1. Make defense and shield/absorb work against ALL damage (kinetic, energy, internal, and elemental). Simply put, if your defense rating is at 30%, your shield rating is at 50%, and your absorption rating is at 50%, then you will defend (i.e. avoid) 30% of ALL incoming attacks. Of the 70% of attacks that you don’t defend, you will shield 50% of those attacks, and when you do shield such an attack you absorb 50% of the damage.

2. Make defense and shield/absorb work against critical hits and autocrits. A shielded critical hit would still do more damage to a tank than a shielded normal hit would for any given ability.

3. Give us more options in terms of how we allocate our mitigation stats. In particular, make mods with shield or absorb instead of defense. Likewise, make enhancements where you can stack shield and absorb together instead of defense. This was actually possible prior to 4.0. It would be nice to have these kinds of options with augments and stims as well.

4. Lock the guard ability to the tanking disciplines. (DPS powertechs/assassins/juggernauts should still be able to taunt though)

5. In PVP, change the base damage reduction of taunt to 15% (down from 30%), and the base damage redirection of guard to 25% (down from 50%). Make it to where you have to wear full tank gear with mitigation stats to bring the damage reduction of taunt up to 30% and the damage redirection of guard up to 50%. Note that I am not saying that you should have to have maxed out 248 gear to get up to the 30%/50%. The only requirement should be that each piece of gear is tank gear with mitigation stats. Bolster can make up the difference to get up to 30%/50%.

1. Make defense and shield/absorb work against ALL damage (kinetic, energy, internal, and elemental). Simply put, if your defense rating is at 30%, your shield rating is at 50%, and your absorption rating is at 50%, then you will defend (i.e. avoid) 30% of ALL incoming attacks. Of the 70% of attacks that you don’t defend, you will shield 50% of those attacks, and when you do shield such an attack you absorb 50% of the damage.

the problem with this suggestion is that it would require rebalancing all of the pve content in the game to compensate for the increased tank survivability. short version: there is no way bioware is going to be willing to put in that kind of effort for something they don't consider a problem.

2. Make defense and shield/absorb work against critical hits and autocrits. A shielded critical hit would still do more damage to a tank than a shielded normal hit would for any given ability.

this is a good suggestion and, imo, they way it should have been since launch.

3. Give us more options in terms of how we allocate our mitigation stats. In particular, make mods with shield or absorb instead of defense. Likewise, make enhancements where you can stack shield and absorb together instead of defense. This was actually possible prior to 4.0. It would be nice to have these kinds of options with augments and stims as well.

here again, you are getting into the need to rebalance the entirety of pve content. in addition, they previously changed mods away from the system you described to the all defense system that we have now, so this change would require them to admit they were wrong before. to my knowledge, bioware never does that.

4. Lock the guard ability to the tanking disciplines. (DPS powertechs/assassins/juggernauts should still be able to taunt though)

i agree with this completely as well.

5. In PVP, change the base damage reduction of taunt to 15% (down from 30%), and the base damage redirection of guard to 25% (down from 50%). Make it to where you have to wear full tank gear with mitigation stats to bring the damage reduction of taunt up to 30% and the damage redirection of guard up to 50%. Note that I am not saying that you should have to have maxed out 248 gear to get up to the 30%/50%. The only requirement should be that each piece of gear is tank gear with mitigation stats. Bolster can make up the difference to get up to 30%/50%.

this is a pretty good suggestion, but it comes with some difficulty in implementation. it would require checks, not just on each piece of gear, but on the individual mods in that gear. then it would have to crunch some numbers to derive up to the total value. essentially, it would be a new version of bolster, but just for tanks. i am guessing that this is more work than bioware would be willing to put into it.

1. Make defense and shield/absorb work against ALL damage (kinetic, energy, internal, and elemental). Simply put, if your defense rating is at 30%, your shield rating is at 50%, and your absorption rating is at 50%, then you will defend (i.e. avoid) 30% of ALL incoming attacks. Of the 70% of attacks that you don’t defend, you will shield 50% of those attacks, and when you do shield such an attack you absorb 50% of the damage.

 

2. Make defense and shield/absorb work against critical hits and autocrits. A shielded critical hit would still do more damage to a tank than a shielded normal hit would for any given ability.

 

3. Give us more options in terms of how we allocate our mitigation stats. In particular, make mods with shield or absorb instead of defense. Likewise, make enhancements where you can stack shield and absorb together instead of defense. This was actually possible prior to 4.0. It would be nice to have these kinds of options with augments and stims as well.

 

4. Lock the guard ability to the tanking disciplines. (DPS powertechs/assassins/juggernauts should still be able to taunt though)

 

5. In PVP, change the base damage reduction of taunt to 15% (down from 30%), and the base damage redirection of guard to 25% (down from 50%). Make it to where you have to wear full tank gear with mitigation stats to bring the damage reduction of taunt up to 30% and the damage redirection of guard up to 50%. Note that I am not saying that you should have to have maxed out 248 gear to get up to the 30%/50%. The only requirement should be that each piece of gear is tank gear with mitigation stats. Bolster can make up the difference to get up to 30%/50%.

I can't speak to the numbers, but in terms of the general idea, I think it's a great idea. Having tank specs doing more DPS than some DPS specs while still being as tough as a tank is utterly ridiculous, and totally defies trinity. They're not the only one of course, but, no tank spec should do even equal DPS to the worst DPS spec, it should be less.

Time to let tanks be tanks again and let them do what they do best. I'm sure there's a ton of people who regret not being to play their tank main in PVP due to lack of effectiveness in their chosen trade.

It's a real good idea.

I'm sure there's a ton of people who regret not being to play their tank main in PVP due to lack of effectiveness in their chosen trade.

<raises hand> <cries>

I can't speak to the numbers, but in terms of the general idea, I think it's a great idea. Having tank specs doing more DPS than some DPS specs while still being as tough as a tank is utterly ridiculous, and totally defies trinity. They're not the only one of course, but, no tank spec should do even equal DPS to the worst DPS spec, it should be less.

 

Time to let tanks be tanks again and let them do what they do best. I'm sure there's a ton of people who regret not being to play their tank main in PVP due to lack of effectiveness in their chosen trade.

 

It's a real good idea.

The way I see it, and what my changes attempt to address, is that the issues with "tanking" in PVP are really two-sided. On the one hand, a tank that goes full-mitigation gear does not really have any more survivability than a tank in DPS gear. That's not a minor problem, it's a huge glaring issue, because it doesn't allow tanks to actually be tanks (i.e. very high survivability, very low damage output). This is because with the way things currently work, in PVP the only two stats that consistently help you to survive are damage resistance (DR) and endurance. So for example, a lone tank that isn't being healed and is being focused by 3-4 DPS will last maybe, at most, a couple GCD's longer than a lone DPS being focused in the same situation would. That shouldn't be the case, but it is, because mitigation stats don't work properly at all in PVP. And even if you max out on endurance, you only have roughly about 15k more health than most DPS do. So in short, there is no way to make a true tank that can take a beating and absorb lots of damage in PVP in this game.

And this leads to the other issue with tanking in PVP. Because it's not actually possible to play a real tank in PVP, what people do instead is spec tank and then wear DPS gear. Some max out on endurance and then put everything else into DPS stats, and some just go full out on DPS stats and don't even prioritize endurance. The survivability of "DPS tanks" or skank tanks in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem is that they are able to do almost as much damage as a DPS spec, and they are simultaneously just as effective at keeping a guarded healer alive, because again they have just as much survivability as a "pure" tank with mitigation stats. In fact they probably actually have a greater chance of surviving compared to a "pure" tank, because a skank tank can potentially dish out enough DPS to kill their "regular" DPS opponent. The problem really with skank tanks is that they have access to the exact same 30% damage redirection on taunt, the exact same 50% damage redirection on guard, they do almost as much damage as a DPS, and they have a bit more survivability than a DPS because of the boosts to damage resistance (DR) that you get just for choosing the tank discipline. And since mitigation stats give basically 0 benefit in PVP, this is the mess we have had for years.

TLDR: The issues with tanking in PVP are 1) tank survivability is much lower than it should be (due to mitigation stats not working properly) and 2) tank damage is much higher than it should be (due to wearing DPS gear). The suggestions I made in my original post attempt to fix both issues simultaneously.

I can't speak to the numbers, but in terms of the general idea, I think it's a great idea. Having tank specs doing more DPS than some DPS specs while still being as tough as a tank is utterly ridiculous, and totally defies trinity.

This is because skank tanks live longer, contributing to a better overall dps gain in pvp matches.

DPS juggs per dummy parses obliterate skank tanks, (a skank tank will never top 7k without reflect abuse in PvE, as far as dummy about 5.0k-6.0 on avg)

BW needs to address DPS juggs survival. It should be on par with a maras survivability which surprisingly is a lot better then a DPS jugg.

I have to disagree with these proposals. As a tank main - dps happens in cycles (8-15 seconds for the fastest auto crit burst cycles), plan for that.

Use your DCDs accordingly, and watch for the opportune times to pop them and learn how others burst works. Stack HP. Learn how to DPS even though you are a tank. You can be infuriating too. With what you're talking about I would probably never die vs even 4 of the best dps on my server if I was healed.

to fix tanks in pvp they need to make crits shield able, They need to make guard tried to tank discipline, they need to make Generators for shields tied to tank discipline.

This will fix the shank tanks and fact most tanks dont even have much shield/abosrb in pvp if anyway, while they at it they can make all base heals skills only usable on heal disciplines if you DPS you should not have Heal base skills.

Nither will happen

Pvp tanking should be able control and assisting with damage to put pressure on the enemy team.

Tanks are actually in a solid spot, the last thing we need is dying brick walls that swinging nerf bats at each other...

P.S. Also disagree with Janglor, having played vs Poison on his OP I doubt solid tanks/healers (esp. when grouped with dps that have broken dcds) are going to struggle with the sorc nerf .

I have to disagree with these proposals. As a tank main - dps happens in cycles (8-15 seconds for the fastest auto crit burst cycles), plan for that.

 

Use your DCDs accordingly, and watch for the opportune times to pop them and learn how others burst works. Stack HP. Learn how to DPS even though you are a tank. You can be infuriating too. With what you're talking about I would probably never die vs even 4 of the best dps on my server if I was healed.

You can't balance tanks around DCD's; mitigation stats need to play a pivotal role in tank survivability. This is also why powertech tanks are so far behind juggernaut tanks and assassin tanks in the survivability department -- because they lack the very powerful set of DCD's that those two classes have. Powertech tanks are designed such that they have the highest passive mitigation of the three tanks, but they also have the least number of DCD's (and energy shield is really the only good DCD PT tanks have for PVP, the others are quite lackluster). And since mitigation stats are essentially meaningless in PVP, this is exactly why powertech tank survivability is a joke in PVP.

I agree that you should have to use DCD's to maximize your effectiveness, regardless of what role you are playing. But mitigation stats need to play a significant role in tank survivability, just as DPS stats play a significant role in the damage that you are able to output as a DPS spec.

And I definitely disagree that these changes would make tanks "almost impossible" to kill. Harder to kill, yes, but certainly possible. After all, you can only get your defense, shield, and absorb so high. In fact the 30%/50%/50% that I used as an example in my original post is close to a realistic amount of defense/shield/absorb that you can have, depending on how exactly you allocate your stats. And it's also important to keep in mind that "pure" tanks in full mitigation gear hit like a wet noodle, so it would be balanced around the idea that tanks should have very high survivability and very low damage output. In other words, tanks would actually be tanks.

3. Give us more options in terms of how we allocate our mitigation stats. In particular, make mods with shield or absorb instead of defense. Likewise, make enhancements where you can stack shield and absorb together instead of defense. This was actually possible prior to 4.0. It would be nice to have these kinds of options with augments and stims as well.

this.

prior 4.0 we had lot of choice for mods, including shield and absorb.

if you want to "maximise" your tank stat you have to use augment slots...so you lose health , it's ridiculous and this help "skanking"

I think these changes are more likely to increase stalemates than lead to better PVP balance. IMO DCD tanking makes more sense in PVP, which focuses on burst mechanics instead of sustained output. Once DCDs are blown, bye-bye tank, as it should be. The better solution IMO would be to give PTs better DCDs so they perform consistent with juggs and sins.

I agree that PT tanks need better DCD's, but that's not only because of PVP, but also because of PVE/raids as well (even in PVE/raids PT tanks do not perform as well as the other tanks for this reason). But I completely disagree that tank survivability should only come down to DCD's. That's like saying a DPS's DPS should all come down to offensive cooldowns, and DPS stats on gear should make absolutely no difference in the damage that you output.

How to make

This is a five years old game. Stop dreaming about it...

This is because skank tanks live longer, contributing to a better overall dps gain in pvp matches.

 

DPS juggs per dummy parses obliterate skank tanks, (a skank tank will never top 7k without reflect abuse in PvE, as far as dummy about 5.0k-6.0 on avg)

 

BW needs to address DPS juggs survival. It should be on par with a maras survivability which surprisingly is a lot better then a DPS jugg.

Where the Skank Guardian is amazing is not just the survivability but that damn Guardian Slash... It can hit for upwards of 20k on up to 8 targets if the Guardian is geared in DPS focused gear. They are an AOE burst class when geared properly, in a bandbox like Hypergate, they can to massive numbers, and easily out DPS many of the weaker DPS classes.

As far as DPS Jugg/guardian survival, it's fine. The problem is more with other classes getting so many survivability buffs. Sniper/Merc/Marauder are supposed to be glass cannon's. Higher DPS, weaker defensives. But right now those three classes have tank level survivability with high levels of CC and massive damage.

I agree that PT tanks need better DCD's, but that's not only because of PVP, but also because of PVE/raids as well (even in PVE/raids PT tanks do not perform as well as the other tanks for this reason). But I completely disagree that tank survivability should only come down to DCD's. That's like saying a DPS's DPS should all come down to offensive cooldowns, and DPS stats on gear should make absolutely no difference in the damage that you output.

Most hard-hitting abilities are on cool-down, and whether someone has saved the top of their rotation for the right timing so you can burst a target down often spells the difference between victory and defeat. I think that's a great mechanic for PVP because it requires smart play. I would not change that dynamic if it were up to me.

You can't balance tanks around DCD's; mitigation stats need to play a pivotal role in tank survivability. This is also why powertech tanks are so far behind juggernaut tanks and assassin tanks in the survivability department -- because they lack the very powerful set of DCD's that those two classes have. Powertech tanks are designed such that they have the highest passive mitigation of the three tanks, but they also have the least number of DCD's (and energy shield is really the only good DCD PT tanks have for PVP, the others are quite lackluster). And since mitigation stats are essentially meaningless in PVP, this is exactly why powertech tank survivability is a joke in PVP.

 

I agree that you should have to use DCD's to maximize your effectiveness, regardless of what role you are playing. But mitigation stats need to play a significant role in tank survivability, just as DPS stats play a significant role in the damage that you are able to output as a DPS spec.

 

And I definitely disagree that these changes would make tanks "almost impossible" to kill. Harder to kill, yes, but certainly possible. After all, you can only get your defense, shield, and absorb so high. In fact the 30%/50%/50% that I used as an example in my original post is close to a realistic amount of defense/shield/absorb that you can have, depending on how exactly you allocate your stats. And it's also important to keep in mind that "pure" tanks in full mitigation gear hit like a wet noodle, so it would be balanced around the idea that tanks should have very high survivability and very low damage output. In other words, tanks would actually be tanks.

You need to ask the best PT tank you see how to play the spec. All three specs are very equally balanced right now but PTs do not have any unique weakness whereas others do unless played carefully.

I definitely do not want to log in one day and feel like I'm playing a brokenly OP class as a tank main. Mitigation exists as HP and as an offset for filler damage while DCDs counter burst. There is a very good reason some mods and enhancements have the most HP for tanks. The longer your base damage reduction let's you outlast damage the easier it is for you to continue surviving.