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"LFM 1 DPS HM Foundry (No Warriors)"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
"LFM 1 DPS HM Foundry (No Warriors)"

Niaoru's Avatar


Niaoru
03.04.2012 , 05:00 PM | #21
Reroll Republic! We don't have these problems on our side. :P
Niaoru - V65+ Scoundrel/Scrapper
ePeen - Republic PvP/PvE Guild

Vid-szhite's Avatar


Vid-szhite
03.04.2012 , 06:41 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Niaoru View Post
Reroll Republic! We don't have these problems on our side. :P
But then I'd have to give up my Fus Ro Dah.

Ganrax's Avatar


Ganrax
03.04.2012 , 06:49 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by sgtjohnf View Post
You guys didn't think of the possibility that maybe they already had one or two warriors, and perhaps didn't want to have to share the gear?
I was thinking the exact same thing but people always jump to the worst possible conclusion.

I've had plenty of groups that didn't want to take me because they already had 2 troopers or groups that warned me that there were 2 other troopers and I said it was alright and I would just wait for another. Doesn't bother me in the slightest when I get passed over due to class, the whole point of doing these Hardmodes it to get loot and if it's going to inconvenience people by bringing too many of the same class then it defeats the purpose of running the flashpoint.

Vid-szhite's Avatar


Vid-szhite
03.04.2012 , 06:57 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Ganrax View Post
I was thinking the exact same thing but people always jump to the worst possible conclusion.

I've had plenty of groups that didn't want to take me because they already had 2 troopers or groups that warned me that there were 2 other troopers and I said it was alright and I would just wait for another. Doesn't bother me in the slightest when I get passed over due to class, the whole point of doing these Hardmodes it to get loot and if it's going to inconvenience people by bringing too many of the same class then it defeats the purpose of running the flashpoint.
You missed the part where we were right. The healer wrongfully blamed Warriors as a class for his team's inability to defeat the first boss of Foundry. This wasn't about loot, this was about a bad healer passing the buck for his own failures. I didn't assume that, I was told that by his former teammate.

Get off your high horse. We didn't jump to conclusions. I saw the party makeup before I was kicked and it was clearly Sorcerer Healer, Assassin Tank, Mercenary, and myself. I didn't include that because I didn't think it was important information. Clearly, I was mistaken.

Ganrax's Avatar


Ganrax
03.04.2012 , 07:20 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Vid-szhite View Post
You missed the part where we were right. The healer wrongfully blamed Warriors as a class for his team's inability to defeat the first boss of Foundry. This wasn't about loot, this was about a bad healer passing the buck for his own failures. I didn't assume that, I was told that by his former teammate.

Get off your high horse. We didn't jump to conclusions. I saw the party makeup before I was kicked and it was clearly Sorcerer Healer, Assassin Tank, Mercenary, and myself. I didn't include that because I didn't think it was important information. Clearly, I was mistaken.
The only part of your post where you indicated that you thought you were right was this:

"Hey. I'm the DPS that left their group, the reason they're LFM right now. Warriors weren't the reason that group fell apart, the healer didn't heal and let the tank die on the first 2 trash pulls. We had 2 Warriors, though, so he blames you guys for what happened. Couldn't even clear the 1st boss cause of him. Doesn't wanna admit he's bad. "

The group never came out and said that this was the reason you weren't taken on the run according to you. All you have is the word of some random guy claiming to have been DPSing in the group. For all you know he was to blame for their wipe, if there even was one, and is deciding to put the blame on the healer. When there are wipes, especially when a group falls apart, people love to throw the blame around and rarely take fault so you can't really take the word of anyone unless you were there.

So from our standpoint with the information you gave us all we can see is a group that doesn't want a Warrior which could mean that they either don't want to split the loot(the most common innocent reason) or they simply don't think Warriors are viable dps(the much less common reason that would make the group a bunch of idiots). Simply stating the group makeup would have proved the latter, otherwise it just seems like you were jumping to the worst possible scenario when you didn't get invited into a group because of your class.

Vid-szhite's Avatar


Vid-szhite
03.04.2012 , 08:14 PM | #26
Plenty of others were telling me that the conduct of the leader was very poor. I had put him on ignore very early on, but the reactions I saw from not only general chat, but from other tells, told me this guy was not being classy, he was being vile and disrespectful. Several tells were akin to "holy crap, I can't believe this guy... you're lucky you have him on ignore"

This should have been clear by the fact that I said Fleet General was getting angrier at him for several minutes. I left out specifics because it made my post look long-winded, and the constant new lines for dialog were making it difficult to read.

This was a victory. Let us own it.

Lino-Nofx's Avatar


Lino-Nofx
03.04.2012 , 09:05 PM | #27
Heh, I'm always astounded by these kinds of people, their lack of knowledge I can look past, the attitude however I can't.

For that reason alone I'd like to see a DPS meter of some sort, it's fun to shove it in their face after they've doubted you.

I have a thing for picking the less popular classes so it's happened a few times over the years.
In AO I remember a guy telling me I couldn't be the tank because I was the wrong race, he however was, but played more of an offtank. He pulled 2 mobs, I let him "tank", he died pathetically.

Then when everybody was back up I started pulling the entire floor of mobs and tank them all at once

Later I would also tank 4/5 mercs, which were raid bosses, at the same time, in an open playfield, with competing guilds trying to steal our mobs, or bring more in the hopes I would die, good times After that particular day they started contacting me before the raid start, bargaining for our scraps.

In AoC I played a HoX, a class about as undervalued and somewhat complex to play well as the Marauder I am playing now. I recall a PUG raid where the raid leader was having a fit because at the end of the instance, I beat him on DPS by a good margin. The Gimped HoX beating his uber Necro was something his brain and ego couldn't process.

He did it in Italian, thinking I wouldn't understand, but my gf being Sicilian, I managed to get the jist of it heh.

In TOR it happened only once so far, a group that wasn't quite sure they should take me being a Marauder, and other classes supposedly being much better at DPS.
However I was the only one pulling aggro off the tank regularly, and had to lower my output.

After that they admitted their mistake, so all's good, it's quite satisfying when you can disprove people's flawed opinions.

To be fair though, the classes I mentioned were all somewhat difficult to play well, and the level
at which some people perform with them is incredible, in a bad way.

In TOR it's hard to say without proper tools to measure DPS, but Warzones give some indication, but in AoC I recall doing as much as 5 times the DPS of the terrible HoXs, and up to twice the damage of the decent ones.

In fact, on my server I only ran into a handful of people who could compete.

Anyway enough rambling, prove them wrong when you can, and if they won't give you the chance to, turning the whole server against them like it seems the OP did is a good move

There are optimal setups of course, but people seem to forget that a good player of the less desired class, will always outperform a bad player of the desired one.

Vid-szhite's Avatar


Vid-szhite
03.05.2012 , 02:15 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Lino-Nofx View Post
Heh, I'm always astounded by these kinds of people, their lack of knowledge I can look past, the attitude however I can't.

For that reason alone I'd like to see a DPS meter of some sort, it's fun to shove it in their face after they've doubted you.
Funny, I've been through this exact same thing in FFXI. Same class as now, even - Warrior. The class was never changed in any way, and still to this day has not changed one bit - it was never buffed, never nerfed, never given anything new, not even gear. However, its perception in the eyes of the player base changed several times:


1) Worthless at North American release - everyone was a noob, everyone played Warrior with the wrong gear, the wrong weapons, and thought of it only as a subpar tank, or as only a melee-class subjob, or as a means to get to 37 (the maximum level a Sub Job could be) to unlock an advanced job, and never be touched again. You were mocked mercilessly for even playing the job over level 40. People literally would think you had a mental disorder and were a drain on society. Playing Warrior as a main job was so unthinkable that many players didn't even consider it a possibility - it would be as if, in SWTOR, you leveled to 50 without your Advanced Class (which has been done, on Warrior, no less). Dark Knights were considered the most powerful DPS in the game because it could consistently put out big numbers on its auto-attacks, and its big weapon skill (limit break).

All of this was made infinitely worse by the now-infamous BradyGames Guide, which not only flat out said Warrior was worthless as a Main Job, but was full of misinformation that was either plain wrong, or were bug exploits that were fixed a week before it even went to print. Many people used it as a bible, however, which is why we saw so many terrible Warriors using a White Mage subjob to practice being a Paladin (cringe-worthy -- if White Magic wasn't native to your class, having it as a sub job would cap its healing power at half your main level).



2) Bafflingly Overpowered about a year after release. Parsers came out, exposing Dark Knights as one of the weakest DPS in the game because of its painfully slow attack speed and reputation for missing when it counted. Once people learned how to play the Warrior, how to gear the class, and realized what it was fully capable of - a grassroots education effort headed by Career Warriors like myself - other "advanced" melee DPS realized that their Warrior subjob was the primary source of all their power, and as such, Warrior itself was on par with them, if not better. Warrior alone had the only taunt in the game (native to the class), and all the best combat buffs every melee DPS relied upon (hence its popularity as a sub-job), so even Tanks needed it as their sub. Once harder content started requiring them to eschew their hard-hitting/taunting Warrior subjob in favor of the far more survivable Ninja subjob, their DPS plateaued, while Warrior's soared to new heights.

Ninja subjob had two main things going for it: Utsusemi, which gave you guaranteed evasion for the next 3 attacks that hit you, and Dual Wield, which is exactly what it sounds like. Most of the Advanced-job melee DPS had two-handed weapons as their only viable option, which made Dual Wield useless to them, but anyone could use Utsusemi, so it became a requirement. Not using it made you a drain on your party. Warriors were versatile, however, and their two viable weapons were the Axe and Great Axe. They could take full advantage of dual wield, and since they had the game's only taunt, they could dodge-tank with Utsusemi while doing massive DPS. It took a ton of skill to be able to dodge-tank, since it was technically an exploit that Ninja and Warrior could dodge-tank in the first place, but the devs admired their players' creativity and ran with it, precisely because it was so difficult to do.

However, in a pure DPS role, Utsusemi meant no DPS ever needed to watch their hate, and could slam away with all their might without caring about the tank. Eventually, exp parties ditched tanks and main healers completely, because healing a tank at all became a liability, no tank could hold hate without Warrior's Taunt because their damage was crap to nonexistent, and melee DPS subbing ninja could bounce hate between them and rarely lose all 3 shadows before Utsusemi came off cooldown. Parties soon became composed of 4 Melee DPS (sub Ninja), 1 Bard (to send their DPS to astronomical heights), and 1 Red Mage (for mana regen and any spot healing the DPS might need). Warriors were top pick, and quickly became the most popular class in the game.



3) Worthless again many years later. Damage formulas were discovered, and people realized that two-handed weapons could never even scratch their maximum potential with the way the damage formulas were calculated, and were in fact inferior to dual-wielded one-handed weapons in virtually every way. Not all two-handed DPS were underpowered, but two stood out and had been underdogs for several years: Dark Knights and Dragoons. Even Warriors had long since abandoned their Great Axes because of the supremacy of Dual Wield (plus the fact that Ninja gave no boosts to two-handed weapons at all).

To counter this, Square-Enix announced a sweeping buff to the entire Two-handed weapon class, and added Offhand "Grips" for two-handed users (similar to the way Juggernaut DPS have a Force Focus). They also added new sub-job-capable abilities to the existing Samurai class, which sought to balance against /Ninja by offering similar benefits to two-handed users only. Once implemented, everyone quickly realized how insanely overpowered it was. Two-handed classes which were balanced before, like Samurai themselves, were now so over the top that no one could even compare to them. Dragoon, once an underdog, was now so overpowered that it could solo exp content that normally required full parties.

Warriors, still equally benefiting from the two-handed buff themselves, were cast aside once again. A move that, once again, made no sense, since Warriors had access to Great Axes. However, since many Warriors were Dual-Axe bandwagon-hoppers, their Great Axe skill was still at 0, and getting it to acceptable levels would take weeks of grinding. Their overwhelming numbers drowned out the good warriors and caused both to be left to rot.



4) Awesome again, not even a week later when Square Enix scaled back their buffs to acceptable levels, and people realized that the Samurai version of Utsusemi was unreliable. Ninja once again became the go-to subjob for exp parties for its reliably high survivability, with /Samurai being an off-spec if a party was feeling generous or adventurous.



I started FFXI as a Monk because I went for the underdog, and at NA release, "underdog" was anyone that wasn't a Dark Knight. I refused to even touch Warrior because I bought into the hype that it was only tank and only a subjob, and since I turned my nose up at tanking, I decided it wasn't the subjob I wanted. After a while, I realized I couldn't avoid it, I needed Warrior as my Subjob, so I had to level it. I fell in love with the class and never turned back. I became one of the first career warriors. Now, here I am again. Different game, same problem.

When I told a white mage in my Linkshell (guild) that I, as a Warrior tank, could hold hate through Benediction, his two-hour-cooldown mega heal that was considered the ultimate taunt from how much hate it pulled, he told me I was a liar. I took him out into the wilderness and showed it to him myself. His jaw hit the floor. I didn't just hold hate through Benediction, I held hate through his entire mana pool spamming AoE heals just trying to rip hate from me. He never did.

Battilea's Avatar


Battilea
03.05.2012 , 03:28 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Lino-Nofx View Post
Heh, I'm always astounded by these kinds of people, their lack of knowledge I can look past, the attitude however I can't.

For that reason alone I'd like to see a DPS meter of some sort, it's fun to shove it in their face after they've doubted you.

I have a thing for picking the less popular classes so it's happened a few times over the years.
Had the same sort of thing in DCUO. I played a mental DPS, which most people deemed as being bad, the second worst or so. Yet I ran neck on neck with the supposed best, even in the hands of good players, while they were using a weapon type that was superior to mine. I'd fall behind on trash a bit, typically, since my set needed a bit longer duration fights and relied on an interruptable AoE, but on bosses, nobody could touch my damage output.

doromleynek's Avatar


doromleynek
03.05.2012 , 03:39 AM | #30
That sir is why noble Warriors and those behind the screen are BAMFs. Elitists can go to hell.