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Vote kick should incur 20 minute lockout


MagicTerror's Avatar


MagicTerror
12.10.2020 , 02:24 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by SoontirMorillo View Post
Again. Whoever argues, you should ban players from certain content, because of gear, when they are clearly overleveled and overgeared are just wrong. It's more likely that they are the bads, that needs to be carried.
I think it's a bad idea fighting toxic elitism with more of the same when you accuse those 306 players of being carry-dependent.

It's not always the case, but if you have a pug with a lot of gear sub-300, there's a good chance that they have never done the content before and are still trying to get the hang of their abilities; I don't know exactly why but it happens a lot. And the combination is always going to be a useless struggle in flashpoints that require more than button mashing.

Directive 7? Athiss? Go ahead and come along with whatever Achievements/Gear you have. Lost Island? Manaan? Blood Hunt? I'm going to expect at least one of the 2 from you. I'm fine with inexperience with a particular area, but at some point helping them along is going to waste more time than the lockout would.

One red flag? I really hate how certain players try to sugarcoat their inexperience with "it's been a while", as if they're totally veterans, they just need to know this little bit of the game that's changed since they took a hiatus. It always turns out to be a lot of stuff they need filling in on; it's never just the boss mechanics, it's how their rotation works, where the kolto is, where their cleanse/interrupt is and even what it does.

LD_Little_Dragon's Avatar


LD_Little_Dragon
12.10.2020 , 05:07 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by MagicTerror View Post
I think it's a bad idea fighting toxic elitism with more of the same when you accuse those 306 players of being carry-dependent.

It's not always the case, but if you have a pug with a lot of gear sub-300, there's a good chance that they have never done the content before and are still trying to get the hang of their abilities; I don't know exactly why but it happens a lot. And the combination is always going to be a useless struggle in flashpoints that require more than button mashing.

Directive 7? Athiss? Go ahead and come along with whatever Achievements/Gear you have. Lost Island? Manaan? Blood Hunt? I'm going to expect at least one of the 2 from you. I'm fine with inexperience with a particular area, but at some point helping them along is going to waste more time than the lockout would.

One red flag? I really hate how certain players try to sugarcoat their inexperience with "it's been a while", as if they're totally veterans, they just need to know this little bit of the game that's changed since they took a hiatus. It always turns out to be a lot of stuff they need filling in on; it's never just the boss mechanics, it's how their rotation works, where the kolto is, where their cleanse/interrupt is and even what it does.
This, and while it is possible to get through the harder FP with one inexperienced, or just bad, player, having 2 is usually a recipe for disaster.

I will clarify that I am talking about group-finder pugs, before all the elitists jump on me for be 'bad' because I can't carry 3 poorly geared newbies through Nathema. If you pre-form a group with more than one inexperienced player than those players will be actually following instructions and willing to learn. Bad pugs rarely even let you know they're new, or bother to ask about mechanics.
Stealthy heals, stealthy dps, stealthy life.

MagicTerror's Avatar


MagicTerror
12.10.2020 , 05:30 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by LD_Little_Dragon View Post
Bad pugs rarely even let you know they're new, or bother to ask about mechanics.
And those bad pugs will often quit after a few wipes because it turns out the boss is too hard for them to want to learn, or worse because we've been at this for 20 minutes trying to teach it and it turns out they have to go to bed in 10 minutes.

I'd understand the former if they'd be straight up after some discouraging wipes and say "Sorry I don't actually want to do this flashpoint, there's too much stuff to keep track of". But if you pick a very short window of time to try and get through a flashpoint you're simply assuming with no prior experience will be cake, I'm not going to want to group with you again when you waste our efforts to get you through it.

SoontirMorillo's Avatar


SoontirMorillo
12.10.2020 , 08:56 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by MagicTerror View Post
I think it's a bad idea fighting toxic elitism with more of the same when you accuse those 306 players of being carry-dependent.
Yeah, it is. You're right. I'm a little bit toxic myself.

Quote: Originally Posted by MagicTerror View Post
It's not always the case, but if you have a pug with a lot of gear sub-300, there's a good chance that they have never done the content before and are still trying to get the hang of their abilities; I don't know exactly why but it happens a lot. And the combination is always going to be a useless struggle in flashpoints that require more than button mashing.
(...)
One red flag? I really hate how certain players try to sugarcoat their inexperience with "it's been a while", as if they're totally veterans, they just need to know this little bit of the game that's changed since they took a hiatus. It always turns out to be a lot of stuff they need filling in on; it's never just the boss mechanics, it's how their rotation works, where the kolto is, where their cleanse/interrupt is and even what it does.
But that's my point. Kind of. Bad pugs will always be bad. No matter if they are in sub-306-gear or in 306-gear. If you get them, you get them. No gear requirement for flashpoints will change that. You just rob better players the opportunity to do content.

And you will rob mediocre players the opportunity to learn and carry bad bugs. Again, we are talking about flashpoints, that have level 70 enemies in it. And in more than half of them one geared player should be able to carry. If he can't, he should optimize his play, and don't yell at a sub-306 player.

If you demand gear requirement for basic flashpoints, on top of being five level above the mobs in the flashpoint, the game takes another step in the wrong direction. You make the game once again easier for the players. Why can't something be challenging in the game? Why has everybody to sleepwalk through something called master mode flashpoints. I see enough operative heals in hard mode/veteran operations not using kolto probe. And they're succesfull. But why? Why should someone be succesfull in somewhat challenging content, without understanding basic stuff of his class? I don't see the appeal from this approach.

Bioware made nightmare endgame gear accessible for everyone.
Bioware made everyone a level 75 for level 70 master mode flashpoints with generous sync.
Bioware gave everyone additional 30 veteran edge stacks. For hard flashpoint even more (Chiss, 59).
Bioware gave you everything.
And on top of all of that, players want still minimum gear requirement, because they can't do it, if only one player doesn't meet this overpowered requirements!?
Again: if you're at this point in your swtor-life, you just need to face the fact, that it is probably you. It doesn't change, if you call me toxic. It's just a fact. Face the truth.

Where will it stop? It's called master mode. Do you want to enter the room and all mobs die? In master mode?

MagicTerror's Avatar


MagicTerror
12.12.2020 , 01:55 PM | #35
The point isn't that high gear makes content a faceroll; there's plenty of content which can be a faceroll either way, and plenty of content that's a challenge even with the best gear (does any of us even know what the baseline for MM is? Because Bioware sure hasn't stated one in-game in a while). It's that overgearing is supposed to be your substitute for experience with a Flashpoint or Operation in many places, no one wants to wait for it to be revealed as a sandbagging run when the odds are high it will be.

People are often lazy, they're going to demand that other group members know everything about a boss, or have top tier gear, or have the latest augments to give their stats a little boost in a MM Operation they've cleared already just so they can meet the dps check a few stupid seconds earlier. There's a bit of annoyance that comes with having to reteach something you know backward, so most don't want to go to the trouble.

And at this point, with the ease it is to get 306, what they're asking isn't such a big deal; if you don't have it when jumping into a tough FP, many groups will assume something is lacking in your understanding of the game. The ones who auto kick when looking at their character tooltip and saying "eek 270!!" are complete tools, but I for one soldier on with an "it's been a while" 270 toon while always having the nagging expectation we're going to wipe more than the rest of the group's tolerance allows, once that tolerance breaks, I just quit (and haha shorter or no lockout because I tried!). I try not to be rude with my reactions to them, but if that makes me sound rude, whatever.

In a perfect world, where you had perfect reflexes and knowledge of your class and the flashpoint, bare minimum gear would get you through; but that's a one in a million chance you get a pug like that. There's a difference between wanting to be carried, and wanting to get through something without a ball and chain behind you. There's very little excuse to have neither experience or compensating gear these days.