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Shadow Tank pvp augments


aleksandar_bf's Avatar


aleksandar_bf
11.30.2012 , 06:10 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Coturnix View Post
On the other hand tank gear giving much more survivability
This ..

Pure tanks in pvp are unappreciated ..

anstalt's Avatar


anstalt
11.30.2012 , 09:03 AM | #12
I guess it really depends on who you're playing.

In normals, its rare to get more than one or two people hitting the healer. So, whilst you're primary job is to keep the healer alive, the healer themselves has to split their healing across multiple targets. so, the quicker you can kill the person beating on the healer, the more time they have free to focus on everyone else. So, in normals, a tank wearing DPS gear is usually more effective because its not often they *need* all that defence.

I imagine in rateds the situation changes. Damage becomes more focused and so the ability to mitigate as much damage as possible, as well as have a nice health buffer, becomes more important.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!

Utorian's Avatar


Utorian
11.30.2012 , 11:13 AM | #13
@Kitru.

Ty For the reply to my post. I totally agree with what you are saying. Thing is my post was a response to the statement made by Wookubus that shield/absorb stats are worthless in PVP. I did this without wanting to go into the math and theory crafting side of the argument.

I would however like to ask you a few things. The examples you gave of increased crit. My question here is how often do all these classes have those buffs active, 15-20s or so. Most of them with a 1.5min + CD. So for the rest of the time that buff is on CD they wont use the attacks? OFC they will and that is when shield/absorb shines. Another thing you mention is that some classes can get to 100%+ crit chance on a melee or ranged attack. I would like to know which classes can achieve this tbh, there is one I can think of but that only applies to one of their abilities (I must admit some of my class knowledge is lacking so I would like to know this so I can have a bit of a better understanding). Thing is though even with all these number and chances they do still come down to a "chance" and if the RNG is with you or not. And I ask this of everyone reading this post. How anoying is it when you have to use a ranged/melee attack as a finisher and its shielded the tank is still alive and lol'ing at you. Theory and numbers are all good indicators of how things should work out, but in practice, most times it doesn't work out.

Also one thing I did mention was about the shadow using melee attacks as there bread and butter. Lets think about that if you don't mind.

Firstly the Infil its biggest hitting attack by far is shadow strike, melee. Next to those is force breach (12s CD talented) and project (6s cd). Now in between those attacks what are they using? That's right SS or CS, if not using snares stuns etc. Now on a damage per force basis CS doesn't look good, but I currently get 1.7k crits per hit. that's potentially 3.4k damage per CS. I tend to use this twice at times while waiting for FB and Project to come of CD. Thats a fair ammount of damage I have done if all things line up and they crit (never happens mind). Add to that Shadow strike and spinning strike, currently getting 7k+ crits with shadow usable every 9s or more if I have the spare force, and 5-6k crits with spinning. That's an awful lot of damage potential while waiting for FB and Project to finish their cd. Thats is why I said the bread and butter of shadows attacks. Also the fact that most of the logs I parse always show those melee attacks at the top of the list for damage done. For the tank, not so much uses apart from DS to get PA procs.

Anyways I seemed to have derailed the thread a bit here so back to shielding and absorb in PvP. As has been said it has it uses, however a decent player will use his abilities to bypass your shield and cause you problems. The way I look at it is that it is an extension of my HP. Allowing me to stay in the fight longer, protect my healer and my team longer and die less. Ya know the role of a tank. Leave DPS to DPS classes. They will always do it better than any tank, hybrid or dps geared.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
11.30.2012 , 01:34 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Utorian View Post
The examples you gave of increased crit. My question here is how often do all these classes have those buffs active, 15-20s or so. Most of them with a 1.5min + CD. So for the rest of the time that buff is on CD they wont use the attacks? OFC they will and that is when shield/absorb shines.
Battle Focus lasts 15 seconds on a 2 min CD (12.5% uptime), but you're not really gonna have an uptime like that because we're talking PvP, where dying and running back to rejoin the fray or breaking combat and rejoining it later are time honored strategies, especially when you're doing it just to get a CD back up. There's a lot more downtime (optional and enforced) to allow for CD regeneration over the course of a fight, which is why survivability CDs are so friggin powerful in PvP (and one of the reasons why people hate Sent/Maras so much because, while they're nominally squishier than a Guardian, they've got an entire *stable* of amazing survivability CDs that, thanks to the short duration of most PvP fights, gives them tremendous advantages because of PvP's predilection towards downtime to provide monumental in-fight uptime).

Saying that an attribute shines when DPS is lightest is damning it by faint praise. If it were actually useful, it would be applicable when you really need to bolster your survivability the most (i.e. when crit rates are incredibly high).

Quote:
Another thing you mention is that some classes can get to 100%+ crit chance on a melee or ranged attack.
Tactics VGs get guaranteed crits with HiB thanks to combat tactics and Vigilance Guardians get 60% bonus crit for Dispatch (and Blade Storm) out of Force Rush (combined with basic crit rate and class buffs, provides a ~95% chance to crit). Even so, "guaranteed crits" aren't the only situation you have to consider when dealing with crit pushing shield off of the table because players are entirely capable of getting 40-50% crit chances thanks to stats and buffs. At that point, at best, you're going to get 50-60% shield chance, which is ludicrously easy to get to if you've got KW.

On this topic, I'm actually curious if anyone has tried playing around with using the PvE Stalker set bonus in PvE (using the PvE shells with PvP armorings). The 2 piece might not be all that great (it's not like either Balance or Infiltration should be staying in combat consistently long enough to actually run out of Force if they're not being idiots), but 15% improved crit chance with CS and DS, especially for Balance (thanks to 50% additional crit damage out of DS), could do a lot of damage. You'd have the weigh the benefits against the additional charge and shorter CD on Force Potency, but it would be interesting to try out.

Quote:
Firstly the Infil its biggest hitting attack by far is shadow strike, melee. Next to those is force breach (12s CD talented) and project (6s cd).
Shadow Strike is only the hardest hitting attack when Infiltration Tactics is up (functionally enforcing a 12 sec CD), you're not fighting an opponent in heavy armor, and you discount bonus damage from crits (though whether this matters depends a lot on your actual crit chance since melee attacks for Shadows should benefit from the 9% higher crit chance from Force Synergy, though Force Potency could be seen as a balancing Factor since it all but guarantees a crit with the Force attacks twice every 2 minutes, or thrice every 105 seconds with the 4 pc set bonus). Since Project and FB both benefit from 50% bonus damage from crits (and Project benefits from 30% additional damage thanks to CD stacks as well as the potential for 50% more base damage out of Upheaval and FB benefits from ~12-18% additional damage when used on CD thanks to Exit Strategy) whereas Shadow Strike only benefits from 30%, it's actually more appropriate to say that Shadow Strike hits roughly as hard as Force Breach, on the same CD (substantially lighter if used without that buff).

Quote:
Now in between those attacks what are they using?
If we're measuring Shadow Strike against Force Breach, it's better to weigh CS against Project, specifically, each double use of CS against the single use of Project (though with CS stacks no longer being consumed by Project use, there's actually some case for using Project on CS regardless of whether you have Circling Shadows stacks, especially in burst damage scenarios; each use of CS only reduces the cost of Project by 11 Force, so, if you can actually find something to use that does more damage than CS for a similar cost, you're better off simply not using CS and using the other attack immediately and using Project on CD).

Now, concerning CS and Project's damage, CS is relatively simple. With both attacks per GCD factored in, CS is going to deal roughly 85% of the base damage that Project deals (ignoring crit contributions and Upheaval procs). Factor in the addtional 22.5% damage that Upheaval provides (brings it to 70%) and factor in crit contributions, remembering that melee attacks get 9% higher crit chance but Project gets 50% more crit damage, and the difference between the two arrives at CS dealing roughly 65% of the damage of Project. Double that such that CS gets twice the contribution and Project deals roughly 130% of the damage that Project deals, assuming you use 2 CSs for every 1 Project (which, in a burst DPS scenario, isn't really going to be guaranteed).

Now, furthermore, because we're talking about melee/ranged v. Force/Tech, it's important to remember that Saber Strike is sometimes goes to take precedence over other attacks. In general, because of how Infiltration plays, this should pretty much always be CS (everything else should be used on CD; CS, as the only attack without a CD, isn't really going to get much ground). As such, CS's contributions get brought comparatively lower since they're having to be averaged out with Saber Strike's.

Also, Shadow Technique should be factored in as a Force/Tech damage contributor (which, thanks to the number of attacks made per GCD on average, provides ~75-80 DPS), which weighs contributions further in favor of F/T (at top tier gear levels, that will approach 8-9% of total damage dealt).

So, factoring in Shadow Technique (assuming pure burst DPS), your used attacks comprise 91% of your total damage. Breaking that down roughly equally between M/R and F/T attacks (Shadow Strike and Force Breach roughly equate to each other on the same use table, CS and Project as well, factoring in SS reducing CS's effectiveness due to replacement, though this probably gives a little leeway to M/R for the purposes of burst DPS, especially since we're not counting Spinning Strike, but, once again, you get into CS replacement rather than outright addition), and you get ~46% M/R damage and 54% F/T. Even if you favor M/R even more thanks to the leeway previously provided, it's, at best, a break even between F/T and M/R.

At that point, with a break even between F/T and M/R, I still stand by my assertion that Shield isn't really effective against Infiltration Shadows. With ~50% of your damage completely ignoring Shield, you're getting pretty bad comparative returns.

Quote:
For the tank, not so much uses apart from DS to get PA procs.
You're also discounting Balance as well as the Kinetic Hybrid, none of which get much out of their melee attacks. The only spec that can even make the remotest case for being heavily melee oriented is Infiltration and, even then, there's some question about it. So, unless you think that Infiltration is the *only* Shadow PvP spec, you're pretty wrong about melee being bread and butter for *all* Shadows.

Quote:
The way I look at it is that it is an extension of my HP. Allowing me to stay in the fight longer, protect my healer and my team longer and die less. Ya know the role of a tank. Leave DPS to DPS classes. They will always do it better than any tank, hybrid or dps geared.
PvP is less about role specialization than PvE is. It's for this exact reason that hybrid specs work in PvP but are pretty much persona non grata in PvE. It's all about maximizing your DPS *and* survivability, which is why the Shadow hybrid tank spec that runs in pure DPS gear is so friggin' effective: it gets excellent DR with the amazing tank CDs that Shadows get (providing excellent survivability) and stacks DPS stats to make the Project autocrits and DS spamming hit like comparative trucks. Tank stats on gear just aren't an efficient use of itemization; they don't apply to enough of the incoming attacks and damage to do so.
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Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
11.30.2012 , 01:56 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Utorian View Post
GS/Sniper - cull, ambush, series of shots and takedown. All big hitters, all ranged attacks. Yes these classes also have tech damage but their biggests hits come from ranged. The ability to reduce most of their damage wins out any day.
My Lethality Sniper does a large percentage of their damage as tech. The damage text is yellow. You are incorrect.
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Coturnix's Avatar


Coturnix
11.30.2012 , 02:29 PM | #16
Ok ill read this, when im sober. Its too much after bottle of wine

aleksandar_bf's Avatar


aleksandar_bf
12.01.2012 , 06:16 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
PvP is less about role specialization than PvE is.
Hm,hm i don t know how u play wz .. but when i play whit my guild roles matters .. Dps are there to do damage nothing else as healers are there to heal .. Me as tank i carry the ball, i plant in voidstar i stay at nod distracting imps and trying to guard healer .. Can i do all that as some dps/tank hybrid maybe .. Would i be able to hold nod/door/ball vs 2-3 imps for just that extra 20 sec .. Nop ..

Im the one whit always highest objective ..