Here's the following problems with HM flashpoints:

 

1. Hard modes should be completable in normal mode gear or level 50s crafted gear/mods from dailies/etc

1a. Hard modes are NOT completable (for the most part) with that kind of gear. Some bosses and trash are doable, others have such a tight enrage timer (enrage timers on 5 mans? the hell?) that even people in raid gear (136+) have trouble meeting those kinds of requirements.

2. Hard modes should have new more challenging mechanics and have more damaging attacks.

2a. They do, however the mechanics implemented are interesting but either hit way too hard for that kind of gear, or aren't illustrated clearly enough.

-> For example in TFE one boss does a stun, then immediately whirlwinds. It's basically an instant kill and it's random. You don't always have enough time to run away resulting in a death of everyone who isn't the tank. Change this to have a 2+ second wind up time after the jump or something to give the person ample time to get away

-> Or the bonus boss in TFE enrages after the second set of adds, when it takes time to focus fire, target the same mob, as a group. If you make the strong adds weaker then you can keep the enrage timer and just aoe down the mobs, though I'd increase the enrage timer by 45 seconds.

-> Or the second to last boss in TFE clearly is defeated by tanking him and dpsing him down hard, then dropping the ion cannons on the turrets to destroy the shields, then switching to the turrets to destroy them, then switching back to the boss. The boss later goes invis and you have to aoe twice in order to break it, where he will will drop stealth and stun and basically OHKO a person. Currently, you can ignore the turrets and just heal through it (though we were overgeared), however the stun cannot be trinketed out of, meaning if you **** up the aoe even a little you lose someone resulting in a wipe because you will not have the dps to beat the enrage timer. We replaced a lower geared dps with a raid geared dps with like 1700+ willpower (I have like 1638 stimmed w/ a rakata stim) and still hit the enrage timer (beating him though) at 3% with no deaths. This isn't really acceptable.

Those are just some examples off the top of my head.

3. Hard modes should give gear that helps you complete hard modes and gear up for raids.

3a. Hard modes do that, except for the aforementioned problem with the current difficulty scale for hard modes. The clear fact that most people can agree on is that hard modes are not worth it. Most people who are able to complete it are going into them with Tier 2 pvp gear, which renders the tier 1 gear either completely or partially useless. People with greens/blues/the random purple simply can't push enough dps to meet these requirements. I say this as someone with mostly raid gear with proper spec and understanding of my class, and playing with people who are equally geared in 126+ or slightly less than who also understand how to play their classes (guildies) who converse over Mumble.

4. Rewards for completing hard modes should help a player who didn't get a drop from a boss buy comparable gear.

4a. They do, however each boss gives like 1-2 tionese crystals, even the last boss in the instance, and the daily gives 1 columi commendation. What? I've done one hardmode to completion, the last two bosses of Eternity Vault, a hardmode daily, and a few starter bosses in the hard modes and I have 1 Columi commendation, 9 tionese, and 29 crystals. Pretty much all the gear that would be better than I already have, I have to spend like 56-67 columi tokens.

This is a touchy subject because on one hand you should not give gear out too fast, but on the other hand the current rewards don't justify the time investment/difficulty ratio.

 

To illustrate the way gear should be handed out:

 

Normal modes FP/Questing blues -> Hard Modes -> Ops -> Hard Ops -> Nightmare Ops

Normal 50s drop a smattering of drops (read: tiny amounts of crystals or a few tionese on the last boss) to help hard modes, hard modes help you gear up for Ops, and so forth through the example.

 

What this means is that for proper progression, hard modes must be able to be completed in mostly blues, either crafted, from quests, or from the normal modes.

Ops must be able to be completed in gear from hard modes, etc.

 

Now, the ops is not the problem. The problem is Hard modes. Frequently the people going into them are using the easy to obtain tier 2 pvp gear, since all your losing is (in the scheme of things) a few percent throughput by having expertise instead of more willpower or crit or whatever. I've beaten soa on normal mode with a group all in tier 2 pvp gear just fine. Even Bonethrasher. It's not like wow where pvp gear is total **** in pve encounters.

 

That does not mean to nerf the obtaining of pvp gear because the current model is just fine. I'm trying to illustrate the current issues with how hard modes are tuned right now.

 

In before someone comes in trolling going "hard modes are just fine how they are, durp herp don't make this like wow!" trying to red herring the issue at hand.

Agree with the gear problem, they don't give much are require gear better than what they give. However, I like them very much in their mechanics. Edited January 9, 2012 by Dragonbgone

Yeah, what bugs me most is the fact that everyone seems to wear mostly PvP tier 2 during hard modes. I don't like PvPing with my PvE healer, and I can't see why I should be forced to farm warzones for days in order to have viable gear for a completely different activity.

 

The problem is not with the PvP gear itself, but it's the fact that PvE tier 1 is ridiculously overpriced in terms of commendations. I don't know what Bioware tried to do there, but I'm afraid it didn't work well.

It is pretty bizarre that the easiest way to gear is through PvP at the moment. The free tier 2 PvP gear you get through dailies is better than the tier 1 you get from hardmodes!

 

Normal mode Operations are easier than hardmodes and offer same quality loot at greater quantities.

Revan is bugged in the foundry, otherwise its easy,

 

Battle for ilum is difficult,

 

Bulwark in directive 7 is a gear check and could use a slight nerf on the enrage timer,

 

All other hardmodes are very doable without great gear, its a simple l2p... so l2p

Revan is bugged in the foundry, otherwise its easy,

 

Battle for ilum is difficult,

 

Bulwark in directive 7 is a gear check and could use a slight nerf on the enrage timer,

 

All other hardmodes are very doable without great gear, its a simple l2p... so l2p

 

The last boss of Boarding Party is actually very difficult if your group doesn't already have some decent gear (aka PvP Tier 2).

Cleared everything on HM. Some things are buggy (ie Revan one shotting people with lightning) but you can still do it. Bulwark is a gear check/dps race. That stupid BH in Illum is rough but its all about controlling the 4 adds he spawns. Everything currently in the game can be completed. It just takes work and a little communication. My advice is find a good guild and run with them. That will make the teamwork easier.

 

Second, learn your character and the encounters. Every time new dungeons/flashpoints/runs come out in any MMO we get people crying bout how hard they are, demanding a nerf. Games are supposed to be a challenge. If they weren't, we wouldnt play. Others have cleared it. You can do it as well. Practice, learn, apply. Simple stuff.

 

Last time I checked no one wrote Nintendo and cried when they died countless times in Super Mario. Don't ruin the game for other people just beacuse you fail.

Get out of the WoW mindset. That is what is making the paradigm seem so foreign to you. Heroics are NOT for gearing up for Operations. Though I agree we could use a better spread.

 

Difficulty in this game really seems to go like this currently,

 

Level 50 Flashpoints -> Entry 8 mans normal mode Operations -> Heroics (meant for raiders to continue gearing up in between raids) -> Hard Modes -> Nightmare Modes.

 

Could we use SOME of the Heroics as gear up for Ops? Yes. Should all be. No. I, personally, love challenge, and give kudos to Bioware for including it.

 

It (some Heroics being HARD) gives players seeking a challenge something to do while waiting a week in between Operations. But I do have ideas for a better spread.

 

Ideally all Heroic versions of pre 50 Flashpoints should be gear up Flashpoints, I.E those become your gear up instances again.

 

Then all Hardmode versions of 50 Flashpoints, should be for half tier upping your Operations gear. I.E. these require some gear to do

 

 

 

 

 

Alexis

*smiles*

Edited January 9, 2012 by Caille

Here's the following problems with HM flashpoints:

 

1. Hard modes should be completable in normal mode gear or level 50s crafted gear/mods from dailies/etc

1a. Hard modes are NOT completable (for the most part) with that kind of gear. Some bosses and trash are doable, others have such a tight enrage timer (enrage timers on 5 mans? the hell?) that even people in raid gear (136+) have trouble meeting those kinds of requirements.

 

I stopped reading after this. I started hardmodes with half of my gear in corellia blue mods and the other half in daily commendation mods and rarely had issues meeting the enrage timers and now I'm in full daily gear/columi/rakata crafted gear and it's even easier. They are definitely doable in a full set of mods from dailies. If you are having trouble in full daily gear I would suggest looking at your spec/rotation instead of your gear.

The last boss of Boarding Party is actually very difficult if your group doesn't already have some decent gear (aka PvP Tier 2).

 

Cleared it tonight with no one in my party having any pvp gear, was simply a learn to pop relics + maximize DPS encounter. The foundry on the other hand . . . made it to revan after HK bugged 5 times and had to quit because of revan being even buggier.

 

EDIT the tank had 1 piece of PvP gear.

Some of them are most certainly buggy.

 

This is a list of grievances I have against HM flashpoints.

 

Vokk in Hardmode Esseles has his double-saber-throw. If both of the throws hit the same target, it is nearly impossible to save that target. This attack should never hit the same target twice in one channel unless they are the only target visible.

 

Bulwark in Hardmode Directive 7 does an ability named "Bulwark Blast" that targets a spot on the ground and then hits it with a very powerful attack. It appears to be bugged, as the location it lands is never visible beforehand. This makes the fight very nearly impossible. The only hope to avoid it is to randomly run around the entire fight.

 

Several fights where the boss does an aoe around themselves or has some other mechanic to stop melee from attacking have very short enrage timers, making a group that is melee-heavy have far more difficulty than the boss seems to be meant to have (often these bosses only drop Tionese crystals).

 

Other than those issues, hardmode flashpoints were very easily completable with a group comprised of 2 melee dps, one melee tank, and a trooper healer the moment we hit 50 with little to no gear upgrades. We've been easily farming them for a week and we are a casual guild on an RP server.

 

Hardmode flashpoints have a few issues that need addressing, but are very, VERY far from being "overtuned".

 

EDIT: I'd also like to add that Hardmode Mentor is easily the most fun fight I've ever seen in any game, and living proof that enrage timers are not the only way to make an encounter a challenge.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Grubfist

Bulwark blast always hits the center of the room. Stand on the edges (preferably under the shield generators) and you will never be hit by it.

I don't know what is up with this notion that you need PvP gear to do HM FPs. It's just wrong.

 

When I started doing HMs, I had 0 PvP pieces. My enhancements were purple (I was artifice at the time) and my armor was modded to 50. My implants were 40, ear piece 47, green relics and a 50 modded light saber. The people I grouped with were the same.

 

Now guess what? We steam rolled all of the HM FPs.

 

Player skill >>>> gear when it comes to these spaces.

 

If you are running into problems with the enrage timers, it is one or more of the following: 1) your DPSers are not playing their class optimally (rotation or talents); 2) your DPSers have not upgraded their gear appropiately (and by this I mean, stuck in lv 40 gear, that won't cut it); 3) you have stacked classes and do not have enough buffs.

 

At first I thought they were tuned a bit high. But after I played with a variety of DPSers I realized it was a L2play issue. The players who we struggled with content were, for whatever reason, not playing optimally. When I had success? The DPS knew their classes and what they were doing.

 

This will fix over time when more theory crafting comes in. But the spaces are NOT over tuned.

The difficulty is fine but rewards are not. Or rewards are fine but difficulty is not.

 

ATM i gave up on HMs and will just wait a week to start operations cause HMs are not worth the trouble *shrug*

 

And i can finish them, did them with PUGs mostly.

Edited January 9, 2012 by GrandMike

I'm terrible at math and I hate theorycrafting. That doesn't mean I have to be a bad dps. I've had no problem pulling my weight and beating enrage timers by simply looking at my skill points and how they mesh, and using abilities that seem obvious to use. (example, I get a proc for x ability, I use it, etc.)

(enrage timers on 5 mans? the hell?)

Since I'm not 50 and haven't done any hard modes, I can not offer any opinion...

 

 

... but this comment made me giggle

 

 

I don't know what is up with this notion that you need PvP gear to do HM FPs. It's just wrong.

And that's good news. I refuse to PVP for my PVE gear.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Avanaco

Since I'm not 50 and haven't done any hard modes, I can not offer any opinion...

 

 

... but this comment made me giggle

 

Sorry, it's a layover.

Get out of the WoW mindset. That is what is making the paradigm seem so foreign to you. Heroics are NOT for gearing up for Operations. Though I agree we could use a better spread.

 

Difficulty in this game really seems to go like this currently,

 

Level 50 Flashpoints -> Entry 8 mans normal mode Operations -> Heroics (meant for raiders to continue gearing up in between raids) -> Hard Modes -> Nightmare Modes.

 

Nope you're wrong. 8 man ops drop tier 2 gear on the bosses.

Nope you're wrong. 8 man ops drop tier 2 gear on the bosses.

 

As do hardmode end bosses.

 

I'd say daily-repeatable flashpoints that can grant you tier 1 (to get your 2 and 4pieces) from mid-flashpoint bosses, and ops-drop (tier 2) pieces from the end bosses (that you can do 7 more times per week than ops bosses dropping the same quality gear) is indeed a spot where you would be doing this in between your ops at the same difficulty.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Grubfist

As do hardmode end bosses.

 

Yes....because Hard modes are meant to gear up for ops.

 

That is how the rewards are set up.

 

The last boss of a hard mode drops epic crafting items too.

 

This is almost the same as wow, minus the tier 2 chest piece drop. Instead in wow you generally get a nice weapon and/or more commendations.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Gvaz

Yes....because Hard modes are meant to gear up for ops.

 

That is how the rewards are set up.

 

The last boss of a hard mode drops epic crafting items too.

 

This is almost the same as wow, minus the tier 2 chest piece drop. Instead in wow you generally get a nice weapon and/or more commendations.

 

So 7 tries at the same quality of gear as you get 1 chance at in ops is "meant to be gearing for ops".

 

So you "gear for ops" by getting all of the gear that it drops before you kill its bosses?

 

What?

 

I'm sorry, but you're spouting nonsense. And nearly every post in this thread has seemed to agree on that.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Grubfist

So 7 tries at the same quality of gear as you get 1 chance at in ops is "meant to be gearing for ops".

 

So you "gear for ops" by getting all of the gear that it drops before you kill its bosses?

 

What?

 

No, you do normals to get gear to complete hard modes, you do hard modes to get gear to complete ops and make hard modes easier, you do ops to get the gear to complete hard mode ops, and do hard mode ops to complete nightmare ops to make nightmare ops easier

 

Normals = 50 blues/daily purple mods/etc

hard mode FP = tier 1 gear with a chance at tier 2

ops = tier 2 and more commendations

hard ops = tier 3

nightmare ops = tier 3 drops more often

 

This is not something I think should happen, this is how it actually works

 

And no one does nightmare ops unless everyone's in almost all rakata gear already

Edited January 9, 2012 by Gvaz

No, you do normals to get gear to complete hard modes, you do hard modes to get gear to complete ops and make hard modes easier, you do ops to get the gear to complete hard mode ops, and do hard mode ops to complete nightmare ops to make nightmare ops easier

 

Normals = 50 blues/daily purple mods/etc

hard mode FP = tier 1 gear with a chance at tier 2

ops = tier 2 and more commendations

hard ops = tier 3

nightmare ops = tier 3 drops more often

 

This is not something I think should happen, this is how it actually works

 

And no one does nightmare ops unless everyone's in almost all rakata gear already

 

You get more chances at tier 2 loot from doing hardmode 4-mans every day than you have doing regular 8-mans every week.

 

How is that the "pre-ops" position?

 

I'm not following.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Grubfist

You get more chances at tier 2 loot from doing hardmode 4-mans every day than you have doing regular 8-mans every week.

 

How is that the "pre-ops" position?

 

I'm not following.

 

Chances at loot does not equate to getting said loot.

There are 6 hardmode flashpoints in the game. Each day, you can easily do all 6. Each of those 6 guarantees one tier 2 (Columi) piece of loot. Each day.

 

You get 42 guaranteed pieces of Columi (tier 2 ops gear) per week from hardmode flashpoints.