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Ninja looting now acceptable?


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They could be needing for their alts or offspec.

 

This is tricky and people have different opinions. I can understand that one wants to "not be a hindrance" to the run, but really, nearly everyone has alts. Some have lots of them. If we all rolled for our alts then what? It's the same as we all Need on everything. What about people who may be playing on their only character and the gear is an upgrade for them? They get less of a chance because they can't run as many ops per week.

 

Like I said, people have different opinions about rolling for alts. Mine personally is that you should ask first or it's a Greed roll. And like others have said, asking about loot rolls before the FP/ Op starts is best. I had someone Need on orange gear for a companion in a FP recently too (they waited for everyone else to roll first) but no one cared, so there was no point making a fuss over it.

 

EDIT: Also, if you join with your strongest character and are wanting to roll for alts, how can anyone REALLY tell the difference between someone like you, and just some loot whore who doesn't need it for an alt? They may decide not to believe you and not let you roll since your toon has better gear.

Edited by Kufuffelupagus
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They could be needing for their alts or offspec.

 

I do S&V runs just to get a chance at UW tokens and mainhand. And when I join them, I join with my strongest character as I don't want to be a hinderance or have to be carried if I join with a toon that's a fresh 55 and needs the gear. And since i have participated in the run and contributed to the kills at least as much as everyone else - doesn't it stand to reason that I have a legitimate roll on tokens? Even more since I'm rolling on UW armor and mainhand tokens only while passing Arkanian tokens and Arkanian-tier gear.

 

Sorry but you are the type of person I don't want in my runs, and this attitude of 'I'll roll need on everything because one of my alts can use' is why I dislike the whole legacy gear mod shuffle.

 

This is why I also tend to only run a few Operations a week with a leader I know who uses master-looter with a Mainspec Need all other Greed ruleset (sometimes with a geared character performing one role while rolling for another, but which role they are rolling for is agreed before the run starts).

 

And don't even get me started on all the players that do the need on everything to over-gear their alts only to perform abysmally compared to their gear.

 

I can't tell you how many I've gotten in groups who can screw up even easy content like the Tactical FPs in their 72 / 78 gear sets as they have no clue how to actually play the game.

 

But then again this has become a game where it is much more important to have top tier gear to do easy SM content to cover up how bad the average player is at the game.

 

I'd love to see how many players would actually be able to achieve top tier gear if they had to beat each tier of content on the actual character (e.g. no farming SM / easy weeklies for comms to buy gear two or three tiers over the content being played, no shuffling mods to alts, and no crafting top tier stuff).

 

If you wanted 72 or 78 or whatever gear and I was running the game, your character would have to beat content tuned for the gear just below to obtain that gear.

Edited by DawnAskham
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Let me ask you would you rather I tanked your operation for you on a 72/78 geared toon and asked to roll on 72 aim gear/tokens or would you rather I showed up on a 66/69 geared bountyhunter with a 58 weapon and tried to tank in that?

 

That said I do usually say when I jon a pug something like "hey Im tanking this, but I want to roll dps gear/healer cunning gear/whatever as my main spec ok?"

 

I normally get people complain anyhow cos some people just insist on looking gift horses in the mouth.

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Let me ask you would you rather I tanked your operation for you on a 72/78 geared toon and asked to roll on 72 aim gear/tokens or would you rather I showed up on a 66/69 geared bountyhunter with a 58 weapon and tried to tank in that?

 

That said I do usually say when I jon a pug something like "hey Im tanking this, but I want to roll dps gear/healer cunning gear/whatever as my main spec ok?"

 

I normally get people complain anyhow cos some people just insist on looking gift horses in the mouth.

 

Of course people would complain. Your offer is tantamount to blackmail. "Hey kids, want an experienced, well-geared tank to show you how to steamroll this content? You do? Cool! NOW GIVE ME YOUR UPGRADES."

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They could be needing for their alts or offspec.

 

I do S&V runs just to get a chance at UW tokens and mainhand. And when I join them, I join with my strongest character as I don't want to be a hinderance or have to be carried if I join with a toon that's a fresh 55 and needs the gear. And since i have participated in the run and contributed to the kills at least as much as everyone else - doesn't it stand to reason that I have a legitimate roll on tokens? Even more since I'm rolling on UW armor and mainhand tokens only while passing Arkanian tokens and Arkanian-tier gear.

 

Well my best friend .... If you are doing this than you are one of the reasons I hate pugging sometimes. No your rolls are not legitimate and you should at least ask in opschat about it. The reasons for this is that you can NOT need for alts or offspec. You have very very neat button for that called 'greed' ;-)

If you want to gearup alts than bring your alt.

 

Also wth would you think you are hinderance if you bring a lower geared toon? I recognise your forumname as at least a quite respectable player. Meaning you should be able to easily pull more than your weight in a char with 156 rating (yes ..... that low). 156 is the REQUIREMENT for DF SM. If you have more than that you go an extra mile for the group. You can always ask to be rewarded for it but blindly ninja looting as you are doing is repulsive and you will end up on at least my ignorelist.

 

Furthermore .... come on guys .... why can't we stop thinking that 25k HP dps'er must be carried trough a DF SM .... Or a 66 geared dps'er who must sit out a EV HM council fight .... crazy stuff ......

 

PS: Scum and TfB SM's are not dropping UW-tokens. Only HM drops those (and HM doesn't drop ARK).

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All these "ninja-looting" discussions changed my behaviour so far that I usually ( ! ) go out from OPs with ZERO ( ! ) loot - except with commendations, of course.

 

I always do "pass" whereas 99 % do "greed" for the same thing ... It has become NORMAL ( ! ) for me to get out of OPs with any loot - because I'm not greedy enough.

 

And now everyone will laugh obver me because I'm not selfish enough ... Well, if that makes you happy, then please just do it.

 

I've noticed before how much you like to flaunt your moral superiority. But if you don't know how the system works, that has nothing to do with being "not selfish enough". Or do you work for free, because you are "not greedy enough" to take money for it? And how does that even relate to ninja-looting discussions? No sane person will call you a ninja-looter for "greeding" on an item.

 

What I do not understand at all is using "need" for luxury items that are reputaion items. "I NEED this reputation", LOL ?

 

It's a video game. What do we need anything for? To complete content. Reputation and the rewards associated with it are content too. Of course, if you think you can't "need" on reputation items it's only consequent not to "need" on gear...

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Let me ask you would you rather I tanked your operation for you on a 72/78 geared toon and asked to roll on 72 aim gear/tokens or would you rather I showed up on a 66/69 geared bountyhunter with a 58 weapon and tried to tank in that?

 

That said I do usually say when I jon a pug something like "hey Im tanking this, but I want to roll dps gear/healer cunning gear/whatever as my main spec ok?"

 

I normally get people complain anyhow cos some people just insist on looking gift horses in the mouth.

 

I assume you are not trolling us since I never would take a bountyhunter as a tank. If its for real than you won't have a tankstance without an AC and on my part you're out mate :p

 

Assuming you meant Powertech shieldspec/hybrid;

Emphasis on ASKING. This is something nobody is doing or at least not in any pugrun I have been in.

And even if you asked I would rather have you on a 66/69 geared Powertech. This would eliminate as much doubt as possible. Ofc you can still scam your way through it by maiming your Powertech on purpose but hey .... you can't stop all douches can we?

66/69 gear is enough for DF/DP SM's and with the extra healingpower a 16 man group has you won't come close to dieing if they are slightly awake.

 

TL;DR:

Just come in the gear you toon has. If its below the recommended level inform opsleader that you will need on certain pieces and see if he (dis)agrees.

 

PS: Loot rules while pugging are very easy and shouldnt be confusing at all.

 

Rule 1: Need = upgrade for the current gear you have in the role you play - Greed = if you want it for any other reason

Easy ..... any other reason to need it? Ask in opschat and be a nice person for a change

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Only way to stop the jerks is to put all the loot on token systems. You kill a boss, you get X-token(s that are related to the bosses you have downed. Not only is it the best solution, it gives the unlucky a light at the end of the tunnel towards getting that special piece. I for 1 have stopped doing SMDF/DP after trying since they were released to get 1 friggin' UW token for my 4 piece heal set on my sorc. Wise up Biofail. Edited by Darkwords
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I always felt they should implement a "need for companion" option and in doing this, keep players from needing on gear that doesn't fit their class (why this check isn't already in the code is beyond me).

 

Basically it would go Need > Need for Companion > Greed > Pass.

 

For example, if a Jugg needs on a heavy armor Str piece and say, a SI needs for companion (the regular need option would be greyed out), the Jugg's roll will overwrite it. However, if that same SI needed for companion and everyone else rolled greed or passed on it, the SI would win.

 

Obviously this would only go for gear/mod drops, for rep items/mounts/pets/ etc, it would be as normal. And on that note, I always felt secondary items should be greed/pass to prevent one person rolling need while the rest greed. Either greed it to give everyone an equal shot at it or pass if you don't care/already have it.

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I certainly see a bit of this in pug ops, with well geared people in 72s or 78s with set bonuses needing on Arkanian tokens, and needing on the relic drops despite having 2 good relics already. I've seen people switch out to crappy green gear before rolling need on an "upgrade". And the worst, a 16 man SM pug where a guy rolled need on the mainhand. Not only did he not actually need it, he proceeded to offer to trade it and the other loot he had won for credits. A few of us complained but all the ops leader had to say was "lol so what, nobody needs that crap anyway". Well, being a pug story mode, some people did actually need it and that player should have been kicked from the group for his appalling behaviour. A good ops leader has the ability to manage loot fairly, but it seems that once they've got themselves geared up some just don't care as long as they get their weekly done quickly.
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They could be needing for their alts or offspec.

 

I do S&V runs just to get a chance at UW tokens and mainhand. And when I join them, I join with my strongest character as I don't want to be a hinderance or have to be carried if I join with a toon that's a fresh 55 and needs the gear.

You don't need to be overgeared to not be hinderance for the group. Any half decent player can pull their weight with the required gear. And if by fresh 55 you mean like "just ding'd" then that probably means it has the 58s from Makeb vendor mixed with greens/blues from Corellia, in which case you shouldn't join the op group at all. Instead you should do the Oricon quest line to get the 66 set, which is enough gear to do those sm ops

 

 

And since i have participated in the run and contributed to the kills at least as much as everyone else - doesn't it stand to reason that I have a legitimate roll on tokens? .

 

This could be a fair point. Though you know very well what's the etiquette and the expected behavior regarding loot in a group. So this point should be made at the very start of the op to avoid problems and conflicts. But, as you can imagine,you never see such a thing, people who need gear their toons don't need never say anything in advanced...

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This could be a fair point. Though you know very well what's the etiquette and the expected behavior regarding loot in a group. So this point should be made at the very start of the op to avoid problems and conflicts. But, as you can imagine,you never see such a thing, people who need gear their toons don't need never say anything in advanced...

 

Imo its not a fair point at all. The rewards he gets for being their are the comms and mmgs + elements. Anything else he isn't entitled at and sounds very selfish.

My opsleader would go crazy on me if I suggested that he should give a piece to me because I was their for the kill. Just like with pugruns loot gets distributed fairly fair.

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Legacy gear is wonderful and has made my life much easier however, it comes with it's own set of demons. Players that do not need gear will need and pass to other chars leaving the people who are actually running the OP with few options. I have seen many tricks to get gear to themselves, their guild members in the raid, etc., as has been stated above. A token system would alleviate the issue entirely.

 

I understand Biofail's reasoning for wanting players to run OPs with their other chars but the legacy system throws a wrench in the gears anyway when a player needs for their alt and then yanks a few mods/enh out to send away. My only exception to looting for another char is if I am asked to do a HM DP/DF on one of my chars with pug friends. I will tell them up front that I expect to be able to roll on a set item if I have it or not. My BH has a few DF pieces and if they want me on my main, I ain't running those types of OPs for my health. I certainly don't care about a few coms as welfare 78 gear does no good for my alts at this point. hehe.

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Sorry but you are the type of person I don't want in my runs, and this attitude of 'I'll roll need on everything because one of my alts can use' is why I dislike the whole legacy gear mod shuffle.

 

On the other hand it has becoime pretty normal to me to go out of OPS without ANY piece of loot because I always "pass" on things because I'm already quite good equipped and don't roll on alts, either.

 

This to a point that I almost refuse to go on OPs nowadays because I do know that I will end on having NOTHING. Usually even the "luxury loot" like vehicles are won by other team members. That's just the way it is.

 

I'm only fulfilling my weeklies (for Commendations) nowadays, apart from that I've returned to solo play. Thank God I have enough alts. This way I know that I'll get some loot, after all.

 

I'd love to see how many players would actually be able to achieve top tier gear if they had to beat each tier of content on the actual character (e.g. no farming SM / easy weeklies for comms to buy gear two or three tiers over the content being played, no shuffling mods to alts, and no crafting top tier stuff).

 

Heroics for at-level-geared characters can be quite a challenge. Especially on Taris, Republic side, in my opinion.

 

If you wanted 72 or 78 or whatever gear and I was running the game, your character would have to beat content tuned for the gear just below to obtain that gear.

 

I do believe that there are - underlying - still mechanics present that reward players if they manage to beat an FP or a Heroic Quest undergeared. More artifact status stuff, for example, I think.

My opinion is based solely on signs, though. World Bosses are imho the main indicator that my theorty might be right, but I also know 2 spots where usually extraordinarily good stuff drops when I'm undergeared or underlevelled.

 

It's a video game. What do we need anything for? To complete content. Reputation and the rewards associated with it are content too. Of course, if you think you can't "need" on reputation items it's only consequent not to "need" on gear...

 

Now, tell me, what is the difference between gear and reputation items, then ? According to your view, both are basically the same. At least in terms of loot mechanisms.

 

On the other hand, this sounds to me as if it was consequent to "need" on gear anyway if one was doing "need" on reputation items as well.

 

Or, to adapt your sentence :

 

"Of course, if you think you can "need" on reputation items it's only consequent to "need" on gear..."

 

Only way to stop the jerks is to put all the loot on token systems. You kill a boss, you get X-token(s that are related to the bosses you have downed. Not only is it the best solution, it gives the unlucky a light at the end of the tunnel towards getting that special piece. I for 1 have stopped doing SMDF/DP after trying since they were released to get 1 friggin' UW token for my 4 piece heal set on my sorc. Wise up Biofail.

 

DDO has an imho even better system : At the end of each ... equivalent of an FP here ... there stands a treasure chest. It's contents are aligned to the player's names. They can only take the items that have their names associated to them.

However, one can "reallocate", as I call it, items to other team members as well - but only the owner of the item can do this.

 

Of course there are discussions, too. There, a recurring there in discussions is the "my loot is my loot" meme. Sharing it is rather a sign of generousity, because the name-assigned loot in the treasure chest belongs to the player in the first place.

 

In my opinion (and I must say that I don't know any other MMO apart from SWTOR & DDO), this would be perfect as well.

Edited by AlrikFassbauer
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Now, tell me, what is the difference between gear and reputation items, then ? According to your view, both are basically the same. At least in terms of loot mechanisms.

 

On the other hand, this sounds to me as if it was consequent to "need" on gear anyway if one was doing "need" on reputation items as well.

 

Or, to adapt your sentence :

 

"Of course, if you think you can "need" on reputation items it's only consequent to "need" on gear..."

 

They ARE basically the same in term of loot mechanisms:

 

You "need" on gear as long as you can improve your gear with it.

You "need" on reputation items as long as you can improve your reputation with it.

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I need on only items that are upgrades to my gear. and I also Need on Pets that I do not have. I am a pet collector and I need on pets. I will however pass on mounts and crewskill items and gear that are not upgrades. I will however greed on rare items that sell for alot.. like Isotopes. I think thats the proper way to do it.
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Seems to me just from this thread there is very little consensus about what the "rules" are, so getting angry if someone sees it differently to you is rather pointless. The universal unwritten rules just aren't universal, unfortunately.

 

I don't have a problem with people needing on rep tokens or pets. I need on pets I don't have (never yet won one, though), and rep tokens for factions I'm not maxed with. If I don't I'm just handing them to someone else. Never yet got into a barney over it. Folks don't seem to mind that on my server. If they did I would change my ways.

 

Outside of gear, "Need" means "I really, really, really want it."

 

The only time I ever got into a Need/Greed drama was when some tool started looting a boss while I was still in a tough fight, and in my hurry to clear the screen so I could see what I was doing I hit Need for the thing I meant to Greed on, and Greed on the thing I meant to Need on. Ended up with a Strength Lightsabre for my Sage (Bind on Pickup, of course). Man, this guy really hit the roof. He was pestering me in whispers for hours about it, demanding recompense.

 

He got an apology and an explanation. That wasn't enough, I think he wanted me to magic him a lightsabre out of thin air. He just wouldn't let it lie, so had to go on the ignore list.

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Seems to me just from this thread there is very little consensus about what the "rules" are, so getting angry if someone sees it differently to you is rather pointless. The universal unwritten rules just aren't universal, unfortunately.

 

The only time I ever got into a Need/Greed drama was when some tool started looting a boss while I was still in a tough fight, and in my hurry to clear the screen so I could see what I was doing I hit Need for the thing I meant to Greed on, and Greed on the thing I meant to Need on. Ended up with a Strength Lightsabre for my Sage (Bind on Pickup, of course). Man, this guy really hit the roof. He was pestering me in whispers for hours about it, demanding recompense.

 

He got an apology and an explanation. That wasn't enough, I think he wanted me to magic him a lightsabre out of thin air. He just wouldn't let it lie, so had to go on the ignore list.

 

When players loot while we are still in combat, since my screen is blocked by loot tabs, I simply stop healing or fighting and peruse the loot...it's kinda funny when I am healing :) Looting while still in combat to clean up adds or when folks are dead is ghetto.

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This is tricky and people have different opinions. I can understand that one wants to "not be a hindrance" to the run, but really, nearly everyone has alts. Some have lots of them. If we all rolled for our alts then what? It's the same as we all Need on everything. What about people who may be playing on their only character and the gear is an upgrade for them? They get less of a chance because they can't run as many ops per week.

Sorry but you are the type of person I don't want in my runs, and this attitude of 'I'll roll need on everything because one of my alts can use' is why I dislike the whole legacy gear mod shuffle.[/Quote]

Well my best friend .... If you are doing this than you are one of the reasons I hate pugging sometimes. No your rolls are not legitimate and you should at least ask in opschat about it. The reasons for this is that you can NOT need for alts or offspec. You have very very neat button for that called 'greed' ;-)

If you want to gearup alts than bring your alt.[/Quote]

That's where the /ops channel comes in. I inform the team why I'm joining and what they should expect. Not a single team had problems with that. Just as I didn't have any problems with carrying undergeared people through the run in order for everyone to get a chance to roll.

 

Pugs go in 16 man groups because the content is even easier than 8 man and thr groups regularly have several undergeared people and a few of them are completely new to the operation. They have it even more easier because of overgeared and experienced players in the group. And while I'm all for "need for character, greed for alts and comps" in flashpoints and general PvE, situations like pug ops runs are different for the sole reason they take a lot longer and require much more effort.

 

I get what you three are saying, but I feel you're looking at it from a different perspective. That perspective says my time spent in an operation is not as valuable as the time that a new, inexperienced and undergeared player has put in. This is completely unacceptable. Not to mention demeaning. Anyone good enough to carry you through an operation is good enough to roll. Especially after they've informed you on why they're joining and on what they will be rolling.

 

@Dawn and underlined: Please re-read my original post if you're having trouble understanding. Putting words into my mouth is not a polite way of having a discussion. Thank you.

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That's where the /ops channel comes in. I inform the team why I'm joining and what they should expect. Not a single team had problems with that. Just as I didn't have any problems with carrying undergeared people through the run in order for everyone to get a chance to roll..

1000% fair. It's not possible to go wrong this way.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I need on equipment for my toon im on, greed on everything else.

Only exception to that rule is if I see people in the pug needing on reputation or vehicles and such. If I'm not maxed on rep or don't have that vehicle, then I'm going to need against you to make it a bit more fair.

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