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Saboteur/Engineering Guide 3.0+

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
Saboteur/Engineering Guide 3.0+

Camelpockets's Avatar


Camelpockets
02.12.2015 , 04:36 PM | #1
The Camel's Saboteur/Engineering Guide!


(Last Update: 3.2.2)

Testing/Statistics
Spoiler


Known Oddities/Bugs
Spoiler


Introduction
Spoiler


What is Saboteur/Engineering?
Spoiler


Gearing *Finalized*
Spoiler


Preferred PvE Utilities
Spoiler

The Tree:
Spoiler


All da Abilities:
Spoiler


Offensive Cooldowns:
Spoiler

Defensive Cooldowns:
Spoiler

Other CC/Utility Abilities:
Spoiler

Mini Reminders (Read this before reading the rotation guides):
Spoiler

Gunslinger’s Rotation:
Spoiler


Sniper’s Rotation:
Spoiler

Raid Videos / Stream
Spoiler

Acknowledgements:
Spoiler

Please leave me comments, questions, concerns, rants, hate mails, and whatever else you feel is appropriate. I hope you enjoyed reading!

A final Note: By no means is this the "Perfect Saboteur/Engineering Guide" This will become a little more perfected over time for sure, however, there will be flaws, such as those that people have already stated. Please, do post feedback about what you think about the guide overall, and perhaps any additional tips or tricks that I missed or possibly even other things that I don't know.
"We have winnowed all futures. The cull endures. It is optimal. It is necessary." - Shiva
Camels the Revanchist
The Pockets Legacy - Begeren Colony & Shadowlands

Camelpockets's Avatar


Camelpockets
02.12.2015 , 04:37 PM | #2
Reserved slot.
"We have winnowed all futures. The cull endures. It is optimal. It is necessary." - Shiva
Camels the Revanchist
The Pockets Legacy - Begeren Colony & Shadowlands

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
02.13.2015 , 06:37 AM | #3
Good job on the guide overall. You may want to put some space between your paragraphs, though, as the information is hard to read with all those blocks of text. Besides that, there are a few issues I want to point out.

Quote: Originally Posted by Camelpockets View Post
Hightail It/Covered Escape: Rolls 18 meters in the desired direction. While rolling, your chance to dodge incoming attacks is increased by 100%. This is wonderful for resisting huge damage spikes or ignoring mechanics, such as Doom on NiM Dread Council. Also handy if you need to get from point A to B quickly.
It might be good to mention that the roll causes the player to move in the direction where the camera is pointing and not where the player is pointing. Also, I think you're talking about Doom on NiM Dread Guards since that ability is not present in the Dread Council fight.

Quote: Originally Posted by Camelpockets View Post
Gunslinger’s Rotation:
A typical rotation (after the opener) would follow something like this:
Shock Charge – Sabotage – Hightail It – Incendiary Grenade – Speed Shot
Vital Shot – Thermal Grenade – Sabotage Charge – Incendiary Grenade – Speed Shot
Then repeat.
I don't really understand why you split up Shock Charge and Vital Shot into different 9 second rotations instead of including them together on the same one (aka Shock Charge -- Vital Shot). Personally, that's what I do in general as keeping the DoTs aligned is easier to keep track of (especially on fights like Sword Squadron where your target goes immune) and as far as I've seen, Vital Shot does about the same DPS as Sabotage.


Quote: Originally Posted by Camelpockets View Post
AoE Rotation:
Now, after experimenting on certain boss fights with this spec, handling an AoE rotation while managing energy is very difficult. However, I believe that in combination with some single target DPS, it is very possible. Now if we are talking add pulls, this is a very simple priority list to follow:
1. XS Freighter (Pre-Cast)
2. Incendiary Grenade
3. Scatter Bombs
4. Sweeping Gunfire
You can play around with whatever you feel like on trash pulls to get used to it, but if we want to talk about bosses such as Underlurker or Torque, then the explanation will not be as easy. Underlurker you can get away a little bit with energy strain because of the 6 second down time behind the rocks. (If above 60% energy, that 30 energy that you get back.) But Torque is very tricky because you can only do single target on the boss, and there are no times to regen energy (other than clicking the panel.) So I’ve hypothesized a possible strategy that could do both single target and a bigger chunk of AoE damage. But I currently do not have a lot of experience doing it (other than the obnoxious trash pulls of HM ToS).
I think it would be better with a priority list. It will be a little odd, but bear with me.
1. XS Freighter (3+ targets)
2. Incendiary Grenade (Regardless of targets)
3. Sabotage Charge (Main Target)
4. Sweeping Gunfire (with the main target being hit by the attack)
5. Shock Charge (Main Target)
6. Sabotage
7. Free Thermal Grenade (Preferably main target)
8. Speed Shot (Energy Regen, again, main target)
Note: After #4, the rest are used to maintain energy.
This should only be done while taking the 25% damage boost from sweeping gunfire. If you aren’t then use the two main AoE’s and continue the single target rotation. Since Saboteur doesn’t benefit from extra energy regen in cover (a Sharpshooter passive), Sweeping Gunfire is very energy strenuous to use, and should only be used if some target with contingency charges is being hit by it, Illegal mods is up, or you have Cool Head ready to go. Otherwise, try to follow this list, or make one up yourself. I’m very interested to see how people handle Underlurker and Torque with Saboteur.
AoE rotations vary a lot based on how much AoE your team puts out and the strategy you use in each boss fight. If you were the only one using AoE the adds on Torque/Underlurker, you can get significantly higher DPS than if you have other people helping (even though that'd be obviously better for the team). On Torque/Underlurker, any adds should die in less than 15 seconds unless something has gone horribly wrong. Rolling for DPS on both fights is not something I do because it requires me to take extra damage to do so and one of the big reasons I just run Sharpshooter nowadays for them. Without the extra energy management for rolling, the adds pretty much have to die in around 9 seconds to make it worth it since you can't afford to throw out an extra Incendiary Grenade with how much it costs. There are other specific issues I'll list below.

On Torque, you can only reach 3 tampering devices with your bigger AoEs (Sweeping Gunfire + Flyby) and 2 with Incendiary Grenade. As far as I can tell, getting into position to roll means you have to stand on the consoles, which puts you in a terrible spot for avoiding damage. Since you still need to kill the 1 add on that side and then another 4 on the opposite when the repair droid is done, the energy cost is painful. You are only going to have Cool Head to get that energy on every other set of tampering device spawns as well since we don't have resets on it anymore.

One of the more important reasons to run Sharpshooter on that fight is that you really want to kill the Shoots Laser add ASAP so unless you have Sabotage Charge + Speed Shot available at that time, you aren't going to be that much help in finishing it quickly. This is especially true since our target switching in 3.0 is not as good as it used to be in Saboteur with Sabotage requiring Shock Charge to be on the target first.

For Underlurker, every group I've played with has had at least 2-3 people mainly AoEing the two adds closer to the exit (east side) so they die pretty quickly. However, due to the movement of the boss, I find I have to delay Incendiary Grenade a lot and we don't have good movement so it's tough to get into range to roll. Every team I've played with has the entire team group up on the west side when getting behind rocks, which is farthest from the adds. One possible solution to this is to take the utility that gives a speed boost upon using Hunker Down to get you in range of the adds to use your skills. Another is to simply have the team group up behind a rock on the east side instead when possible or whichever rock is closest to the add spawn. This gives you time to get to the adds more quickly, but might make dealing with the cross more painful than needed.

When it comes to rolling, we get slowed while the adds are out so that reduces the range of our roll to only 9 meters, which is awful and the adds aren't big. I haven't tested this, but if you take the Dirty Trickster heroic utility that removes your slow when using Surrender, you may have to time to do a full roll, which would allow you to get both adds on the east side plus the boss (who should be tanked in between them) for maximum damage.
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xZarquon's Avatar


xZarquon
02.13.2015 , 10:21 AM | #4
Kinda ironic,but I just posted in your dulfy guide yesterday with some tips and tricks. Figured I'd add them here.

I've Been running engineering for awhile now and I really enjoy it. After some experimenting, I've found that the using roll as often as possible in the listed rotation has some drawbacks. Mainly, EMP discharge has a static, 18 second cooldown, so "rotating" covered escape passed it gets kind of wonky. If you raise EMP above covered escape in priority the rotation smooths out again, but then you lose the opportunity to use frag grenade for energy management. A fix I have found for this is to change the order of the rotation:

SoS > PP > IP > CD > (filler) > SoS > PP > EMP > (filler) > EP > (back to start)

This allows covered escape to rotatate through and delay (if necessary) IP, CD, and either filler. Using this rotation, Covered escape is used on cooldown for 4/5 of rotations (as opposed to 2/3 rotations if using the standard engineering rotation. However, if I'm not using covered escape exactly on cooldown, I prefer to split up my dots when possible as using EMP discharge immediately after interrogation probe ensures that the target will not die before getting to use emp discharge. (Note: you can certainly switch the oder of SoS and PP here, I simply find it easier to keep track of PP by using it after SoS even at the expense of capping out on energy on occasion)

In situations where AoE is important, an alternative to any of the listed rotations (including the one I have above) is to change the rotation from an 18-second rotation to a 20 second rotation. This pushes back all of your abilities by 1 gcd every rotation, but allows covered escape to be used on cooldown. While this alone is a slight dps loss, every other pass through your rotation, Orbital strike will be off cooldown and can be cast without the use of energy cooldowns. The end result is damage approximately equal to the standard engineering rotations but with increased AoE potential. The rotation ends up looking like:

SoS > PP > IP > EMP > FG > CE > SoS > PP > CD > (filler) > EP >
SoS > PP > IP > EMP > OS > CE > SoS > PP > FG > CD > EP > (back to start)

Using the free proc'd frag grenade before corrosive dart after using orbital strike is to limit time spent in the secondary regen range (can generally avoid it entirely). While at first glance delaying CD in the orbital strike-containing pass through the rotation seems like a DPS loss, in fact, as you let the dots fall off for a GCD in the 20-second rotation, it's exactly the same as the next pass through re-applies without a GCD delay.

As noted in the guide, but not explicitly stated, another quick trick with this spec for AoE situations is using explosive probe in combination with suppressive fire. Putting cluster bombs up on a target will make the energy drain from suppressive fire far less severe, allowing you to more easily continue into a single-target rotation or use suppressive fire longer before requiring energy cooldowns.

Enjoy.

Camelpockets's Avatar


Camelpockets
02.13.2015 , 12:42 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Good job on the guide overall. You may want to put some space between your paragraphs, though, as the information is hard to read with all those blocks of text. Besides that, there are a few issues I want to point out.



It might be good to mention that the roll causes the player to move in the direction where the camera is pointing and not where the player is pointing. Also, I think you're talking about Doom on NiM Dread Guards since that ability is not present in the Dread Council fight.
Thus why I said formatting is coming soon, this is just simply what I had from my word document. The only thing that I've added was the spoiler tags so people knew what they were reading. I'll be doing fixing the formatting over the course of the weekend.

Also, good catch on the Dread Council thing. I did mean to say Dread Guards, but I guess since the names are almost the same it just happened to slip by.



Quote:
I don't really understand why you split up Shock Charge and Vital Shot into different 9 second rotations instead of including them together on the same one (aka Shock Charge -- Vital Shot). Personally, that's what I do in general as keeping the DoTs aligned is easier to keep track of (especially on fights like Sword Squadron where your target goes immune) and as far as I've seen, Vital Shot does about the same DPS as Sabotage.
They are just about the same DPS, and I do swap these two abilities around from time to time on certain fights, especially Sword Squadron. I guess why I do this is because it is slightly easier on energy to pop Sabotage over Vital Shot, but the difference is actually only minor (by about one 9-second window.) I'll be sure I add in that change. I will note that that is typically what I do during dummy parses because you can actually use a couple extra Hightail It's this way without messing up the structure of the rotation too much.


Quote:
AoE rotations vary a lot based on how much AoE your team puts out and the strategy you use in each boss fight. If you were the only one using AoE the adds on Torque/Underlurker, you can get significantly higher DPS than if you have other people helping (even though that'd be obviously better for the team). On Torque/Underlurker, any adds should die in less than 15 seconds unless something has gone horribly wrong. Rolling for DPS on both fights is not something I do because it requires me to take extra damage to do so and one of the big reasons I just run Sharpshooter nowadays for them. Without the extra energy management for rolling, the adds pretty much have to die in around 9 seconds to make it worth it since you can't afford to throw out an extra Incendiary Grenade with how much it costs. There are other specific issues I'll list below.

On Torque, you can only reach 3 tampering devices with your bigger AoEs (Sweeping Gunfire + Flyby) and 2 with Incendiary Grenade. As far as I can tell, getting into position to roll means you have to stand on the consoles, which puts you in a terrible spot for avoiding damage. Since you still need to kill the 1 add on that side and then another 4 on the opposite when the repair droid is done, the energy cost is painful. You are only going to have Cool Head to get that energy on every other set of tampering device spawns as well since we don't have resets on it anymore.

One of the more important reasons to run Sharpshooter on that fight is that you really want to kill the Shoots Laser add ASAP so unless you have Sabotage Charge + Speed Shot available at that time, you aren't going to be that much help in finishing it quickly. This is especially true since our target switching in 3.0 is not as good as it used to be in Saboteur with Sabotage requiring Shock Charge to be on the target first.

For Underlurker, every group I've played with has had at least 2-3 people mainly AoEing the two adds closer to the exit (east side) so they die pretty quickly. However, due to the movement of the boss, I find I have to delay Incendiary Grenade a lot and we don't have good movement so it's tough to get into range to roll. Every team I've played with has the entire team group up on the west side when getting behind rocks, which is farthest from the adds. One possible solution to this is to take the utility that gives a speed boost upon using Hunker Down to get you in range of the adds to use your skills. Another is to simply have the team group up behind a rock on the east side instead when possible or whichever rock is closest to the add spawn. This gives you time to get to the adds more quickly, but might make dealing with the cross more painful than needed.

When it comes to rolling, we get slowed while the adds are out so that reduces the range of our roll to only 9 meters, which is awful and the adds aren't big. I haven't tested this, but if you take the Dirty Trickster heroic utility that removes your slow when using Surrender, you may have to time to do a full roll, which would allow you to get both adds on the east side plus the boss (who should be tanked in between them) for maximum damage.
Again, this is why I love feedback. So starting with Torque, yes, I agree heavily with the fact that since Saboteur has very little burst besides Sabotage Charge and Speed Shot. Overall, the only things I could see working are those two abilities, Thermal Grenade, and maybe a Quickdraw if you happen to catch it under 30%. Thus why I don't run Saboteur for this fight, unfortunately.

As for Underlurker, I typically don't even attempt to roll on the adds. Maybe if I have to move from point A to B and it's in the way sure I'll do it, but it's not normally for a DPS increase. I believe my group's strat for that boss is since we have 3 melee and 2 ranged DPS, we have each of our melee take their own, and the ranged help out where it's needed. So what I will do is put a IG down between the boss in one add, Freighter one side of the adds, and pop Sabotage Charge on another add, and Sweeping Gunfire down the opposite end. As long I make sure that I hit the add with the Sabotage Charge with it, I normally don't get too energy strained there. I'll keep my other two DoTs on the boss, and use Sabotage on the boss if I start to dip below 70% energy. Normally it doesn't always work like that, but when it does it's largely successful.

Regarding Dirty Trickster for that fight, I don't think it would be beneficial to use in combo with the roll on multiple adds simply because that is quite risky. If you get caught within melee range of one of the adds, and don't have the HD speed boost perk, you will get smashed. Plus, that utility and the Hunker Down reduced CD utilites overpower that by a large amount.

Quote:
SoS > PP > IP > EMP > FG > CE > SoS > PP > CD > (filler) > EP >
SoS > PP > IP > EMP > OS > CE > SoS > PP > FG > CD > EP > (back to start)

Using the free proc'd frag grenade before corrosive dart after using orbital strike is to limit time spent in the secondary regen range (can generally avoid it entirely). While at first glance delaying CD in the orbital strike-containing pass through the rotation seems like a DPS loss, in fact, as you let the dots fall off for a GCD in the 20-second rotation, it's exactly the same as the next pass through re-applies without a GCD delay.

As noted in the guide, but not explicitly stated, another quick trick with this spec for AoE situations is using explosive probe in combination with suppressive fire. Putting cluster bombs up on a target will make the energy drain from suppressive fire far less severe, allowing you to more easily continue into a single-target rotation or use suppressive fire longer before requiring energy cooldowns.
This is actually a pretty good example of what I do for Underlurker, except, I swap out that 3rd SoS for the Suppressive Fire to ensure that all the adds are dying, plus getting to add in a little more kick to the boss.
"We have winnowed all futures. The cull endures. It is optimal. It is necessary." - Shiva
Camels the Revanchist
The Pockets Legacy - Begeren Colony & Shadowlands

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Camelpockets
02.15.2015 , 05:47 PM | #6
Formatting is done, so now it looks a little bit nicer to look at. In some areas anyways.
"We have winnowed all futures. The cull endures. It is optimal. It is necessary." - Shiva
Camels the Revanchist
The Pockets Legacy - Begeren Colony & Shadowlands

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Camelpockets
02.27.2015 , 08:14 AM | #7
Starting next week, I will be streaming our HM runs (and the SMs as well for the competition), so feel free to take a look! (Link posted in the guide.)
"We have winnowed all futures. The cull endures. It is optimal. It is necessary." - Shiva
Camels the Revanchist
The Pockets Legacy - Begeren Colony & Shadowlands

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Camelpockets
03.10.2015 , 09:58 PM | #8
Doesn't seem like many people are reading this, but I'll bump it anyway.
"We have winnowed all futures. The cull endures. It is optimal. It is necessary." - Shiva
Camels the Revanchist
The Pockets Legacy - Begeren Colony & Shadowlands

Kacynski's Avatar


Kacynski
03.11.2015 , 12:27 AM | #9
I am reading it

Thanks for that guide, as I said in another thread Sabotage is the disziplin I feel most comfortable playing with and your guide helped a lot.

Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
03.11.2015 , 03:12 AM | #10
Believe it or not, I read it as well Not very comfortable with this spec yet but on the dummy it is fun so I want to bring it into a raid someday
The Red Eclipse
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