Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
07.18.2019 , 05:08 AM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
No, other players aren't my concern.
Then what are we discussing here? If we're looking at a single player experience, there is no winning. P2W implies that some players will have something that others won't have if they're not paying, in a very general sense. However, other players are required to "win".

Quote:
Let's cover some basics: The optimal game experience is the one sold to you. Developers will never intentionally sell anything that reduces engagement, and their goal is to recurringly monetize us.

If a game monetizes its gearing and progression with microtransactions, the non-MTX experience is definitionally sabotaged, to incentivize those transactions. Period.

My problem is paying $155.88 a year, year after year, and having my experience degraded by MTX-fed gearing and progression. It's pay-to-win, and 6.0 is doubling-down with its need for two simultaneous consumables to un-nerf the game.

And no, the degree to which MTX-fed progression and gearing can be circumvented isn't meaningful, because it's a moral problem, regardless of degree. If it's 'not so bad' now, we're clearly being groomed for more abuse when the lights go out. None of us deserve to get FIFA'd in the dark.

I won't even get started on selling gambling products.

Business ethics matter. We all deserve better.
(woah, the divine, golden glow of truth)
We've been over this already. These items that you're so concerned about can be purchased in game, with in game currency, and, currently, are given away in crates that are earned by simply playing the game at max level. The closest thing to P2W in this game is something you already do, paying a sub to play. It doesn't matter if you achieve something in 5 days using dropped/purchased with in game currency boosts, or buy boosts from the CM, a purchase on the CM is not required to achieve the ultimate goal.

In Rappelz, you can enchant gear. After a specific level, which varies by tiers of gear based on Character level, the gear can break if the enchant fails. The only means to prevent this is only available through the CS, and the only way to repair said gear if it breaks, is the CS. That is P2W. Getting a rank in RXP is not, especially given that the new system is going to go off your equipped gear, instead of RXP ranks. I will not be changing the definition of terms to suit your narrative.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Phazonfreak's Avatar


Phazonfreak
07.18.2019 , 06:15 AM | #92
Out of all the things you could legitimately critizise EA/BioWare for, and there are many things in the past and especially during 4.0/5.0, this alleged double-monetization-progression-P2W-undermining-morals-scheme argument is absolutely ridiculous.

As a subscriber I pay 155.88 Euros a year and I have personal and legacy cargo holds on all my characters that are jam-packed with xp and cxp boosts. I can't keep up with actually using them all and have a serious problem with all them command tokens piling up in the command stashes of my characters, because I don't do crafting and don't need them to buy more boosts.
I got the boosts purely by playing the game and never bought any of them on the Cartel Market. It is actually so "bad" how much of them are thrown into your face every step of the way, that it made having too little space in cargo holds a far more pressing issue than any scheme you stipulate regarding progression monetization.

Unless any of the new statted gear and tactical items we get in 6.0 will become a direct Cartel Market purchase or part of any cartel crate drops your argument does not hold any water at all.

MacCleoud's Avatar


MacCleoud
07.18.2019 , 11:27 AM | #93
@FlatTax

Pretty impressed by your trolling ability. The ONLY post you have ever created and you have 10 pages. Your trolling is good, very good. I would even say it boarders on exceptional.

Edit: removed "OR replied to" from the sentence. Last time I looked he had not replied to anything except his own troll thread.

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
07.18.2019 , 04:18 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Then what are we discussing here? If we're looking at a single player experience, there is no winning. P2W implies that some players will have something that others won't have if they're not paying, in a very general sense. However, other players are required to "win".
Single player games can absolutely be pay-to-win. All pay-to-win requires is advantage-producing microtransactions.

And indeed, we've been over the rest before.

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
07.18.2019 , 04:22 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by MacCleoud View Post
@FlatTax

Pretty impressed by your trolling ability. The ONLY post you have ever created and you have 10 pages. Your trolling is good, very good. I would even say it boarders on exceptional.

Edit: removed "OR replied to" from the sentence. Last time I looked he had not replied to anything except his own troll thread.
I'm pretty sure I'm the one being trolled. Who's *really,* as a matter of principle, ok with gambling products and advantage-producing microtransactions?

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
07.18.2019 , 06:44 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
I'm pretty sure I'm the one being trolled. Who's *really,* as a matter of principle, ok with gambling products and advantage-producing microtransactions?
I am with you in regards to gambling products IE: loot boxes, but I think most have countered your argument about "advantage producing" since there is absolutely no advantage to gear, and you are given so many max exp boosts in game that it is not even necessary to buy them on the CM.

I have so many in my legacy box, just from playing that I will easily be able to get all my toons to 75 when the time comes. It just seems to me that you expect everything included with your sub price, and there should be absolutely no cartel market (which is BS because that CM allows people to make easy credits if they use their 500cc right).
Just Click It for Free Stuff I need the CC
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hj4n32

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
07.18.2019 , 07:50 PM | #97
Alrighty, most of you guys seem to be saying it's not a problem, because the microtransactions are totally circumventable.

It still matters.

Please go back and look at what I said about bright lines, and grooming. Those boosts are in the cash shop for a reason.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
07.20.2019 , 09:42 PM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
Alrighty, most of you guys seem to be saying it's not a problem, because the microtransactions are totally circumventable.

It still matters.

Please go back and look at what I said about bright lines, and grooming. Those boosts are in the cash shop for a reason.
They are indeed, for the same reason that speeders, cosmetic items, and SH decorations are: Someone will buy them. Do you picket businesses when they have sales too? I laid out what P2W means in a previous post, and nothing you're describing is P2W. Everything is available in game, either as quest rewards, from opening crates that come from just playing the game, or from an NPC. Meaning that you have no reason to use the CS, let alone being forced to use the CS if you want to get them. Of course, your tirade is buried in "I pay a sub, and everything that comes out ever for the game should be free".
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
07.21.2019 , 09:11 AM | #99
OPs arguments are really nothing more than idiosyncratic gripes with free market philosophy. There is nothing normative in the OPs concerns (e.g. there is no normative basis for concluding what a sub should include, how much it should cost, etc.). Seeing as the complaints are entirely personal and unique, it's hard to place his arguments into any broader debate context.

Take an automobile. One buys a new car in 2019, certain this are expected: it starts, it drives, it's powered by an energy source that's obtainable, it has airbags, it meets government standards, etc.. The the sound system, sports package, sunroof, navigation, etc. are all optional. And even the price itself depends on the class, market, supply/demand, etc. If dealers charged for airbags (they do, but of course that's baked in already which is another problem with OP's arguments) or for a steering wheel, or the ignition, then there would be an issue.

The OPs argument goes along the lines of when I buy a car, I expect all luxury, non-essential items to be included at no additional charge. OP rejects the idea that a dealer might "entice" a customer to upgrade the sound system by including a functional, but uninspiring, system in the base model, and charging a premium for the higher quality version. This is a fine position to have, but it's not one that merits any debate. It's too idiosyncratic, and it fails to account for a number of additional factors (e.g. how some customers may be content with the base model and be unwilling to pay even a dime more for an upgrade, costs of goods sold, etc.)....

Thepyrethatburns's Avatar


Thepyrethatburns
07.21.2019 , 03:42 PM | #100
I just don't see why they have to scrap CXP. I get that they're trying to slim down a few things and remove currencies to cut down on their current bloat of currencies. (Alliance Recon Data as an example.) Still, I can't see myself being arsed to care about Renown. With CXP, there is some sense of progression along with a small prize per level. This works for people like me who do not have the time to play/grind all day. Yes, my highest character is in the mid-100s but I wasn't really trying to get to 300 as fast as I can.

Renown......Having something that will regularly reset back to 0 kills any motivation that I have to care. This is good for me as it means that I will only ever touch the Rakghoul event 4 more times and the Gree once more. Helping me cut down on my faffing about isn't a bad thing for me. However, I don't see how it helps those events when I won't even have the smallest motivator to swing by and see if anybody needs help with heroics. (Yes, I'm full up on rep.)

I feel like they should just leave CXP there alongside the Renown system but it is what it is. I can't really get too worked up over the demise of the CXP system anymore than I got worked up over the demise of the crystal currency. All it means is that I'm trying to burn my boosts and command tokens before end of August as well as my UCs.
Avoid the horrors of a bitraider install/reinstall.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=673714