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Sentinels - Top 3 Questions


KeyboardNinja

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First off, please accept my apologies for being a day late on this post. I was traveling this entire week, and the final deadline conflicted unfortunately with a certain airplane. :-( In any case, here we are!

 

PvP

 

Watchman/Annihilation currently suffers from a very long ramp-up time and is severely punished for any downtime due to the Merciless/Annihilate stacking buff. This ramp-up makes the spec nearly unconscionable in competitive PvP, and the downtime penalties cause severe issues in both PvP and certain PvE encounters (such as Titan 6 or Dread Guard). Would it be possible to improve the ramp-up and downtime penalties in this area? Perhaps by talenting Valorous Call/Frenzy to build Merciless/Annihilate stacks. Another idea would be to decrement Merciless/Annihilate stacks upon expiry rather than removing them entirely.

 

PvE

 

While Focus/Rage has excellent AoE DPS and on-demand burst, it falls significantly behind in terms of single-target DPS. In fact, dummy parses in the hands of skilled and geared players show a roughly 9% disparity between Focus/Rage and the other two specs on a single-target fight. This represents an unacceptable liability for most serious progression groups, as the majority of DPS pressure in current content comes in the form of hard enrage timers in single-target encounters. Despite this, the community is concerned that an increase to single-target DPS might make Focus/Rage the "go to" spec for sentinels/marauders. What are the design goals for Focus/Rage in PvE? Is the spec currently meeting those goals? If low single-target DPS is indeed the balancing factor for this spec, how is this justified with the current PvE design focus on single-target bosses?

 

All

 

Centering/Fury does not build for the duration of Zen/Berserk, Inspiration/Bloodthirst or Transcendence/Predation. This is a somewhat odd design decision since sentinels/marauders are penalized significantly when these raid buffs are used. This is a noticeable DPS loss for Watchman/Annihilation and Combat/Carnage, but it is absolutely devastating for Focus/Rage as their rotation is actually dependent on consistently building Centering/Fury (due to the Singularity/Shockwave mechanic). As such, most Focus/Rage sentinels/marauders actually click off the Inspiration/Bloodthirst buff when another sentinel/marauder provides it. No other DPS class is handicapped in this fashion. What is the design rationale for suppressing Centering/Fury build up during these buffs? Could this restriction be removed (especially when *another* sentinel/marauder has supplied the raid buff)?

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Why would you want to play as Watchmen in PVP? Every saber form speaks for themselves what those are best at, we do not need three skill trees that are equivalent in PVE/PVP and single target/AOE. It is more interresting that you switch forms during operations to pick that suits the bossfight and/or group composition best. What I would appreciate though if I could save my skill tree and skill bar settings so that I can switch quickly. The current solution is simply wasting the players' time for no reason.

 

I agree on the weak points of Watchmen in PVE, already suggested the reducing stacks of Merciless months ago. BTW, it is funny to call a slash Merciless whereas a Jedi should always be merciful...

 

At first glance, the Inspiration issue is valid, but then again, it is all about timing your skills properly and co-ordinate with the other sentinel(s).

 

As for increasing Focus single target DPS, I disagree. 10% is nothing if you think of the extreme AOE damage. Most bossfights include a lot of adds and the more DPS you have with good AOE damage, the sooner those go down, the less healing is needed and the sooner every DPS can turn back to the boss again. On the contrary, my problem is that for most bossfights it is best to go for the Focus spec already, I am bored of it, but it is more efficient than the elegant and exciting Watchmen that provides the group with healing and puts damage reduction on the boss. I would make the difference even more significant, Focus needs more AOE at the cost of single target, Combat needs more single target DPS, Watchmen needs more raidwide benefit so that I am forced to pick whichever is needed most.

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The reason focus is so op in pvp right now is BECAUSE they have already buffed the single target dmg for pve, a aoe spec shouldn't ever be on par with a single target dmg spec for single target dmg because that would make it overpowered..
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The reason focus is so op in pvp right now is BECAUSE they have already buffed the single target dmg for pve, a aoe spec shouldn't ever be on par with a single target dmg spec for single target dmg because that would make it overpowered..

 

Rage spec is not overpowered. Most teams on Pot5 only run 1-2 rage spec for ranked. Rage spec destroys some teams in non-ranked WZs, but 1 marksman sniper can shut out a rage spec player easily.

Edited by TheCourier-
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Why would you want to play as Watchmen in PVP? Every saber form speaks for themselves what those are best at, we do not need three skill trees that are equivalent in PVE/PVP and single target/AOE. It is more interresting that you switch forms during operations to pick that suits the bossfight and/or group composition best. What I would appreciate though if I could save my skill tree and skill bar settings so that I can switch quickly. The current solution is simply wasting the players' time for no reason.

 

Watchman spec used to be outstanding at PVP. Bioware nerfing watchman spec was a mistake that they made.

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Why don't just make dots aoe? Thats working pretty well for Slingers/Snipers.

Beacause I don't really see the reason of having single target dot's.

 

About Merciless, what if remove those stacks, and mike it like..."If u hit doted target, u make X more damgae"

 

Lets say, when target has only 1 dot - you hit 10% harder, when target has 2 dots (aoe + Cauterize) u make 20% more damage.

Edited by Whiteprince
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At first glance, the Inspiration issue is valid, but then again, it is all about timing your skills properly and co-ordinate with the other sentinel(s).

 

Clearly you don't play Focus in PvE. No amount of timing fixes the fact that your rotation is essentially suspended and resource starved for fifteen seconds. Pre-2.0, this problem was addressed by building stacks using Stasis. Now, that really isn't an option, and so you basically lose an entire Force Sweep cycle, which is a massive DPS loss.

 

As for increasing Focus single target DPS, I disagree. 10% is nothing if you think of the extreme AOE damage. Most bossfights include a lot of adds and the more DPS you have with good AOE damage, the sooner those go down, the less healing is needed and the sooner every DPS can turn back to the boss again. On the contrary, my problem is that for most bossfights it is best to go for the Focus spec already, I am bored of it, but it is more efficient than the elegant and exciting Watchmen that provides the group with healing and puts damage reduction on the boss. I would make the difference even more significant, Focus needs more AOE at the cost of single target, Combat needs more single target DPS, Watchmen needs more raidwide benefit so that I am forced to pick whichever is needed most.

 

What "extreme AoE damage"? I can think of one boss with consistent AoE (Dash'roode) and two bosses where large add packs play an important role (Writhing Horror and Titan 6). Even counting all three as fights where Focus excels, that's still the extreme minority of PvE encounters.

 

10% is a lot of damage. 10% is worth selling your soul for in certain fights (eg TfB NiM).

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Well, here's my questions:

 

1. Merciless needs to be up full time, but with some of your current boss lineups it's a problem and gimps DPS, since Watchman do more damage when reaching a full Merciless stack. Not that I have a hard time keeping it up, there's a large amount of players who do suffer from this. Will there be a change to this in the future? My own suggestion is to drop the CD to 6 seconds (like a full stack of Merciless), giving Merciless a small damage boost to the next Merciless cast in the next 7 seconds or something.

 

2. Any possible tanking builds for a Sentinel? :p DPS waiting queues are annoying, gunslingers and sentinels have no choice but to wait for an unknown amount of time (it's why I don't even queue for flashpoints anymore and raid with the guild at set times). I mean, two lightsabers can deflect stuff too right? :p (being creative, Kreia could control lightsabers in KOTOR, maybe an example..? :p)

 

3. The beloved Gunslinger class currently has a mainstat boosting talent, which is of course not present on a Sentinel. Can we ever expect this talent?

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Rage spec is not overpowered. Most teams on Pot5 only run 1-2 rage spec for ranked. Rage spec destroys some teams in non-ranked WZs, but 1 marksman sniper can shut out a rage spec player easily.

 

Lets be fair here: there are 14 DPS specs in the game- 18 if you count the right trees as two specs. The fact that 1 of those specs is represented with 1 or 2 players in almost every ranked comp probably suggests that it's a little OP.

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Clearly you don't play Focus in PvE. No amount of timing fixes the fact that your rotation is essentially suspended and resource starved for fifteen seconds. Pre-2.0, this problem was addressed by building stacks using Stasis. Now, that really isn't an option, and so you basically lose an entire Force Sweep cycle, which is a massive DPS loss.

 

What "extreme AoE damage"? I can think of one boss with consistent AoE (Dash'roode) and two bosses where large add packs play an important role (Writhing Horror and Titan 6). Even counting all three as fights where Focus excels, that's still the extreme minority of PvE encounters.

 

10% is a lot of damage. 10% is worth selling your soul for in certain fights (eg TfB NiM).

 

 

Oh, I play Focus spec most of the times, cleared S&V HM first week and I was top DPS in the group. You do not seem to know how to work in team with your fellow sentinel(s). Before he pops Inspiration, you should have 30 stacks of Centering, that way for the duration of Inspiration, you will have 3 buffed Force Sweeps (2nd is buffed with Force Exhaustion, 3rd is buffed by your Valorous Call + Zen). By the time 3rd Force Sweep round is over, you will have have FE available again and you can start building stacks of Centering. It is all about co-ordinating Inspiration.

 

Depending on the DPS group setup, you'd better go Focus for TFB #1 and #3, S&V #1-#3. S&V #4-#5 is not a must, but still makes more sense.

 

10% is nothing. Remember, you have to work as a team and every DPS needs to pick the skill tree that suits the bossfight best (at least in nigthmare mode). As a Sentinel, you have to ask yourself what is top priority: killing adds quickly (Focus), doing spike damage (Combat) or help survival (Watchmen). It would not make sense if every saber form had same single target damage.

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Oh, I play Focus spec most of the times, cleared S&V HM first week and I was top DPS in the group. You do not seem to know how to work in team with your fellow sentinel(s). Before he pops Inspiration, you should have 30 stacks of Centering, that way for the duration of Inspiration, you will have 3 buffed Force Sweeps (2nd is buffed with Force Exhaustion, 3rd is buffed by your Valorous Call + Zen). By the time 3rd Force Sweep round is over, you will have have FE available again and you can start building stacks of Centering. It is all about co-ordinating Inspiration.

 

Depending on the DPS group setup, you'd better go Focus for TFB #1 and #3, S&V #1-#3. S&V #4-#5 is not a must, but still makes more sense.

 

10% is nothing. Remember, you have to work as a team and every DPS needs to pick the skill tree that suits the bossfight best (at least in nigthmare mode). As a Sentinel, you have to ask yourself what is top priority: killing adds quickly (Focus), doing spike damage (Combat) or help survival (Watchmen). It would not make sense if every saber form had same single target damage.

 

Sorry but 10% is absolutely huge in the current nightmare modes, i have no idea how you can say anything else if you have done tfb and s&v in nightmare..

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First off, please accept my apologies for being a day late on this post. I was traveling this entire week, and the final deadline conflicted unfortunately with a certain airplane. :-( In any case, here we are!

 

PvP

 

Watchman/Annihilation currently suffers from a very long ramp-up time and is severely punished for any downtime due to the Merciless/Annihilate stacking buff. This ramp-up makes the spec nearly unconscionable in competitive PvP, and the downtime penalties cause severe issues in both PvP and certain PvE encounters (such as Titan 6 or Dread Guard). Would it be possible to improve the ramp-up and downtime penalties in this area? Perhaps by talenting Valorous Call/Frenzy to build Merciless/Annihilate stacks. Another idea would be to decrement Merciless/Annihilate stacks upon expiry rather than removing them entirely.

 

PvE

 

While Focus/Rage has excellent AoE DPS and on-demand burst, it falls significantly behind in terms of single-target DPS. In fact, dummy parses in the hands of skilled and geared players show a roughly 9% disparity between Focus/Rage and the other two specs on a single-target fight. This represents an unacceptable liability for most serious progression groups, as the majority of DPS pressure in current content comes in the form of hard enrage timers in single-target encounters. Despite this, the community is concerned that an increase to single-target DPS might make Focus/Rage the "go to" spec for sentinels/marauders. What are the design goals for Focus/Rage in PvE? Is the spec currently meeting those goals? If low single-target DPS is indeed the balancing factor for this spec, how is this justified with the current PvE design focus on single-target bosses?

 

All

 

Centering/Fury does not build for the duration of Zen/Berserk, Inspiration/Bloodthirst or Transcendence/Predation. This is a somewhat odd design decision since sentinels/marauders are penalized significantly when these raid buffs are used. This is a noticeable DPS loss for Watchman/Annihilation and Combat/Carnage, but it is absolutely devastating for Focus/Rage as their rotation is actually dependent on consistently building Centering/Fury (due to the Singularity/Shockwave mechanic). As such, most Focus/Rage sentinels/marauders actually click off the Inspiration/Bloodthirst buff when another sentinel/marauder provides it. No other DPS class is handicapped in this fashion. What is the design rationale for suppressing Centering/Fury build up during these buffs? Could this restriction be removed (especially when *another* sentinel/marauder has supplied the raid buff)?

 

These look good, I will pass them on to the Combat team and work on getting answers back to you guys hopefully sometime this week!

 

-eric

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Rage spec is not overpowered. Most teams on Pot5 only run 1-2 rage spec for ranked. Rage spec destroys some teams in non-ranked WZs, but 1 marksman sniper can shut out a rage spec player easily.

 

This is a true statement. Rage/Focus performs a certain task (AOE healing pressure) in ranked play. It can be mitigated easily in several ways and Bioware reducing damage would negate it's purpose. If you want to argue Focus/Rage's purpose or intent - that's a different discussion.

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Oh, I play Focus spec most of the times, cleared S&V HM first week and I was top DPS in the group. You do not seem to know how to work in team with your fellow sentinel(s). Before he pops Inspiration, you should have 30 stacks of Centering, that way for the duration of Inspiration, you will have 3 buffed Force Sweeps (2nd is buffed with Force Exhaustion, 3rd is buffed by your Valorous Call + Zen). By the time 3rd Force Sweep round is over, you will have have FE available again and you can start building stacks of Centering. It is all about co-ordinating Inspiration.

 

First Inspiration usually comes right off the bat. Unless you pre-center in Combat spec, you're not going to open with 30 stacks without using Valorous. If an up-front Inspiration is absolutely necessary, you are certainly free to play the respec trick right before the fight. It's still not great, but it should work. Late in a fight though, you're going to need to plan that Valorous very carefully, and the thing is that not all sentinel specs build Centering at the same rate, so your fellow sentinel will be at the ideal point to pop Inspiration as much as 10-12 seconds before (or after) you're ready for it. Either one of you delaying is a significant DPS loss (though it's worse for the Focus sentinel). Again, in Nightmare Mode, you need every iota of DPS. It sounds stupid, but delaying a Zen (or even worse, an Inspiration), even by a few seconds, is potentially wipe-inducing.

 

The point is that none of this matters if Centering built during Inspiration and Transcendence. Sentinels then no longer step on each other. Additionally, this allows the Focus sentinel to be the one to pop Inspiration if necessary, which is now *categorically* impossible (even with your 30 stacks into Valorous method).

 

Depending on the DPS group setup, you'd better go Focus for TFB #1 and #3, S&V #1-#3. S&V #4-#5 is not a must, but still makes more sense.

 

Have you tried to Force Sweep a datacore recently? My group has a sentinel who's primary spec is Focus. They run it for literally every boss…except for Operator IX. They stay in Focus for 16 man, but it's just not possible in 8 man.

 

10% is nothing. Remember, you have to work as a team and every DPS needs to pick the skill tree that suits the bossfight best (at least in nigthmare mode). As a Sentinel, you have to ask yourself what is top priority: killing adds quickly (Focus), doing spike damage (Combat) or help survival (Watchmen). It would not make sense if every saber form had same single target damage.

 

I would have sacrificed a whole flock of baby goats for an extra 10% DPS from *any* of our damage dealers while we were progressing on Nightmare Dread Guard. Heck, I would have made that sacrifice for 10% more DPS from either of our *tanks*. 10% is an enormous jump.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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I would have sacrificed a whole flock of baby goats for an extra 10% DPS from *any* of our damage dealers while we were progressing on Nightmare Dread Guard. Heck, I would have made that sacrifice for 10% more DPS from either of our *tanks*. 10% is an enormous jump.

 

This might* make a difference if you are considering your top dps gaining 10% (which a mar/sent should be on top or pretty close) since 10% of say 2600 is 260, which is quite a jump for a single person's numbers. But 10% on say a tank dps... I doubt that would make a huge difference.

 

But that is also NOT an AOE fight... so if someone is trying to be the best player for their team, then they would be trying to do the best single target damage. I don't think it is unfair to have a spec that excels at AOE. Last round this might have been helpful on Kephass in EC (1 fight out of 4 is not bad for an all dps class with 3 spec's). In this round there are a decent number of ADD fights, so again, I don't think it is unfair to the spec to have a few fights that it excels at. If you are trying to be the best, you are going to switch inbetween fights.

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This might* make a difference if you are considering your top dps gaining 10% (which a mar/sent should be on top or pretty close) since 10% of say 2600 is 260, which is quite a jump for a single person's numbers. But 10% on say a tank dps... I doubt that would make a huge difference.

 

10% on either of our tanks would be another 120 DPS. That's 52800 damage over the course of the entire DG fight, which is 4% of Kel'sara's pre-nerf HP. When your raid group is literally to the point of leveling agents to get Ambrosia Orbs, killing Nightmare Pilgrim with the lockout debuff and dropping Cybertech grenades at scripted points, 120 DPS sounds like gold.

 

But that is also NOT an AOE fight... so if someone is trying to be the best player for their team, then they would be trying to do the best single target damage. I don't think it is unfair to have a spec that excels at AOE. Last round this might have been helpful on Kephass in EC (1 fight out of 4 is not bad for an all dps class with 3 spec's). In this round there are a decent number of ADD fights, so again, I don't think it is unfair to the spec to have a few fights that it excels at. If you are trying to be the best, you are going to switch inbetween fights.

 

There are very, very few fights where AoE seriously matters in the current endgame. Dash'roode is basically the only one. For the other fights, a couple of XS Flyby drops is enough to nuke the adds without any real attention. I wouldn't mind Focus being behind in the single-target DPS department if the content design emphasized AoE burst moments as much as it emphasizes single-target sustained DPS. This isn't the case though, which is why I feel that Focus isn't in a particularly good place w.r.t. PvE.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Problem is tho that if they give it an outright damage buff then people will call for nerfs(not that they aren't already) they already added force lash which helps a bit sure, but what else could they possibly add to help out? Make MS give centering like TST and lower smash CD as well? That would help allittle without actually increasing damage sure, but not by much
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Problem is tho that if they give it an outright damage buff then people will call for nerfs(not that they aren't already) they already added force lash which helps a bit sure, but what else could they possibly add to help out? Make MS give centering like TST and lower smash CD as well? That would help allittle without actually increasing damage sure, but not by much

 

I think there are a couple ways to do it. Increasing the damage of Force Lash is one way, but a bit heavy-handed. Reducing the CD on Master Strike (or building a proc to the same effect) I think is a fairly solid way, since that additionally increases the average time between Force Sweeps (lowering AoE DPS by a slight amount). A talent to increase the damage dealt by Blade Storm might not be a bad approach, but it would result in a significant buff to burst, which is perhaps not desirable.

 

Also, despite my protestations, I do agree that buffing the ST damage of Focus spec is really dangerous, because it becomes a spec that does the most ST and AoE DPS and has the best defensive CDs. The obvious counter here is the fact that Guardian Focus does almost exactly as much DPS as Guardian Vig. If Guardians get an AoE spec which does as much ST damage as their ST spec, then why do Sentinels get gimped in this area?

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I think there are a couple ways to do it. Increasing the damage of Force Lash is one way, but a bit heavy-handed. Reducing the CD on Master Strike (or building a proc to the same effect) I think is a fairly solid way, since that additionally increases the average time between Force Sweeps (lowering AoE DPS by a slight amount). A talent to increase the damage dealt by Blade Storm might not be a bad approach, but it would result in a significant buff to burst, which is perhaps not desirable.

 

Also, despite my protestations, I do agree that buffing the ST damage of Focus spec is really dangerous, because it becomes a spec that does the most ST and AoE DPS and has the best defensive CDs. The obvious counter here is the fact that Guardian Focus does almost exactly as much DPS as Guardian Vig. If Guardians get an AoE spec which does as much ST damage as their ST spec, then why do Sentinels get gimped in this area?

 

 

That seems more like an argument for buffing Vig over buffing focus. As you say, a 10% boost to ST damage can only make it even more OP in PVP, and in general would serve to even further deter watchman use. I'll also note that with a few exceptions the AoE Sniper/Gunslinger tree also falls pretty far behind their single target damage specs.

 

Giving up single target damage is the price you pay for getting awesome AoE damage. It'd be another matter entirely if Focus was the only good DPS spec, but sentinels have 3 of them, and there ARE the odd fights where Focus shines even in PVE while it's pretty much the goto spec in PVP.

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It may not be in the top 3 questions but I would like to know if Bioware plans on making combat rotation more fluid again and/or make the burst phases more controlable/predictable. It feels like focus spec before the first buff which made the rotation much more fluid.
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