I'm a new level 50 Jedi Shadow, and specced thoroughly through the defense tree for tanking power.

 

But in running red reaper at level 48, it's a little apparent that Shadows don't possess the same pure baseline defense capability as say, a Guardian. So I'm curious, what exactly is the role of a Defense Shadow in an Ops group? Do we main tank anything? Offtank some adds? Pull bosses off of the main tanks for a short breather?

 

What are you experiences with shadows in Ops groups? Just looking for an idea of what I am going to be doing or responsible for...and if I should just go to boring ol' dps Shadow.

I'm a new level 50 Jedi Shadow, and specced thoroughly through the defense tree for tanking power.

 

But in running red reaper at level 48, it's a little apparent that Shadows don't possess the same pure baseline defense capability as say, a Guardian. So I'm curious, what exactly is the role of a Defense Shadow in an Ops group? Do we main tank anything? Offtank some adds? Pull bosses off of the main tanks for a short breather?

 

What are you experiences with shadows in Ops groups? Just looking for an idea of what I am going to be doing or responsible for...and if I should just go to boring ol' dps Shadow.

 

Your conclusion is wrong.

 

There is nothing wrong with Shadow tank survivability. All three are relatively equal with some differences, obviously.

 

We are main tanks.

We use a single Shadow tank for both Karagga and EV (HM+NMM). In fact, Shadows are probably the best Soa tanks due to how his attack mechanics work (purely force) + being able to Sprint. Edited January 30, 2012 by Exertim

No idea what you are doing that makes you feel inadequate to tank. I've easily tanked every hard mode and EV on normal. I have no doubt I could go further, and most likely will now that I have more time.

 

The only really glaring weakness I can find between shadow/sin tanks and others is that our major defensive CD is a defense skill buff (50%), while other tanks get an actual damage reduction ability. Depending on the boss, our CD can be anywhere from nigh invulnerability to completely useless. It's especially evident in PVP, where half the classes attacks bypass defense entirely.

 

Even so, this class has other strengths over the other tanks, and unless you are doing super high end progression raiding on a fight where defense isn't very helpful, you won't have issues.

I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

 

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Eirienie

I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

 

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.

 

If you need more healing, then you're gearing wrong.

From what I'd gather so far on my Sin at 35 is that you're mostly Shield/Def as opposed to a Guard/Jugg being Armor/Def/shield. I'd say the Sin/Shadow rely solely on keeping their def and Shield chance as high as possible. I've thus far had a better run with my Sin in places like Taris where as a Jugg I pretty much needed Quinn at my side for heals. Guard/Jugg are more about eating the damage thrown at them while Sin/Shadow are more about mitigating it.

 

In a FP however team composition could be the problem. Maybe your designated healer just isn't up to par.

 

 

 

They should give Sin/Shadow's their original stances back and boost Soresu for the Guard/Jugg. Instead of nerfing one class for it's tanking abilities, they should of buffed the Guard/Jugg to be more competitive in the tank spec.

This another person coming to the conclusion that "other classes wear heavy armour, mine doesnt" then whining about it? Look at the facts. Shadows MT Ops. If you have a problem, its your problem, not the class.

I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

 

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.

 

Thats quite a substantial claim when the theorycrafters have already shown just how close the 3 tank classes actually are . Try reading the tank forum stickies if you need a citation.

 

 

I also just wish people would actually try to understand how Shad/Sin armor actually works. Sin/Shadow in light armor after talent modifiers & dark charge have extremely comparible armor to a heavy armor wearing Jugg. If you personally don't like the 'idea' of a light armor wearing "dress" tank , that's fine. But people saying "how can they tank they only wear light armor' is simply incorrect.

 

Also the heavy armor wearing classes do not have 8k more "base" HP. The only way someone had more HP than you is their own personal level / gear Endurnace + any modifers stims/buffs they had at the time.

 

If it was 100% clear in your own mind that you required 'more healing' as you say it likely comes down to not maintaining optimal buff/debuffs on yourself & your target. Playing Sin / Shadow optimally as a tank is an exercise in micro management the likes of which easily discourages many people to rather just play one of the other two tank capable classes which tend to require alot less effort & thought for comparible results.

 

You have 3 target debuffs & two self buffs to keep track of all simultaneously on short durration CD's & watching for another 2 separate effect procs...let any of these drop or miss a proc & your survivability &/or threat drop off very rapidly .

 

Played poorly a Sin/Shadow is the least forgiving , any errors in play will show immediatly and evolve rapidly in spiralling effect difficult to recover from.

Played optimally a Sin/Shadow tank can do some absolutely amazing things......unbreakable

I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

 

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.

 

Tank "stance" for assassin is Dark Charge which compensates for base armor difference between light/heavy armor classes. Then you aim for 100% uptime of Dark Ward (more shields!), Wither and Discharge for debuffing and threat (they hit you less!), Shock as much as possible and heal yourself through Force Lightning (self-heal!). Also anticipating incoming heavy damage and using CDs (2 relics, medpacks, Force Shroud, Deflection) in time to counter these spikes is what makes you the best tank ever for your healer

For PvE tanking you could grab some moddable gear and fill it with blue or epic 50 lvl mods (say, daily quest rewards) that have max endurance and other tanking stats on it. Takes 7 days to grind it to full set. That's between 17k and 18k HP unbuffed, I believe. That's it, 8k HP difference is obviously gear, nothing "base" about it

Edited January 30, 2012 by Antiqua

I'm a shadow tank and, having been level 50 for just over a week now, I've not found any evidence that I'm behind other classes in terms of survivability. With the right talents, gear and rotations, I have found no evidence that shadow tanking isn't viable. There are plenty of good theorycrafting articles out there.

 

I'm not that far into end-game content yet (in terms of group content, I've only done a few Hard Mode Flashpoints - Operations will have to wait until we have more 50s in the guild), but the difference that decent gear has made to my survivability is impressive. I tried Esseles Hard Mode with a guild group a couple of days after hitting 50 and only got to the second boss - it was just too much for the healer. Tried it again last night (with the same group) and it was trivial, thanks to the gear from dailies and the normal modes for Battle of Ilum/False Emperor.

 

I've not seen enough of the other tanking classes yet to offer detailed thoughts on how we stack up vs them, but my early thoughts are that we come out roughly the same in terms of damage reduction and evasion, somewhat ahead of them in terms of multi-target threat and positioning/utility and perhaps slightly behind in terms of ability to stack on rapid single-target threat. Happy to be proven wrong on any of that in due course, however.

This another person coming to the conclusion that "other classes wear heavy armour, mine doesnt" then whining about it? Look at the facts. Shadows MT Ops. If you have a problem, its your problem, not the class.

 

You know, I should have known better to ask for advice or knowledge on an MMO forum...behave, children, behave.

You know, I should have known better to ask for advice or knowledge on an MMO forum...behave, children, behave.

While I agree some of the responses are a bit over the top... you weren't really asking for advice or knowledge: you came in convinced of a falsehood and that has to be corrected.

You know, I should have known better to ask for advice or knowledge on an MMO forum...behave, children, behave.

 

Several posters have given you information as to why your conclusion is wrong.. and this is how you respond?

 

For the record, I'm usually the MT in everything we do and have absolutely no problem. There also isnt a Jugg anywhere on the planet with 8K more HP then me, not unless they are popping their buff.. and even then I'm not sure it would be 8k more.

 

It sounds like you just hit 50 and are undergeared, comparing yourself to a full Rakata/Columni geared Jugg, then going "Why do I suck".

I'm a new level 50 Jedi Shadow, and specced thoroughly through the defense tree for tanking power.

 

But in running red reaper at level 48, it's a little apparent that Shadows don't possess the same pure baseline defense capability as say, a Guardian. So I'm curious, what exactly is the role of a Defense Shadow in an Ops group? Do we main tank anything? Offtank some adds? Pull bosses off of the main tanks for a short breather?

 

What are you experiences with shadows in Ops groups? Just looking for an idea of what I am going to be doing or responsible for...and if I should just go to boring ol' dps Shadow.

 

My younger brother is an Assasin tank. We've done all the Hardmode flashpoints, plus HM 8man EV with him as the main tank. This isn't his first MMO but it's his first time tanking. Our 16man normal has a juggy MT and my brother off tanking...but there is no reason he couldn't MT, the juggy has just been doing it longer.

 

So have no fear, just make sure you are getting the best gear you can get your hands on (goes for anyone who wants to do progression raiding) and you will be able to MT or OT to your heart's content.

I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

 

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.

 

Champion pieces should be fine for HM flashpoints and normal EV/KP. These are the best ways to gear up...once you have a decent set of Columi/Tionese you can start on HM EV/KP.

 

The Champion main hands is probably one of the best weapons you will see for awhile. Make sure you are doing the dailies for the Rakata Implants and Ear piece. Also craft whatever epic upgrades you can (Biochem is amazing for the tank...as much as I hate to say it, it's the most effective/useful skill you can pick up).

 

If someone has 8k more HP than you, its because they are decked out with good gear. Most 50's start out with 12k-15k HP depending on class, once you have Columi and other good pieces, you will have 17k-23k hp (again depending on class).

I never said I felt inadequete. But it's clear I need healing more than a class wearing heavy armor with 8k more base HP than me.

 

So with that said now. I should obviously stack up on shield/defense/absorption/endurance stuff. But where can I start to do so? I'm currently wearing Champion pieces as I've been an avid pvp'er, but I have a feeling that stuff isn't going to be ideal for the raid scene.

 

 

I'm shadow tank aswell ( my guild's main tank). I got bit over 23k (selfbuffed) hp, so I would like to see som1 with 8k more than I do (I count stim as selfbuff since its unlimited couse I got biochem). I've solo tanked every single flashpoint on hardmode and both raids (on 8man) on hardmode aswell.

-B

Edited January 30, 2012 by Brumani

As a healer, I'd actually rather heal an assassin tank over a juggernaut - the assassin's self healing and mitigation make them feel a bit less spikey than the juggernaut. The assassin seems to gather aoe threat better too with the discharge being somewhat cleave-like. I'd reiterate what others have stated - check your gear and spec. Be sure to have a SHIELD generator equipped and not just a focus. Shield, absorb, and defense stats with maybe some accuracy thrown in should be your go-to stats. Best of luck!

I'm an assassin tank and do just fine. With rakata stim + BH buff I'm over 24K hp with comparable stats to our jug tank. The issue we have is lower damage reduction and possibly defense, which is countered by our higher HP.

 

I tanked/offtanked 16NMM just fine pre-patch and have done all NMM content 8 man post-patch.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Shedari