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Vanguard/PT dead in 5.0?


stoopicus's Avatar


stoopicus
12.12.2016 , 07:54 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Mytrae View Post
Merc is fine, just feel immortal when your bad and you cant stop dps and wait theyr cd fade
75% heal on expire? LOL. Enjoy it until the inevitable nerf.

They should totally strip this from merc and give it to PT. Unlike merc, PT needs it now. I'd play my PT if they did that.

Fardarter's Avatar


Fardarter
12.16.2016 , 03:30 AM | #12
its only a heal on expire if you are an idiot and keep attacking the merc. Stop dps wait a few seconds and kill him.

Miroslaww's Avatar


Miroslaww
12.16.2016 , 09:29 AM | #13
I really do not like vanguards/powertechs being "melee" class now. As a lot of people already mentioned many abilities does not make sense.

Calling artillery support (vanguard) within 10m of myself does not make sense. Using fragmentation projectile at less than 10m does not make any sense (unless you want to commit suicide). "Projectile" from rifle (HIB) having <10m does not make sense. Hand thrown assault plastique having more range than a rifle shot does not make sense. Bashing someone with a rifle doing more damage than the most powerful shot coming from that rifle does not make sense. At least minimum logic should be used when designing class abilities.

It may be balanced, but it is not logical and it is not fun. I am certain it is possible to keep vanguard as a semi-ranged class as it was before and find other means than reducing its range to balance it with other classes.

I also do not understand why vanguard/PT must be a melee class. Why not have a semi-ranged class in the game, which would be able to do reasonable dps at 30m, but would need to come close to reach max dps? There is already a plenty of pure melee classes and pure ranged classes. Semi-ranged would be something unique and add to game diversity. And I do not think such semi-ranged class would be impossible to balance with other classes.

stoopicus's Avatar


stoopicus
12.16.2016 , 08:45 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Fardarter View Post
its only a heal on expire if you are an idiot and keep attacking the merc. Stop dps wait a few seconds and kill him.
You're right that that is the strategy you have to do but that doesn't imply that the skills are balanced for the class.

Additionally, that's only true for one of the two utilities (Trauma Stabilizers on a mando, not sure of the name on a merc.) The other (Adrenal Surge on a 'mando) lasts for up to 60 seconds and heals to 70% when triggered any time in that window.

So you have one that lasts up to a minute and takes the merc back to 70% when it fires, and another that stacks up to 15 5% self-heals. On a ranged DPS class.

Cool story. I like it on my 'mando too. It's still clearly going to get nerfed at some point.

Instead of a nerf they should really move one of those to PT, who needs it now. But they won't.

I'm not calling for a nerf here (like I said, I am having fun with it too), just pointing out that it's pretty clearly going to get whacked by the nerfbat at some point.

Lillythiel's Avatar


Lillythiel
12.17.2016 , 06:55 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Miroslaww View Post
It may be balanced, but it is not logical and it is not fun. I am certain it is possible to keep vanguard as a semi-ranged class as it was before and find other means than reducing its range to balance it with other classes.
BioWare made countless of illogical skills, names and decisions since the beginning.

The latest changes in 5.0 are more about how to define a role in a role-based MMO. They try to design a heavily armored close-quarter combatant (no force user).

BTW: Their focus on roles also resulted in the removal of Phase Walk for Assassins.

So IMO, BioWare made the initial 'mistake' to give Vanguards a rifle and not some sort of shotgun or wrist-cannon (see Handsome Jack). But that's something they can't simply change with a patch.

Quote: Originally Posted by Miroslaww View Post
I also do not understand why vanguard/PT must be a melee class. Why not have a semi-ranged class in the game, which would be able to do reasonable dps at 30m, but would need to come close to reach max dps? There is already a plenty of pure melee classes and pure ranged classes. Semi-ranged would be something unique and add to game diversity. And I do not think such semi-ranged class would be impossible to balance with other classes.
It's a common mistake here on this forum that players often think in two only categories: melee or ranged.

But in fact. there have been three different range categories all along: melee (4m), mid-range (10m) & high-range (30m+). In other words, PTs were never a melee class and BioWare haven't changed them into one.

What BioWare did was to reduce the high-range abilities to mid-range abilities in order to emphasize the differences towards Commandos // Mercenaries and to support the player decision to favor a charge attack (Jet Charge), a taunt (Neural Dart), a Grapple, a Carbonize and a few other things over high-range attacks.

So if you ask PTs to have a decent DPS at 30m range, you're actually requesting an all-around class and therefore a bypass to the typical over-stereotyping in RPGs. (f.e. why aren't Wizards allowed to wear heavy armor). And due to the fact that every other class could ask for similar or unique bypasses as well, the RPG game will end without distinct class roles.

Decidion's Avatar


Decidion
12.18.2016 , 03:56 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Miroslaww View Post
... At least minimum logic should be used...
THAT is in very short supply there lately.....

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
12.18.2016 , 07:31 AM | #17
Ya know, if they were going to force PT/VG as melee ranged tanks, could of atleast given us Techblades and techstaves to use. Least we'd have a melee weapon in melee range instead of bringing a blaster to a saber fight.
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Nortumberland's Avatar


Nortumberland
12.18.2016 , 07:55 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Lillythiel View Post
BioWare made countless of illogical skills, names and decisions since the beginning.

The latest changes in 5.0 are more about how to define a role in a role-based MMO. They try to design a heavily armored close-quarter combatant (no force user).

BTW: Their focus on roles also resulted in the removal of Phase Walk for Assassins.

So IMO, BioWare made the initial 'mistake' to give Vanguards a rifle and not some sort of shotgun or wrist-cannon (see Handsome Jack). But that's something they can't simply change with a patch.


It's a common mistake here on this forum that players often think in two only categories: melee or ranged.

But in fact. there have been three different range categories all along: melee (4m), mid-range (10m) & high-range (30m+). In other words, PTs were never a melee class and BioWare haven't changed them into one.

What BioWare did was to reduce the high-range abilities to mid-range abilities in order to emphasize the differences towards Commandos // Mercenaries and to support the player decision to favor a charge attack (Jet Charge), a taunt (Neural Dart), a Grapple, a Carbonize and a few other things over high-range attacks.

So if you ask PTs to have a decent DPS at 30m range, you're actually requesting an all-around class and therefore a bypass to the typical over-stereotyping in RPGs. (f.e. why aren't Wizards allowed to wear heavy armor). And due to the fact that every other class could ask for similar or unique bypasses as well, the RPG game will end without distinct class roles.
Than they should make 10m abilities visually suit the range requirements at least, I guess. New mortar and slug shot look stupid for CQC. Could made another pulse wave or smth that is common for mid range combat.

Sojorn's Avatar


Sojorn
06.20.2017 , 08:21 AM | #19
A small update to this post.

While gearing up other toons, I have taken a few excess coms and put some gear on my pt/van. With the current imbalance with certain characters dps it has made little difference. Running with a tank/heals I have found that I can work my butt off in a warzone for maybe third place on the boards. On the bright side the tank and heals I run with have had some excellent numbers 6.1 mil prot, and 10k hps lol. I'll let you all guess who the tank was guarding and who the dps were tunneling while the healer did their job.......

The update here is gear doesn't help our situation, our lack of dcd's for a "10 meter" class, which really fury mara and rage jug are in that category, it isn't even close. The "numbers pass" the developers are doing right now will make no difference in "class balance", our only hope here is that when they finally get around to utilities, we actually get something decent, besides something in just about every tier that we have to take for hydraulic overrides which they nerfed the cool down on........ I am eyeing that heal on shield... they can keep the 70 percent kolto, that's a 3 minute cooldown, that heal on shield would be juicy, but it would still only leave us with the shield and "snicker" kolto as dcds. The defense on aoe taunt is useless and should be made back to resist like it was before mara's got it on obfuscate........

I just wanted to come back and update what I had found with the class, which is not much has changed. Hopefully it will get better, or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Anyone else decided to play dps van/pt? What's your thoughts?

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
06.20.2017 , 08:51 AM | #20
I think the dps of Tactics is fine. The survivability seems decent in a 1v1 against most classes, but against a group it's rough: "Kolto overload and run away with hydraulic overrides."
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