would help with kiting considerably in PVP where you are mostly in "combat" state, and Iron will and Torque Boosters helps some with that as well. Also Overdrive is nice, allowing Hydraulic Overrides to increase movement speed by an additional 45% while active. Battering Ram increasing movement speed by 30% for 6 seconds as well.
Ok, first of all, a 15% speed boost is essentially useless if you wish to kite or counter a kite. There are way better options that slow a target by 30%, 50% or even more. Second, contrary to Hydraulic Override, Predation starts with a 50% speed boost for 10s which can them be improved to 80% as well. Oh and it even grants +10% melee/ranged defense for 10s.

And whereas the Powertech gets a speed boost after a charge, the Marauder is able to leap a second time.

Quote:
Sundered and Susceptible debuffs.
How is this different to a 'beat down' (all three Marauder specs), an 'assailable' (Annihilation), a 'sundered' (carnage) or an 'overwhelmed' (fury) debuff?

Quote:
It also has a considerably strong CC kit with utility choices that can augment it quite a bit. i.e. Mutilating Shards, Enhanced Paralytics, Suppressive Tools, Accelerated Reel, Adaptable Assailant,Reel and Rattle.
Which is the same with: Overwhelm, Interceptor, Subjugation and Maiming Reach.

Quote:
AP PT has a 30' attack, thermal detonator, which far exceeds any ranged attack a Marauder or a Jugg is capable of and it has a spammable basic attack at 30' which means it is literally constantly able to attack at range at all times.
Well, although this statement is actually holds some value, it's still worth pointing out that all the Marauders have Twin-Saber Throw, a 30m line AoE that takes 18s to cool down. So I wouldn't point fingers on Thermal Detonator, a skill that has a delayed effect (which is probably the reason why BioWare kept the 30m range).

Quote:
Melee DPS shouldn't have base DCDs that effect heals as part of their design. Id argue even ranged DPS shouldn't, but, at least currently their is more precedent for that.
Which is just a stale argument.

Ok, let's replace the 8s Kolto Overload that does nothing above 35% HP with a 4~6s Undying Rage that grants 99% DR, just because the former implies a constant 'heal' rather than a complete absorb. Let's then replace the Close-&-Personal passive with either a 3% elemental/internal DR or a Cloak of Pain and let's see how many Powertechs would be complaining.

Personally, I would prefer a 99% DR over a 70% Kolto Overload anytime. But I'm not the one claiming a fluctuating health bar makes a class less a DPS class than taking no damage at all. Oh and please send me a vid where you see the Close-&-Personal heals, because according to you it's something completely different than damage reduction!

To sum it up

Powertechs are in a severe need for a massive defensive buff. First of all, they are missing a powerful DCD that reduces the incoming damage by a high percentual amount in order to be useful both in PvE to survive deadly attacks (orbs, etc.) or in PvP to survive a gank.

Second, they are lacking a second 'hard' DCD that achieves at least 50% damage reduction or that grants a powerful protection against a specific type of damage. This can either be achieved by improving existing passives (like Sonic Defense or Coolant to 50%) or by introducing new ones.

Third, they need a 'lose interest - switch target' skill, i.e. either an escape, a damage reflect or an overly protective skill that makes opponent focusing a different class. This doesn't necessarily have to be a separate skill on it's own, but there has to be a way to handle unfavorable conditions.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
07.12.2017 , 04:07 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by realleaftea View Post
Snip.
I'm not exactly sure why you are stating it like I am saying that can't use another DCD, clearly they can. They should get another DCD. It just shouldn't be one of the merc DCDs.

But please don't say that PT has less heal potential than Marauders, that's just stupid.

A self heal is, you push a button you get health back. If there are other people involved, that means it;s not a self heal. You may get health back, but that is not a self heal.

In order for a mara using thirst to get the kick back it necessitates getting hurt. You are not going to be in melle distance of an opponent and not take damage and you are going to take a shyt load more damage than the kickback, you are not going to see your health bar go up. If a mara gets rooted, and he has some cheese merc blasting him up from 30' away, it's useless, and you cannot get a kick back. But you, as a PT have options that no one else has to be bashing your face in to help you. I am not saying PTs are swell, but they have more self heals.

Same circumstance as about, cept your a PT now. Can you get health back? Yes. Does that mean they dont need another DCD? Of course it doesn't mean that.

But let's be honest here, PTs are not operating like Marauders. You have unreasonable amount of ranged attacks for a melee DPS class. I firmly believe PTs need another good, non-merc like DCD like other melee DPS specs have. I don't think it's unreasonable to say they shouldn't get merc DCDs when we have all seen that problems they have caused and no DPS spec, no matter how garbage it is should get h2fs. Not Mercs, Not Juggs, Not maras, not assys, and not PTs. An extra life is unreasonable, period.

If you want all the same things maras and juggs have, stop acting like a semi ranged class than, because, you cannot tell me having all those 30' attack options doesn't matter. You can call PTs a mDPS class all you like, but, I think they should start acting like it. Whether or not they do that, I still think they need another DCD.

If you want all the marauder dcds which, without a healer will not keep you alive for long in PVP, loss the ability to spam a 30' attack. Loss a potentially 40' attack, lose 15 seconds of 9 attacks at 30' ranged. If you want to keep those things, than no, you shouldn't have all the same DCDs because you are not operating under the same constraints that Marauders and Juggs are.

I think we can agree that PT DPS is not in the least bit an issue, so that aside, so what you are really saying here is, instread of getting a reasonable DCD like Juggs and Maras have, you want a H2F, as a "melee" class, that has more ranged potential than any other mDPS class in the game, and not by a little, by a lot. You want to be able to face tank as a melee DPS

I'll trade Undying Rage for a h2f any day of the week,

4 seconds of 99% DR on a three minute cool down, or a whole second life passively? I'll take the second life, not really though, because it's an unreasonable DCD for a DPS to have. Ill gladly take the merc reflect, because not only does it last longer, it will give me health back and lets face it, with all the idiots running around, it is seldom short of a h2f as well.

The ability to gain health back all on your own, without someone having to be ripping your face off at the same time, that matters in PVP.

You want everything. If they are going to be a mDPS class they shouldn't get all that extra ranged, and if you are not going to do that, that you do not deserve more than one new DCD.

With their insane CC kit [who has a AOE hardstun on a 45 second cooldown , a 4 second stun on electro dart, utility options adding to it with things like Efficient Suit 40' pull that immobilzes you and also allows you to use kolto while stunned and also purges the stun at the same time, shatter slug that is a 75% slow, ,Suppressive Tools which makes Magnetic Blast, Flame Burst and Flame Sweep reduce the movement speed of affected targets by 25% for 3 seconds. Additionally, Neural Dart slows the target by 50% for 6 seconds,and rattle and real which adds a stun effect to some attacks]


Also they Two reflects, and an absorb.

They have 4 offensive cooldowns, they have great group utility and they have more mobility than many other mDPS specs if specced appropriately. They can also skank tank.

They're greater range potential is unsurpassed by other mDPS is relative.

I would suggest a DCD added to PT the likes of which has a Saberward like effect and an escape if necessary.

You have to take everything into account, if you are going to try and deal with class balancing. Merc DCDs make it impossible to do that with regard to DPS specs. A second life is unreasonable for any DPS spec unless other DPS specs get some themselves. If an enemy only needs to kill you once, and you have to kill them twice, you have just created an imbalance and not a small one at that.
~ I am Grim.


"There's a word for Lightside Sith. It's called Jedi."

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
07.13.2017 , 01:50 AM | #16
Wait am I reading this and seeing that people want to be as good as guardian dps DCDs? Haha haha oh wait I'm sorry you're being serious...

The self heal is really more of a half heal generally speaking. Ward we share with maras, granted it is a good DCD. The fake health is next to useless without a pocket healer. Reflect is quite good, yes. But many classes have reflects now, so its hardly unique to us. Need I go on?

I do admit PT is in a spot DCD wise. But seriously wish bigger than being as good as the second or third most trounced on class.

tavrinDosa's Avatar


tavrinDosa
07.13.2017 , 08:56 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Wait am I reading this and seeing that people want to be as good as guardian dps DCDs? Haha haha oh wait I'm sorry you're being serious...

The self heal is really more of a half heal generally speaking. Ward we share with maras, granted it is a good DCD. The fake health is next to useless without a pocket healer. Reflect is quite good, yes. But many classes have reflects now, so its hardly unique to us. Need I go on?

I do admit PT is in a spot DCD wise. But seriously wish bigger than being as good as the second or third most trounced on class.
think before you post. juggs and maras have very balanced dcds for their classes, pt's do not. thats the point of the post, no sorc whining here just facts.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
07.13.2017 , 11:17 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
But let's be honest here, PTs are not operating like Marauders. You have unreasonable amount of ranged attacks for a melee DPS class.
Not necessarily picking on you WayOfTheWarriorx. PT is NOT a melee dps. It is not designed to be a melee dps and it surely does not operate as one. The root of all current PT problems are that someone in BW decided in 4.0 to turn PT to be more melee, without adjusting anything but range. That f**ked everything over. Then BW completely ignored PT in 5.0 till recent pyro buff. The buff it self is not bad, it just won't turn the worst discipline in the game to be competitive. Pyro in particular has significant issue in every area.

In any case, if anything the recent patch of changes indicate that BW does no monitoring and makes changes based on dummy parses and QQ. So, good luck getting anything fixed.

rlpirate's Avatar


rlpirate
07.17.2017 , 03:36 AM | #19
with all the problems dcd's are causing(ie merc) I rather not have a new dcd(for tactics/ap that is) and just double down on the dmg.

-rail shot back to 30m. flame sweep no longer triggers accelerator.
-blood trackers bonus of 3% against blooding targets up to 8-10%. rail shot no longer refreshes bleed.
- particle accelerator can trigger ever 4-5 seconds instead of 6 OR revert it back to how it originally was. with magnetic blast having a 45% chance and rocket punch having a 60% chance to reset the rail shot.

ap/original pyrotech paid for its big spike with low def. give or take i feel thats where we should get back to.

for pyro i would look to improve raw mitigation in flame suit and insulated mats to put pyro armor values(as in armor only) somewhere in between shield tech and ap. so 10-15% to armor and dot protection and 10% to internal and elemental damage. pyro shield being exclusive to pyro also needs to be considered.

this would be my attempt at a quick fix but like others have said the problems are bigger then that. we lost too many moves and the devs dont look like they know where they want to take the class. shoulder cannon in particular needs to be redesigned. i mean how does searing wave(another bad change) NOT spread dots, ffs it doesnt even apply dots.

i been back for about a month and i still cant get over just how much they gave merc.
Swtor needs more pvp

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
07.17.2017 , 04:02 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by tavrinDosa View Post
think before you post. juggs and maras have very balanced dcds for their classes, pt's do not. thats the point of the post, no sorc whining here just facts.
Guardians very balanced DCDs in DPS spec? Sorry as someone who has been regularly playing a vigi guardian in pvp for a while now, we're second or third only to possibly pt/VG and sage/sorc.

Go read the guardIan forums on their experiences in ranked and how bad it sucks. I can tell you stories from 4v4 before I started only running with a guildie healer (that just got nerf hammered thanks ) that are almost terrifying. One of the main reasons people run skanks in pvp is because guardian is an awesome tank class for pvp (indeed a good tank class in general), and a squishy as crap dps one. (The other reason of course is the uselessness of tank gear/stats).

The reason I stopped pvp tanking is because pretty much I got pissy/bitter about them giving guards to dps and making those of us who actually tank even more irrelevent (yes I know I'm exaggerating a wee bit here as a good tank can still make a difference far more than a squishy dps with a guard but still the point stands).

For pve I'm never without a healer even if I am dpsing the heal is a much more guaranteed thing, and the fake health actually works to give the healers some borrowed time. So it's not a problem really. For pvp the fake heal is practically a joke and the self heal isn't far behind. Honestly since I started dpsing in pvp I feel less like a "guardian" and more like a wannabee sentinel without its toys. But the tank "irrelevence" still bugs me more.

I never dps on my vanguard (though he is my second favorite tank class, shadow requires a bit too much micromanaging for my preferences though I can play all the tanks to some degree), but they do seem to be shafted in the DCD department. On the tank side of the house I believe that to be because they seem to have a bit greater passive defensive, but still are the squishiest tank by quite a margin. Also most boss fights are far more prone to dying to spike damage and not sustained damage, thus the rise of the more cooldown based classes.

Hopefully this longer post proves that I do indeed think and have a reason for my opinion even if we disagree.