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"Standard" Hybrid PVE Tanking build?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
"Standard" Hybrid PVE Tanking build?

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
10.02.2012 , 06:31 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
Again, we're coming back to Focus generation: the reduced cooldown of Blade Storm is cool in Shien where you generate Focus like a nuclear reactor. Same with the synergy of Commanding Awe ("basically useless" was over the top, I should have said it's a lot less useful than in PvP) and Focused Defense. Overhead Slash every 9 seconds is a lot nicer when it costs 3 Focus, not 4 (I know, I know, I need 4 Focus to activate it either way). In Soresu, it's a different story.

Like I said, it's not really in issue in PvP where you can Leap more often, use Saber Throw more often, you can take the Defiance talent etc. In PvE, the Focus starved nature of the hybrid makes it very, very challenging to play it. Activating Focused Defense just before taunting is a decent tip but there's still the issue of Focus which it eats up. Again, with synchronizing it with Combat Focus and Guardian Leap - Force Leap combo, you can get away with it, probably. It's just a lot of work.

In my opinion, the increase in actual performance isn't worth the hassle. Full Defense will do the job at any type of PvE content in this game and it's far more comfortable to play. Unlike the guy a few posts above me, I'd take a well-played hybrid any time with me to an Operation, just don't make me play one.
The point is that "basically useless" isn't just over the top. It is wrong by any standard. Yes, it is better in PVP, but the 4% damage reduction in PVE is more mitigation than you get from both of the mitigation talents that you get from the exchange of going full Defense instead. Commanding Awe is the best single thing you get from a mitigation standpoint by choosing either spec (that you can't also get in the other spec). What is the point of saying it is better in PVP if the PVE version is still the best mitigation talent available? What was the point of criticizing the talent at all?

I also think it was misleading to talk about the modifier for Guardian Slash when it still generates less threat than Overhead Slash even after the modifier. It is an inferior talent at the moment. Its damage needs to be buffed or the cooldown reduced.....or both.

I agree that Defense is easier and I have already said that I, personally, am specced Defense for precisely this reason. My point is that "ease of play" is the only way that Defense is superior. If you can learn to manage your focus in the Hybrid you will have superior threat and mitigation.

It really irritates me that the Defense tree has been neglected. A full Defense spec ought to be the best tanking spec available and that simply isn't the case. I think the devs in charge of addressing our specs should be ashamed.

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
10.02.2012 , 11:18 PM | #22
OK so lets clear a few things up http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...4-da3b57b7edf5 is a good hybrid build for boss tanking in end game.

It generates more DPS and as much or more threat while being far superior on mitigation to full guardian. People have said specifically how it is better on mitigation in recent posts so i wont repeat it. Really the hybrid is THE boss tank for end game content the full guardian spec is good for learning to tank, its also the better trash tank as it has better aoe and more focus so its easier to use. FOR engame boss tanking hybrid is the best tank in the game - by quite a bit.

If yuou think it has focus issues meaning you cannot use your abilities every time they cool down you are wrong. Heres how you do it.

Make 2 macros - you need a programmeable key board:

Macro 1: Blade Strom - Strrike - Sunder
Marco II: Overhead strike - Strike - Sunder

Macro 1 takes 4.5 second s to exicute - it costs 4 focus to start and generates 5 focus.
Macro II takes 4.5 seconds to exicute - it costs 4 focus to start and generates 5 focus.

Blade storm has a 9 second cool down, Overhead slash has a 9 second cool down. So if you are a complete noob with out a macroable key board you can use this hybrid spec with 4 buttons. If you make 2 marcos you need 2 buttons. you can use these two 3 step rotations one after the other forever - you will build focus and you will never lose agro after the first 15 sec.

If you are a little bit cleaver you will work out how to build riposte into each of these macros so you dont even need to think about that.

During the first fifteen seconds i saber - leap - blade storm - Sweep - Stacsis - Master strike.... then start with one of these two macros. This start generates 5 stacks of sunder, **** loads of threat, a blade barrier and 20% damage reduction from the leap.

This is not actually that hard to play - if you have been saying hybrid is crap and you want to be the best tank in the game go do this approach to hybrid for a week then reconsider. i doubt anyone saying hybrid is crap on this thread have actaully tried it - perhaps they did not set up these 2 simple 3 step rotations. Seriously

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
10.03.2012 , 03:32 AM | #23
You are grossly exaggerating the effectiveness of the hybrid talent tree. Blade Storm + Overhead Slash combined just doesn't create the same threat as Hilt Strike + Guardian Slash + Blade Storm + Riposte. Commanding Awe is indeed quite superior in comparison to talent based mitigations, especially when coupled with Unremitting. However utilizing Unremitting's full potential by leaping back and forth will be quite confusing and may have a rather big room for error --- especially activating Focused Defense to make use of the talent's full potential. The focus problems in Hybrid tree is another issue that limits the tank in preserving all the focus it can generate to execute only 2 abilities mentioned above.

Overall, I believe Hybrid Build provides a bonus in mitigation in comparison to Defense tree and maybe slightly more DPS. But DPS shouldn't be necessary for a tank to execute. It is not necessarily superior in terms of threat, it may seem so on paper when making a direct comparison Guardian Slash against Overhead Slash, but activating Focused Defense or lack of Hilt Strike will cause a loss in threat generation -- not to mention the guardian leap - leap back process.

It is too much effort for miniscule bonuses and is a risky build.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

LarryRow's Avatar


LarryRow
10.03.2012 , 08:44 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Mattmonkey View Post
Macro 1: Blade Strom - Strrike - Sunder
Marco II: Overhead strike - Strike - Sunder

Macro 1 takes 4.5 second s to exicute - it costs 4 focus to start and generates 5 focus.
Macro II takes 4.5 seconds to exicute - it costs 4 focus to start and generates 5 focus.
How do you figure? In Soresu form, Strike generates 1 focus and (talented) Sundering Strike generates 2 focus. In the hybrid build, taking damage grants 1 focus every 6 seconds. So in two runs of your macros, in 18 seconds, you generate 4 from Strike, 8 from Sundering Strike, and 3 from Soresu, or 15 total. Not enough to use Blade Storm and Overhead Slash twice (16), and certainly not enough to work in Riposte.

Look, I'm in favor of the hybrid too, but it's not that simple. You need to burn GCDs on Sweep and Master Strike to give Soresu more time to proc, use talented Force Stasis on cooldown, and use combat focus on cooldown as well. You should still be able to use Blade Storm every time it's up, and usually Riposte as well, but you will not be able to use overhead slash on cooldown.
A classic sig that should not be lost:
Quote:
Stunned , pew pew hack slash , stunned , running backward circles, stunned cannot move, pew pew, break stun, 30 second snare, wha?!?!!? stunned, knockdown, ...less stun more pew pew and hacknslash please.

Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
10.03.2012 , 12:54 PM | #25
I don't mean to throw a wrench into this conversation but... here it goes.

I use a 14/25/2 hybrid build. I have been evolving it and tried the 31 def pre 1.2, and have been working with various tweaks on the hybrid since then. I came here to see if anyone knows how much Blade Barrier absorbs. I've tried sithwarrior.com and most of the theorycrafting and still have yet to find how much "moderate" is. So after reading the other posts I'll break my response into 2 parts; my original goal and response to what I've seen wrong here thus far.

1) Is Blade Barrier worth it?
I use 2 2-set bonuses in my gear. I use 2 BM shells to give me an 8% self heal every time I Guardian Leap. This is mainly for boss transitions or trash clearing. Opening up: Saber Throw -> Force Leap -> Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> Overhead Slash -> Blade Storm -> Freezing Force -> Guardian Leap to rDPS/Healer -> repeat. For trash, not all the hits on the same target and throw in Master Strike/Strike/Sundering Strike to space some of it out. For single target trash/boss maybe remove Freezing Force/Guardian Leap from it (especially if positioning is critical like Zorn). I feel that combination of moves is more flexible and is superior to Blade Barrier (yes, more complex and possibly worse if not executed correctly). I already have points in Momentum and Unremmitting so why not capitalize on them? I don't feel that the 5 points for Blade Barricade + Free Riposte is effective use of my talent points nor do I feel the 3 points for Blade Barrier are effective either (2 for talent and 1 additional to open up the 4th tier).

TLDR: 2k self heal/15 sec + 20% armor for 4 sec/15 sec + Free Blade Storm vs. Blade Barrier's "moderate" + set bonus absorption/10 sec.

2) I think you guys are looking at the defense tree the wrong way. It should be about efficient use of skill tree points and building a rotation/gear based on that.
- Guardian Slash is the worst 31 point tank ability. Compare it to the Shadow's 31 point ability (Guard/Shadow) 15 sec cooldown, 1100 weapon damage, 3 stack of armor reduction, high threat/ 7.5 sec cooldown, 463 kinetic damage, decrease targets DPS, decrease targets movement. Ignore the side effects and look at the damage; Guard has 15 sec 1100 WEAPON damage vs Shadow's 7.5 sec 463 KINETIC (x2: 15 sec 920). Shadow gets +10% acc (weapon vs kinetic) but does 200 less damage. Even if over 15 sec it 'averages out' between the 2, the Guard is still more spike damage where the Shadow is smooth and consistent. A Shadow gets the quicker hit and constantly remains above the melee pull threshold, the Guard has 2x time for his threat to drop below that threshold and lose aggro --- then the tank has to surpass a higher threat value (not maintain a lower one). Replace Guardian Slash with more frequent attacks (Blade Storm 9 sec cooldown and kinetic, Overhead slash 9 sec cooldown weapon)
- Is 5 skill tree points worth it to have a free Riposte + 3% Defense? Especially when you can achieve so much more with 3 points in Dust Storm... -5% Acc = +5% Def.
- I float between 2 points in Solidified Force vs 2 points in Purifying Force. Free spam slow to control trash vs. more damage on trash (Sunden Armor + Force Sweep = more threat)
- For those that can't hold aggro without Taunts, I suggest you work on it. I only use Combat Focus/AoE taunt when I use Enure + Focused Defense with it.
Olin Honos Cailleech Coolio | Draconis Nargal
<The Gray Order>

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
10.03.2012 , 01:57 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by LarryRow View Post
How do you figure? In Soresu form, Strike generates 1 focus and (talented) Sundering Strike generates 2 focus. In the hybrid build, taking damage grants 1 focus every 6 seconds. So in two runs of your macros, in 18 seconds, you generate 4 from Strike, 8 from Sundering Strike, and 3 from Soresu, or 15 total. Not enough to use Blade Storm and Overhead Slash twice (16), and certainly not enough to work in Riposte.

Look, I'm in favor of the hybrid too, but it's not that simple. You need to burn GCDs on Sweep and Master Strike to give Soresu more time to proc, use talented Force Stasis on cooldown, and use combat focus on cooldown as well. You should still be able to use Blade Storm every time it's up, and usually Riposte as well, but you will not be able to use overhead slash on cooldown.
Yea i stand corrected - your right about the focus generation. However if you or anyone wants to play hybrid go make these two macros. I always have agro to keep up reposte i use bladestorm every 9 sec. its really not a ahrad spec to play once you use strike - sunder between each of your two main abilities.

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
10.03.2012 , 02:01 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
You are grossly exaggerating the effectiveness of the hybrid talent tree. Blade Storm + Overhead Slash combined just doesn't create the same threat as Hilt Strike + Guardian Slash + Blade Storm + Riposte. Commanding Awe is indeed quite superior in comparison to talent based mitigations, especially when coupled with Unremitting. However utilizing Unremitting's full potential by leaping back and forth will be quite confusing and may have a rather big room for error --- especially activating Focused Defense to make use of the talent's full potential. The focus problems in Hybrid tree is another issue that limits the tank in preserving all the focus it can generate to execute only 2 abilities mentioned above.

Overall, I believe Hybrid Build provides a bonus in mitigation in comparison to Defense tree and maybe slightly more DPS. But DPS shouldn't be necessary for a tank to execute. It is not necessarily superior in terms of threat, it may seem so on paper when making a direct comparison Guardian Slash against Overhead Slash, but activating Focused Defense or lack of Hilt Strike will cause a loss in threat generation -- not to mention the guardian leap - leap back process.

It is too much effort for miniscule bonuses and is a risky build.
I agree it may be slightly less threat - however it produces plently of threat. Our geared DPS never pull from me and threat from DPS is better for the raid when enrage timers are tight in progression content.

There is no need to leap out and in - i never do this. the mitigation is superior without leaping. many boss fights have knockback and leap in mechanics anyways. But to me the leap out and back approach has always been a gimic and not a good idea. Similarly i NEVER use focus defence and then taunt back - to me thats just crazy when you think about what can go wrong.

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
10.03.2012 , 02:02 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Kil-Gorbane View Post
I don't mean to throw a wrench into this conversation but... here it goes.

I use a 14/25/2 hybrid build. I have been evolving it and tried the 31 def pre 1.2, and have been working with various tweaks on the hybrid since then. I came here to see if anyone knows how much Blade Barrier absorbs. I've tried sithwarrior.com and most of the theorycrafting and still have yet to find how much "moderate" is. So after reading the other posts I'll break my response into 2 parts; my original goal and response to what I've seen wrong here thus far.

1) Is Blade Barrier worth it?
I use 2 2-set bonuses in my gear. I use 2 BM shells to give me an 8% self heal every time I Guardian Leap. This is mainly for boss transitions or trash clearing. Opening up: Saber Throw -> Force Leap -> Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> Overhead Slash -> Blade Storm -> Freezing Force -> Guardian Leap to rDPS/Healer -> repeat. For trash, not all the hits on the same target and throw in Master Strike/Strike/Sundering Strike to space some of it out. For single target trash/boss maybe remove Freezing Force/Guardian Leap from it (especially if positioning is critical like Zorn). I feel that combination of moves is more flexible and is superior to Blade Barrier (yes, more complex and possibly worse if not executed correctly). I already have points in Momentum and Unremmitting so why not capitalize on them? I don't feel that the 5 points for Blade Barricade + Free Riposte is effective use of my talent points nor do I feel the 3 points for Blade Barrier are effective either (2 for talent and 1 additional to open up the 4th tier).

TLDR: 2k self heal/15 sec + 20% armor for 4 sec/15 sec + Free Blade Storm vs. Blade Barrier's "moderate" + set bonus absorption/10 sec.

2) I think you guys are looking at the defense tree the wrong way. It should be about efficient use of skill tree points and building a rotation/gear based on that.
- Guardian Slash is the worst 31 point tank ability. Compare it to the Shadow's 31 point ability (Guard/Shadow) 15 sec cooldown, 1100 weapon damage, 3 stack of armor reduction, high threat/ 7.5 sec cooldown, 463 kinetic damage, decrease targets DPS, decrease targets movement. Ignore the side effects and look at the damage; Guard has 15 sec 1100 WEAPON damage vs Shadow's 7.5 sec 463 KINETIC (x2: 15 sec 920). Shadow gets +10% acc (weapon vs kinetic) but does 200 less damage. Even if over 15 sec it 'averages out' between the 2, the Guard is still more spike damage where the Shadow is smooth and consistent. A Shadow gets the quicker hit and constantly remains above the melee pull threshold, the Guard has 2x time for his threat to drop below that threshold and lose aggro --- then the tank has to surpass a higher threat value (not maintain a lower one). Replace Guardian Slash with more frequent attacks (Blade Storm 9 sec cooldown and kinetic, Overhead slash 9 sec cooldown weapon)
- Is 5 skill tree points worth it to have a free Riposte + 3% Defense? Especially when you can achieve so much more with 3 points in Dust Storm... -5% Acc = +5% Def.
- I float between 2 points in Solidified Force vs 2 points in Purifying Force. Free spam slow to control trash vs. more damage on trash (Sunden Armor + Force Sweep = more threat)
- For those that can't hold aggro without Taunts, I suggest you work on it. I only use Combat Focus/AoE taunt when I use Enure + Focused Defense with it.
this is a good pvp build - i would not use it raiding it gives up way to much to produce extra aoe and single target dps

Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
10.03.2012 , 03:40 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Mattmonkey View Post
this is a good pvp build - i would not use it raiding it gives up way to much to produce extra aoe and single target dps
Like what?

That is my main question. I am trading "moderate" damage absorption for guardian leap's 8% self heal. (Can anyone tell me how blade barrier's absorbed damage is determined so I can compare it to my hp self heal?)

So the other trade off is 3% def for more aoe dps and single target dps... so more threat. As I said before... 5 skill tree points for 3% Def is not efficient.

Then there is the 4% shield, but I don't think any hybrid build has that right now.

BTW, I am at 25K HP/29 Def/50 Shield/47 Absorption and have cleared EC HM and first 2 bosses in TFB HM. I main tank Kephess on EC HM because I take noticeable less damage than the Shadow tank (probably my higher armor).
Olin Honos Cailleech Coolio | Draconis Nargal
<The Gray Order>

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
10.03.2012 , 04:01 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kil-Gorbane View Post
Like what?

That is my main question. I am trading "moderate" damage absorption for guardian leap's 8% self heal. (Can anyone tell me how blade barrier's absorbed damage is determined so I can compare it to my hp self heal?)

So the other trade off is 3% def for more aoe dps and single target dps... so more threat. As I said before... 5 skill tree points for 3% Def is not efficient.

Then there is the 4% shield, but I don't think any hybrid build has that right now.

BTW, I am at 25K HP/29 Def/50 Shield/47 Absorption and have cleared EC HM and first 2 bosses in TFB HM. I main tank Kephess on EC HM because I take noticeable less damage than the Shadow tank (probably my higher armor).
Guardian leaps self heal is a set bouns from pvp gear -so if you want that you can get it. Blade barrier absorbs abround 1k damage every 9 seconds after mitigation. 3% defence is quite a bit and given that riposte is off the gcd and costs 1 foces and does resonable damage your not really picking up much extra dps or threat. This build is good for aoe ill give you that but really who cares. AOE threat is irrelevent for end game boss tanking.