That Rage/fury has by far the worst single target dps of all 18 dps speccs, can we have back decent smash dmg please?

 

Meta has changed a lot since the old days, it became a lot more difficult to hit multiple targets and as of today there are speccs with far more AOE dmg capabilitie as smash ever had. Vigilance does more aoe than smash ever did, not to mention hatred or madness.

 

 

 

Source:

Rank - DPS - vs Average (6630) DPS --- Imperial || Republic

01 - 6917 - +4.34% --- Sniper - Engineering || Gunslinger - Saboteur

02 - 6909 - +4.22% --- Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman

03 - 6808 - +2.69% --- Assassin - Deception || Shadow - Infiltration

04 - 6785 - +2.35% --- Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics

05 - 6728 - +1.48% --- Mercenary - Innovative Ordinance || Commando - Assault Specialist

06 - 6705 - +1.15% --- Sniper - Marksman || Gunslinger - Sharpshooter

07 - 6700 - +1.06% --- Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat

08 - 6619 - -0.16% --- Mercenary - Arsenal || Commando - Gunnery

09 - 6603 - -0.41% --- Sniper - Virulence || Gunslinger - Dirty Fighting

10 - 6597 - -0.49% --- Operative - Lethality || Scoundrel - Ruffian

11 - 6587 - -0.64% --- Assassin - Hatred || Shadow - Serenity

12 - 6581 - -0.73% --- Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech

13 - 6559 - -1.06% --- Sorcerer - Madness || Sage - Balance

14 - 6504 - -1.89% --- Juggernaut - Vengeance || Guardian - Vigilance

15 - 6498 - -1.98% --- Sorcerer - Lightning || Sage - Telekinetics

16 - 6463 - -2.51% --- Operative - Concealment || Scoundrel - Scrapper

17 - 6409 - -3.33% --- Juggernaut - Rage || Guardian - Focus

18 - 6359 - -4.09% --- Marauder - Fury || Sentinel - Concentration

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

 

 

EDIT:

 

I know very well those numbers cannot be translated to pvp 1:1.

But remember when they nerfed pyro and buffed AP PT? its been because of charts like this. This is the only metrics BW cares about

Edited November 5, 2015 by Qwurdilu

Dummy DPS != PvP Viability.

 

I would say Rage/Fury is the BEST Knight PVP Spec atm by a margin because it can actually burst healers down. Vigilance imo is a fluff damage spec in pvp. Annihilation is better because its dots can actually provide pressure ( getting about 5-7k in per pulse pressure with all 3 dots running with crits. ). Carnage also has decent burst but suffers from what it always did, sooo easy to control and break if you cc them during gore windows.

it can actually burst healers down.

 

You dont want to confuse killing bads in regstars with actual competetive pvp.

The burst is okay, but the pressure is miles away from beeing viable for teamranked.

 

Edit:

Also, just because its the best out of three garbage speccs, doesnt mean its viable in any way. Marauder has no viable specc for teamranked atm

Edited November 4, 2015 by Qwurdilu

That Rage/fury has by far the worst single target dps of all 18 dps speccs, can we have back decent smash dmg please?

 

Meta has changed a lot since the old days, it became a lot more difficult to hit multiple targets and as of today there are speccs with far more AOE dmg capabilitie as smash ever had. Vigilance does more aoe than smash ever did, not to mention hatred or madness.

 

Source:

Rank - DPS - vs Average (6630) DPS --- Imperial || Republic

01 - 6917 - +4.34% --- Sniper - Engineering || Gunslinger - Saboteur

02 - 6909 - +4.22% --- Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman

03 - 6808 - +2.69% --- Assassin - Deception || Shadow - Infiltration

04 - 6785 - +2.35% --- Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics

05 - 6728 - +1.48% --- Mercenary - Innovative Ordinance || Commando - Assault Specialist

06 - 6705 - +1.15% --- Sniper - Marksman || Gunslinger - Sharpshooter

07 - 6700 - +1.06% --- Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat

08 - 6619 - -0.16% --- Mercenary - Arsenal || Commando - Gunnery

09 - 6603 - -0.41% --- Sniper - Virulence || Gunslinger - Dirty Fighting

10 - 6597 - -0.49% --- Operative - Lethality || Scoundrel - Ruffian

11 - 6587 - -0.64% --- Assassin - Hatred || Shadow - Serenity

12 - 6581 - -0.73% --- Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech

13 - 6559 - -1.06% --- Sorcerer - Madness || Sage - Balance

14 - 6504 - -1.89% --- Juggernaut - Vengeance || Guardian - Vigilance

15 - 6498 - -1.98% --- Sorcerer - Lightning || Sage - Telekinetics

16 - 6463 - -2.51% --- Operative - Concealment || Scoundrel - Scrapper

17 - 6409 - -3.33% --- Juggernaut - Rage || Guardian - Focus

18 - 6359 - -4.09% --- Marauder - Fury || Sentinel - Concentration

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

 

Come on man. This is damage parse from a dummy? If that's where it comes from, this is not one bit indicative of what the classes do in warzones.

 

Class damage is highly situational in a warzone, and the enemies do not stand in front of them not using cooldowns and taking all their hits.

 

I am going to edit this, because I can't honestly give a strong opinion particularly if it is ranked you are basing viability on.

 

Not fair it's too early and people are still adjusting gears, and learning the nuances of their classes to really judge how juggs fair especially in ranked.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Lhancelot

Rage Jugs will get murdered in ranked, they will be dead before they get any burst off because they will get focused, burned by Dots and stunned locked.....

 

rage sucks for ranked

Come on man. This is damage parse from a dummy? If that's where it comes from, this is not one bit indicative of what the classes do in warzones.

 

Class damage is highly situational in a warzone, and the enemies do not stand in front of them not using cooldowns and taking all their hits.

 

I am going to edit this, because I can't honestly give a strong opinion particularly if it is ranked you are basing viability on.

 

Not fair it's too early and people are still adjusting gears, and learning the nuances of their classes to really judge how juggs fair especially in ranked.

 

You really need to get to 65 and play with and against some good teams before you comment. Fury/Rage just lacks the sustained damage to effectively pressure healers and healed targets. It works just fine for bursting down regstars who are receiving now healing, but really suffers badly when facing a coordinated team, particularly with a tank healer combo. If they simply gave similar CC immunity across all three marauder spec's it would be fine as all of the better marauders would simply switch to Carnage or maybe even annihilation. And honestly if you are taking a jugg in rage spec into a ranked environment you are just making it hard on yourself. Vengeance has nearly as good burst, better defensive capabilities, and much better sustained damage.

I am going to edit this, because I can't honestly give a strong opinion particularly if it is ranked you are basing viability on..

 

I have the experience of thousands of ranked games myself and im in close touch to the juggernaut having to most #3 titles in grp ranked, you can trust me that the dmg output of fury/rage is just not viable for grp ranked, no matter what.

Meta is all about pressure, and said speccs have none.

 

Regstars are a whole other story, if your skill is high enough you`ll allways slaughter bads and top charts, no matter the specc.

There goes any hope for lightning devs hate us

Oh god yes, I miss smash,

goblin lackey is a guildie of mine and i have a lot of respect for his work, but you have to accept it for what it is. trying to twist it to make a point for your fav class is probably not going to work.

 

first, those aren't parses, they are theorycrafted numbers. this is what a class will do with a perfect rotation and no interrupts or pauses. it DOES NOT take into account how difficult a rotation is or how well it tolerates interruption. for instance, the sniper virulence rotation includes a third cull on one set of dots before refresh because that yields the best results on paper. it does not take into account that that only works against real bosses about half the time. the rest of the time i have to move or switch target, etc. for pvp...forget about it. i will never get a third cull off from one dot. so real game number are going to be significantly lower than theory. but there is nothing anywhere in that calculation that tells how much lower, because it is too random.

 

second, there is much more to an op or pvp match than the dps number. i cannot count the number of matches i have had when everybody on my team did less damage than the enemy, but won the match. similarly it doesn't even surprise me to see dps die to the aoe that spawns under them because they were staring at their ability bar instead of the fight. the dps who does only 4K, but pays attention, is 1 million times more valuable to the group than the idiot who does 6k for the first minute, but then dies to the circle he didn't see spawn under him.

 

third, this is sustained damage over time. it tells you NOTHING about the burst potential of a spec. again i will use virulence as an example. for all of 3.X, virulence was the best spec for pve because of it's sustained damage, but burst was somewhere between bad and nonexistent. so people would switch to marksman for the fights where burst was an important factor. and it was better for that fight, even though virulence did "more" damage.

 

tl,dr: somebody has to be last. why not fury?

Edited November 4, 2015 by sumquy

That Rage/fury has by far the worst single target dps of all 18 dps speccs, can we have back decent smash dmg please?

 

Meta has changed a lot since the old days, it became a lot more difficult to hit multiple targets and as of today there are speccs with far more AOE dmg capabilitie as smash ever had. Vigilance does more aoe than smash ever did, not to mention hatred or madness.

 

Source:

Rank - DPS - vs Average (6630) DPS --- Imperial || Republic

05 - 6728 - +1.48% --- Mercenary - Innovative Ordinance || Commando - Assault Specialist

17 - 6409 - -3.33% --- Juggernaut - Rage || Guardian - Focus

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

 

Ah I see that your strong use of sauce states very clearly that Merc Innovative ordinance is 5th best damage class and stomps all over the weakling Rage Jugg at 17th.

 

I bet those Juggs are terrified when they see such fearsome DPS in their warzone.

 

You clearly know your sauces and have served up a solid plate of *** IS THIS.

second, there is much more to an op or pvp match than the dps number. i cannot count the number of matches i have had when everybody on my team did less damage than the enemy, but won the match.

 

Can we please stop to confuse regs with ranked?

I believe classes should be balanced around group ranked, and thus my post refers to this game mode.

 

Hardswitch is dead since 3.0 and doing more dps is a relevant key for victory there. It`s all about pressure and rage/fury does the least.

Yes, having good interrupts and ccs are also a cornerstone of victory, but its not like Rage/fury excells at this compared to other classes.

Ah I see that your strong use of sauce states very clearly that Merc Innovative ordinance is 5th best damage class and stomps all over the weakling Rage Jugg at 17th.

 

I bet those Juggs are terrified when they see such fearsome DPS in their warzone.

 

You clearly know your sauces and have served up a solid plate of *** IS THIS.

 

Dunno what you`re talking about, but IO does pretty well in grp ranked vs rage. Its excellent to counter snipers while rage counters...uhm...nothing

Edited November 4, 2015 by Qwurdilu

Dunno what you`re talking about, but IO does pretty well in grp ranked vs rage. Its excellent to counter snipers while rage counters...uhm...nothing

 

Does it really.

 

You have not said anything of the sort.

 

What you've said is that this big list of theoretical numbers is a reason for something. Not one thing about reality, a flat statement that the big list gives your argument some weight.

 

And it doesn't. Not to anyone who knows how the numbers were made or how realistic they are or how well it translates into PVP.

Does it really.

 

You have not said anything of the sort.

 

What you've said is that this big list of theoretical numbers is a reason for something. Not one thing about reality, a flat statement that the big list gives your argument some weight.

 

And it doesn't. Not to anyone who knows how the numbers were made or how realistic they are or how well it translates into PVP.

 

Im pragmatic enough to know that bioware doenst care about ranked mechanics or meta, so the only argument that matters for them to change anything is: "here, they do too less dmg according to metrics"

 

Everyone related to grp ranked knows that rage/fury isnt viable, and its been explained a dozen times

goblin lackey is a guildie of mine and i have a lot of respect for his work, but you have to accept it for what it is. trying to twist it to make a point for your fav class is probably not going to work.

 

first, those aren't parses, they are theorycrafted numbers. this is what a class will do with a perfect rotation and no interrupts or pauses. it DOES NOT take into account how difficult a rotation is or how well it tolerates interruption. for instance, the sniper virulence rotation includes a third cull on one set of dots before refresh because that yields the best results on paper. it does not take into account that that only works against real bosses about half the time. the rest of the time i have to move or switch target, etc. for pvp...forget about it. i will never get a third cull off from one dot. so real game number are going to be significantly lower than theory. but there is nothing anywhere in that calculation that tells how much lower, because it is too random.

 

second, there is much more to an op or pvp match than the dps number. i cannot count the number of matches i have had when everybody on my team did less damage than the enemy, but won the match. similarly it doesn't even surprise me to see dps die to the aoe that spawns under them because they were staring at their ability bar instead of the fight. the dps who does only 4K, but pays attention, is 1 million times more valuable to the group than the idiot who does 6k for the first minute, but then dies to the circle he didn't see spawn under him.

 

third, this is sustained damage over time. it tells you NOTHING about the burst potential of a spec. again i will use virulence as an example. for all of 3.X, virulence was the best spec for pve because of it's sustained damage, but burst was somewhere between bad and nonexistent. so people would switch to marksman for the fights where burst was an important factor. and it was better for that fight, even though virulence did "more" damage.

 

tl,dr: somebody has to be last. why not fury?

 

So does that mean that lightning being the hardest spec to get off a full rotation in pvp. Now makes it by far the worst spec in the game?

So does that mean that lightning being the hardest spec to get off a full rotation in pvp. Now makes it by far the worst spec in the game?

 

maybe. my point was that these numbers are a guide to ultimate potential. they will bear only a passing resemblance to what we see in game.

 

Can we please stop to confuse regs with ranked?

I believe classes should be balanced around group ranked, and thus my post refers to this game mode.

 

Hardswitch is dead since 3.0 and doing more dps is a relevant key for victory there. It`s all about pressure and rage/fury does the least.

Yes, having good interrupts and ccs are also a cornerstone of victory, but its not like Rage/fury excells at this compared to other classes.

 

okay, but that just makes point 3 even more critical. bant's theory numbers tell you nothing about burst ability. so trying to use these numbers to say that a spec is underperforming in ranked pvp where burst is king is a bit disingenuous.

 

you also completely ignored the most important point: somebody has to be last. why not fury?

Rage Jugs will get murdered in ranked, they will be dead before they get any burst off because they will get focused, burned by Dots and stunned locked.....

 

rage sucks for ranked

 

Actually peoples sit on rage even in regs. Coz close combat, can't kite or LOS, squshy.

Few bad examples. http://i.imgur.com/vWgboiI.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YJ1QwTz.jpg http://i.imgur.com/d2DgsJa.jpg

There may or may not be a case for some balance changes. But that list shows *nothing* that applies to PvP (one need only look at average arena damage output by class to see that), and only taints your entire argument with irrelevant material.

Rage Jugs will get murdered in ranked, they will be dead before they get any burst off because they will get focused, burned by Dots and stunned locked.....

 

rage sucks for ranked

 

frankly if you're not bringing AP or MM you're gimping yourself.

 

Also I'm not a big fan of Veng anymore. I don't feel like it's pressure is all that strong anymore and I've been playing Veng since 2.0 and when JM was actually full of good players was considered one of the better Juggs. I feel that with the nerfing of Ravage, Veng Sustained isn't that good. I haven't noticed Veng dots being dangerous, maybe a total of 3-4k on crits totat? Which means most of your pressure is gonna come from slam since ravage took the nerf bat to the face.

 

And yes Rage Jug could use some defenses against DOTs, or heck maybe something out of the box, like increased damage while dots are on you.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Anishor

And yes Rage Jug could use some defenses against DOTs, or heck maybe something out of the box, like increased damage while dots are on you.

 

Rage need 1 more DCD. Its my personal opinion.

Rage need 1 more DCD. Its my personal opinion.

 

Would prob be end up attached to the aoe taunt.

Let's bring in the arguement of 5% variance between class ? How close R we to balance

Let's bring in the arguement of 5% variance between class ? How close R we to balance

 

6917-6359=558 then (6917+6359)/2=6638 so 558/6638=.084X100=8.4%

6917-6359=558 then (6917+6359)/2=6638 so 558/6638=.084X100=8.4%

 

That's pretty good tweaks need to be made of course. So is sab sniper the best pvp spec in game in practice? Or is that dps number realistically impossible to achieve?