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Our characters 'feel weak'

Krimlord's Avatar


Krimlord
03.01.2019 , 06:55 AM | #1
We graduated our story the top of our chain. Everyone bowing to us.

In KOTFE and KOTET we were made to be shown as 'weak' compared to the Emperor's children and only defeated them because of help and getting force power from Satele/Marr to amp us up. So back in the start of KOTFE we were already weak seeming....... ever since after the original story we've kinda felt.... lame as a main character, TBH. Sure, we killed the Emperor, but that's largely because of that "kneel before the dragon of zakuul" trick, and we had help against Vaylin. Even Senya tossed us aside when we were about to fight Vaylin in KOTFE, tossed us like a weak rag doll and fought evenly when Vaylin..... WE were ragdolled by both children. On and on and on. Senya seems stronger at first.

Also I know they are the emperor's children so of course they'd be strong as heck. But here's something also.

The Sith Warrior defeated Darth Baras who was sucking power from a dark side entity to amp himself, and intimidated the dark council (aside from Marr I'm sure, but he didn't intervene) and Ravage refusing to stand in his path. Bowing to them, if they knew he was the "emperor's wrath" then technically the Warrior should be at least around equal to them. I don't think the Sith Warrior is SUPER strong or anything like some have, but it doesn't make sense if he was still way weaker than the dark council. Also fought the VOICE of the emperor with Sel freaking Makor who took over and was supposedly of similar power to the Emperor's voice. Or at least I thought so. I can't recall for SURE and I don't have the time to look it up as of right now.

The Sith Inqusitor as an apprentice took out a champion Jedi Master back when he was an apprentice, darth skotia despite being damaged was still crazy since he was FRESHLY an apprentice then killing a Darth, later he also overpowered Darth Zash as an apprentice FRESHLY turned LORD. Blew up and took out Thanaton a bit later with ghosts amping him, and then later *****slapped Thanaton's lightning away casually in their final battle when he was raging, and wasn't even using his full ghost powers. Maybe not using them at all yet(No glowing eyes when he uses them) as I believe his normal power was used that power because of the Mother Machine fixing his body so his body could handle more power more easily. And then ONCE his eyes glowed he was using the stacked up Power to totally embarrass Thanaton. But even before the ghosts power he was already stronger than a Jedi master that many sith couldn't defeat let alone his master probably at the same time.

Sorry I keep saying he, mine is male.

Consolar and Knight are less of a focus but the Consular took out the Emperor's main child, and the Knight took out the "TRUE voice" of the Emperor. Meaning also super strong..... Meaning the Knight, Consular, Inqusiitor, Warrior have all dealt with Emperor related powers and even the Emperor himself in some way. In some cases his legit voice that the council members likely were afraid of....

So while I get that the Emperor's children are freaks of nature, so are the Player characters and it's sad to see them more and more get weaker and weaker seeming while supposedly being stronger.

I will say with the inquisitor though since his ghosts aren't mentioned then canonically the only way is that they are gone and thus are not a factor anymore. Because he'd be too OP and not seem weak anymore. Maybe actually on Par... an actual threat. I mean the whole KOTFE AND KOTET they only call you "Father!" reffering to the ONLY threat in you which is not you at all, but the OP being in you because you are considered no concern to them. It's rediculous and funny how the whole time you're attacking them and they're attacking you, and you are calling them Arcann and Vaylin while they ignore you and focus on their Father only , brushing you under the rug like a mild inconvenience. Then you magically take them out later on. Like "See?? Stop saying your Father! I'm a threat too!"

NOW we are back in the Empire..... and Republic. Which is cool. But.... Malgus has returned and his model is bigger than it use to be. Taller. Same with this other new Jedi being super tall on Ossus. And I imagine, as usual, they're super strong, maybe on par with us? We just killed the Emperor, even failing that, we "fought" the emperor, "fought" his children inside our mind. And now Darth Malgus as much as a 7 foot dinosaur of a sith as he is, is uh..... A serious threat to us?

Are we not compatible to the emperor now? Or failing them, the Emperor's children let's just say.... More realistically. Since the Emperor in your head was also weakened. But we beat Vaylin and Arcann, potentially even both at the same time, in that mind zone, but Malgus seems to be in their league if not a bit stronger now. Hm?? Now I'm not so sure that makes any sense, see?? The power scaling and everything is just confusing and it's largely, i feel, to make us still not feel so strong.

I mean even as a "Leader" in KOTFE and KOTET you don't make any Major decisions really xD Alot of times you're just a frontline fighter and that's it, and you listen to people, and rarely come up with ideas and when you DO they're all "WOAH this is why you're our leader" but really you're just a figurehead not really a leader. You inspire people, but you don't technically give orders much.

JJKerryee's Avatar


JJKerryee
03.01.2019 , 08:16 AM | #2
I don't agree with this at all. Although I agree KOTFE and KOTET had many flaws, IMHO our characters were handled pretty well.

It would make no sense for our characters to be super powerful since the beginning because it would make for a boring plot and useless villains. Zakuul teaches its force-users that there is no difference between light and dark, which means they "master" both sides. As a Jedi or Sith you most likely only mastered one of them, which obviously puts you at a disadvantage. So, your character has to grow, learn and become stronger, so that you eventually can be more powerful than the villains, which is exactly what happened to our characters and it makes sense. By the end of the story you are super powerful, you defeated Izax and the Emperor after all. Playing a character who is way too OP screaming "UNLIMITED POWAAAA" all the time doesn't make for a compelling story like it has been demonstrated in the past. Also, stating that defeating Valkorion was any less amazing, simply because you use that sentence is completely ridiculous. You just defeated the most powerful being in the galaxy, which makes YOU the most powerful being in the galaxy, according to common sense.

About the lack of important choices, I don't agree with it either.

I've seen a lot of people using this argument. That our characters are nothing but frontline fighters. This is simply untrue. A leader doesn't just hide and chooses what to do. He/She fights in the front lines, makes difficult decisions and inspires everyone. As the Commander, you have a band of people who would follow you to the end of the galaxy and you do all these things. You choose who lives and who dies (you can basically kill anyone you want), you choose what happens to the most powerful weapon in the galaxy first with the Eternal Throne and then on Iokath, you choose which faction you want to rule the galaxy on Ossus and yet these choices aren't important enough for you?
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SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
03.01.2019 , 10:19 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
Also I know they are the emperor's children so of course they'd be strong as heck. But here's something also.
They are the Emperor's children, not the Emperor's Children (note capitalisation). More on this below.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
The Sith Warrior defeated Darth Baras who was sucking power from a dark side entity to amp himself,
At that point, he wasn't sucking the Entity's power any more, not after what the player does on Corellia.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
and intimidated the dark council (aside from Marr I'm sure, but he didn't intervene) and Ravage refusing to stand in his path. Bowing to them, if they knew he was the "emperor's wrath" then technically the Warrior should be at least around equal to them. I don't think the Sith Warrior is SUPER strong or anything like some have, but it doesn't make sense if he was still way weaker than the dark council. Also fought the VOICE of the emperor with Sel freaking Makor who took over and was supposedly of similar power to the Emperor's voice. Or at least I thought so. I can't recall for SURE and I don't have the time to look it up as of right now.
As far as I understand it, the Emperor's Voice doesn't have access to the Emperor's full power.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
The Sith Inqusitor as an apprentice took out a champion Jedi Master back when he was an apprentice, darth skotia despite being damaged was still crazy since he was FRESHLY an apprentice then killing a Darth,
Skotia wasn't any kind of Jedi, master or not, champion or not.

And of course the circumstances were unusual. When the Inquisitor takes Skotia down, she exploits non-Force weaknesses that Zash has helped her to find (the cybernetics thing and the Trandoshan tablet), thus helping to level the playing-field.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
Consolar and Knight are less of a focus but the Consular took out the Emperor's main child, and the Knight took out the "TRUE voice" of the Emperor. Meaning also super strong..... Meaning the Knight, Consular, Inqusiitor, Warrior have all dealt with Emperor related powers and even the Emperor himself in some way. In some cases his legit voice that the council members likely were afraid of....

So while I get that the Emperor's children are freaks of nature, so are the Player characters and it's sad to see them more and more get weaker and weaker seeming while supposedly being stronger.
Back to that difference between the Emperor's children and the Emperor's Children...

Arcann, Thexan, and Vaylin were his actual (via Valkorion's body, evidently) children, and inherited some measure of his powers (not all of them, as noted at the end of KotET Chapter VIII). They are the Emperor's children (small "c").

The Emperor's Children (large "C") in the JK and JC stories were, I guess, "infused" with some notional measure of his power, but they weren't actual children in any biological sense, and that power also wasn't really all that much. In particular, they were not in any way "avatars" of the Emperor. (Look up the original meaning of that word - it's a concept in Hindu theology, roughly equivalent to an incarnation in roughly human form of a god, having some fraction of the god's power.)
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
I will say with the inquisitor though since his ghosts aren't mentioned then canonically
Nothing in this game is canonical in the Star Wars lore.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
the only way is that they are gone and thus are not a factor anymore. Because he'd be too OP and not seem weak anymore.
The reason is more practical: if the game's story writers ignore the ghosts, they don't have to write a special bit of *story* to explain how they've DEMed(1) them out of existence for just the Inquisitors that kept them.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
Maybe actually on Par... an actual threat. I mean the whole KOTFE AND KOTET they only call you "Father!"
They aren't talking to *you* at that point. Their intent is to communicate (through you) with Valkorion.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
reffering to the ONLY threat in you which is not you at all, but the OP being in you because you are considered no concern to them. It's rediculous and funny how the whole time you're attacking them and they're attacking you, and you are calling them Arcann and Vaylin while they ignore you and focus on their Father only , brushing you under the rug like a mild inconvenience.
On their scale, you *are* a minor inconvenience. You're an ordinary (perhaps Force-using) mortal. Their only concern is Valkorion, who very much is *not* an ordinary mortal.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
Then you magically take them out later on. Like "See?? Stop saying your Father! I'm a threat too!"

NOW we are back in the Empire..... and Republic. Which is cool. But.... Malgus has returned and his model is bigger than it use to be. Taller. Same with this other new Jedi being super tall on Ossus. And I imagine, as usual, they're super strong, maybe on par with us?
Nah, they're just big people. Yoda is powerful, but you wouldn't in any physical sense call him "big".
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
We just killed the Emperor, even failing that, we "fought" the emperor, "fought" his children inside our mind. And now Darth Malgus as much as a 7 foot dinosaur of a sith as he is, is uh..... A serious threat to us?

Are we not compatible to the emperor now?
Comparable, not compatible, and no, we're not. The story of KotFE/ET left us in an exceptional situation at the end of Chapter IX of KotET.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
Or failing them, the Emperor's children let's just say.... More realistically. Since the Emperor in your head was also weakened. But we beat Vaylin and Arcann, potentially even both at the same time, in that mind zone, but Malgus seems to be in their league if not a bit stronger now. Hm??
Can't say I'd agree with that. He is definitely diminished compared to when he fought us in False Emperor.
Quote: Originally Posted by Krimlord View Post
Now I'm not so sure that makes any sense, see?? The power scaling and everything is just confusing and it's largely, i feel, to make us still not feel so strong.

I mean even as a "Leader" in KOTFE and KOTET you don't make any Major decisions really xD Alot of times you're just a frontline fighter and that's it, and you listen to people, and rarely come up with ideas and when you DO they're all "WOAH this is why you're our leader" but really you're just a figurehead not really a leader. You inspire people, but you don't technically give orders much.
It used to be, in our world, that kings and great generals would take part in battles, and fight (some of) the enemy themselves. Does that make them less kingly or generalish (sorry for the made-up word)? (At the time, no, definitely not. It was *expected* that kings would fight their own battles.)

All that said, there is a *lot* of power-related inconsistency in the storytelling, but that occurs in most MMORPGs, although some of them hide it better than this.

(1) Hit them with the Deux Ex Machina(2) hammer to make them disappear.

(2) From ancient Greek theatre, although the phrase is Latin, meaning "a god out of the machine"(3), where gods would be introduced by "stage machinery" to make some story point happen when there wasn't any obvious reason that it would happen, and for narrative purposes, it has to happen.

(3) Or, perhaps, if you'll excuse the pun, "A God From The Machine". Maybe it's called "Tyth"?
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FlameYOL's Avatar


FlameYOL
03.01.2019 , 12:32 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by JJKerryee View Post
I don't agree with this at all. Although I agree KOTFE and KOTET had many flaws, IMHO our characters were handled pretty well.

It would make no sense for our characters to be super powerful since the beginning because it would make for a boring plot and useless villains. Zakuul teaches its force-users that there is no difference between light and dark, which means they "master" both sides. As a Jedi or Sith you most likely only mastered one of them, which obviously puts you at a disadvantage. So, your character has to grow, learn and become stronger, so that you eventually can be more powerful than the villains, which is exactly what happened to our characters and it makes sense. By the end of the story you are super powerful, you defeated Izax and the Emperor after all. Playing a character who is way too OP screaming "UNLIMITED POWAAAA" all the time doesn't make for a compelling story like it has been demonstrated in the past. Also, stating that defeating Valkorion was any less amazing, simply because you use that sentence is completely ridiculous. You just defeated the most powerful being in the galaxy, which makes YOU the most powerful being in the galaxy, according to common sense.

About the lack of important choices, I don't agree with it either.

I've seen a lot of people using this argument. That our characters are nothing but frontline fighters. This is simply untrue. A leader doesn't just hide and chooses what to do. He/She fights in the front lines, makes difficult decisions and inspires everyone. As the Commander, you have a band of people who would follow you to the end of the galaxy and you do all these things. You choose who lives and who dies (you can basically kill anyone you want), you choose what happens to the most powerful weapon in the galaxy first with the Eternal Throne and then on Iokath, you choose which faction you want to rule the galaxy on Ossus and yet these choices aren't important enough for you?
Couldn't have said it better myself, another angle to consider where KOTFE is concerned is... you just left Carbonite and that was clearly affecting you, I wouldn't be surprised if took a long time for you to fully heal from the after-effects of Carbonite Poisoning. And it's not just that our characters are weak, but more so that Vaylin and Arcann are even more OP due to inheriting a bit of Tenebrae's raw power... as Qui-Gon said "There is always a bigger fish."
A man can have anything...If he's willing to sacrifice everything

ejadavidson's Avatar


ejadavidson
03.01.2019 , 05:30 PM | #5
Just to add a tiny bit... I played a BH through the story. A very ordinary kinda guy, talented yes since he got into the "Great Hunt", but pretty much a nobody, and definitely not a force user. I felt that he didn't defeat his enemies because he was stronger, but because he was more clever. That came across very strongly to me.

The "Bow to the Dragon of Zakuul" at the end of KotET, my character at that point realized that in his head, he could make the rules, and upon realizing this, he manipulated the fight.

I realize with an MMO there's only so much they can do with an interactive story. Still, it was pretty darned epic to see my BH turn into a galactic alliance leader. The end when he looked at that throne it was difficult to take the lightside option, but I knew that's what he would do.
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Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
03.01.2019 , 06:28 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by JJKerryee View Post
Zakuul teaches its force-users that there is no difference between light and dark, which means they "master" both sides. As a Jedi or Sith you most likely only mastered one of them, which obviously puts you at a disadvantage.
The events of the story don't really bear this out. The Knights of Zakuul are definitely not stronger than the Jedi or Sith; victory in the war came from the Eternal Fleet. Hell, Lana says outright that the Knights don't learn how to properly channel their anger, which is how she can win that fight.