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Why are tanks being punished for progressing into harder content?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles
Why are tanks being punished for progressing into harder content?

gabigool's Avatar


gabigool
06.13.2016 , 09:49 AM | #21
I am trying to think of a time I died because the healer ran out of resources.

The only time I can even remember healers talking about resources were 3.x HM CM post cheese and late in P1 3.0 Cora when the bird would wreck people.

As stated above, killing a boss has nothing to do with "how hard a healer has to work". It's a meaningless metric. The only thing that matters is boss dead/alive. Who even looks at the efficiency of healers in groups killing difficult content?

It's like saying you aren't going to top off a tank because you don't want to overheal. It's just not how you play.

I can think of a number of +70k hits. People die on NM fights. Which do you think is more useful during enrage - a quarter % defense or 4k hp? I'll take the HP.

Not to even mention many of the seriously high DTPS fights have damage profiles that make stacking mitigation far, far worse than HP.

Bottom line is that fights without massive spikes or weird damage profiles can be tanked in 216 coms gear. So min/maxing is pointless.

For the more difficult fights, min/maxing will greatly increase odds of tank dying to spike.

Math is not required here.

UberSamoyed's Avatar


UberSamoyed
06.14.2016 , 04:18 PM | #22
I actually min/max mitigation up to a point where I think endurance levels are safe. I also have left side mk-4 ear/implants and a mk-26 relic in case more endurance is needed. But, I have yet to wear it because I haven't needed it. As for endurance, I run all 224 token gear except for the 220 B-mods on my Sin and PT (Juggs are a different animal altogether). I've found this to be a decent compromise. I'm not sure why one wouldn't gear all 224's except for B-mods. But, to each their own.

Aesthetically, it's odd that my heavy armor wearing PT tank has the lowest endurance pool in my raid group. But, we make it work...
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UberSamoyed's Avatar


UberSamoyed
06.14.2016 , 05:13 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Shrodinher View Post
Having less than 80k hp as tank is not viable in NiMs period.
I run both Juggs and PT's below 80k with no issues.
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AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.14.2016 , 05:19 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by UberSamoyed View Post
I run both Juggs and PT's below 80k with no issues.
Could not agree more. On Assassin it probably would be due to low DR, but on the others it's doable. On jugg I even go as far as to go full 224 to get the most out of scream shield and enraged defense. On pt I go for bmods tho. Can't speak for sin, haven't done NiMs on that, but on HMs bmods give enough endu.

UberSamoyed's Avatar


UberSamoyed
06.14.2016 , 11:46 PM | #25
I think the point to make here is that as a new tank, gearing for endurance over mitigation might be more beneficial. But, as you learn the mechanics and fights(and tricks), you'll realize that many of these massive spikes can be flat out avoided. Regardless, the days of gearing for hi/mid/low are gone. But, it's not a terrible idea to have some endurance gear in the inventory if you think you're getting spiked down too fast. That hasn't happened to me, but each group's composition and ability is different. There's nothing wrong with that...at all.

There is no catch-all "best" way to gear for Nim. Why? Because there's far too many human variables in play. And, in the end, it's fairly inconsequential. Nailing mechanics and avoiding "avoidable" damage is what makes a good Nim tank. Nim content can be cleared employing a variety of gearing methods. Nim content cannot be cleared unless you hit your marks.

Want to be a great Nim tank? Gear towards your group's strength's. Nail mechanics flawlessly until you're not only aware of the tank's job, but everyone else's. And, learn all the tricks. If there's any mantra to tanking, then that's it.
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Shrodinher's Avatar


Shrodinher
06.15.2016 , 12:48 AM | #26
I cleared all 4.0 NiMs cept Styrak (but it's dps/coordination/luck fight anyway) as tank, and, dunno, maybe half as healer. If I ever had sub-80k tank in group when healing, I'd just quit there and then. It's simply not viable if you want to mitigate stress. Over 8 months of 4.x, I had exactly 0 cases of a wipe due to insufficient healing. Wipes because someone got globalled or because healers were busy with improperly geared tank? Tons of em, every day.

Can you survive most of spikes with low hp? Yes you can. But truth is, getting extra 4k hp can decrease chance of dying due to bad mitigation rolls in half. When will you understand, what's going on when everyone does their job is. Not. Relevant. Do you go in nim operation and one shot every boss? If yes then stick to your gearing. Did you wipe because someone died? Was it a tank? Your gearing is probably wrong. Was it someone else? You do realize, that if healer can't heal dps, say, standing in stupid, because tank got a nasty spike and needs to be topped off, it could've been mitigated by having extra hp pool, allowing healers take a break from oh-so-precious-one-bad-roll-and-on-a-brisk-of-death tank?

Tanks' job is NOT minimizing damage taken. Tanks' job (except obvious stuff like mechanics/threat/etc) is to minimize chance of him or anyone else dying. Once cooldowns are done with, endurance is only reliable tool to do that. On one night on boss like Brontes or Bestia extra hp pool will allow you to save and salvage more **** ups than high mitigation over all raids you could've possibly had in swtor's history. Mitigation brings overall damage down, denying your healers top of charts and making your numbers sexier. Unfortunately, when you need lots, lots of healing in short amount of time, it doesn't matter if you're 224 or high endurance or maybe even full crit/power.
Moisty "Mostly" Harmless <No One Important Died>, <B a d a s s i t u d e> @ TRE.
Also known as best bunny eu
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UberSamoyed
06.15.2016 , 06:48 AM | #27
Shrodinher,

Your viewpoint sounds decidedly "Sin tanky."
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Zero_Unlimited
06.17.2016 , 09:15 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Shrodinher View Post
I cleared all 4.0 NiMs cept Styrak (but it's dps/coordination/luck fight anyway) as tank, and, dunno, maybe half as healer. If I ever had sub-80k tank in group when healing, I'd just quit there and then.
If you quit the moment you saw a sub 80k hp tank then how do you know that he wouldn't have been fine with max mitigation? Sounds like you left before you ha the chance to make that observation. Obviously biased.

ArcAngelSeth's Avatar


ArcAngelSeth
06.17.2016 , 08:55 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by gabigool View Post
Why do people still say this?

Blocking, or more precisely, mitigating damage is meaningless if you cannot survive the spikes. At some point you take 2-3 hits in a row. The damage profiles of many NM encounters - and a couple HM ones - in no way align with, as you say, min-max gear.

And, frankly, on the others it doesn't matter.

Tanks that are actually killing difficult content do not gear for highest possible mitigation -- or they wouldn't be killing it.
uhm...you're stupid. And if you're doing NiM right and having a PT eat all the spikes, mitigation should not be a problem. Tanking is the easiest part of NiM content, cause all you have to do is hold aggro and pop a cd if healers are stressed from dps standing in dumb. This whole topic is stupid, tanks are completely fine where they are. 220 Bmods give more then enough health to survive spikes, and if you're not retarded you can force mitigation.
-Dewinter/Sixxes/Nin'th- healer for life

Narudan's Avatar


Narudan
06.18.2016 , 06:53 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by ArcAngelSeth View Post
uhm...you're stupid. And if you're doing NiM right and having a PT eat all the spikes, mitigation should not be a problem. Tanking is the easiest part of NiM content, cause all you have to do is hold aggro and pop a cd if healers are stressed from dps standing in dumb. This whole topic is stupid, tanks are completely fine where they are. 220 Bmods give more then enough health to survive spikes, and if you're not retarded you can force mitigation.
What's your point? You argue the same thing, Mitigation is not a problem and B-mods are a good way to get more health which is important to survive spikes.
If you're not feeling stressed out enough when tanking NiM, try doing more damage.