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That feeling...


Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
10.03.2019 , 03:15 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
Can you elaborate on how the maps encourage "bad" behavior? What is "bad" behavior to you, and how do the design of the maps affect the mentality of a player?

When i go into a wz, i have a pre-set plan and what i should do to best help win the match, initially. As the warzone progresses, you see what composition they have, where they are going, how they choose to allocate their resources and i try and react accordingly. At no point in a match does the map change my mentality since the map is a constant and does not vary.
Yeah in my post there I explained how the game could add incentives to actually play objectively.

Like reward players with titles. Have a title for planting a bomb in Voidstar 100 times, etc. Stuff like that would actually give people a reason to play objectively and if they had titles for most wins, percentage of wins versus losses, most losses, they could add lots of different titles for all the different activities that happen in the WZs.

They could also have unique sets of armors as rewards for people that play objectively... once a year tally up everyone's stats regarding objective gameplay and then offer armor sets to these players only. They could figure out the logistics of how to reward players I just haphazardly put this together but you get the idea.

Incentives would encourage better gameplay from the players. By removing all incentives from lowbies and mids all the way to top level PVP in 70s regs has only served to make players not care if they win or not.

I bring up lowbies and mids, because that's an example of how BW removed all incentives from PVPing in the lower tiers and how it directly affected the life of those tiers in the game... Removing WZ comms gained in lowbies/mids removed any purpose to queue those tiers, and then the other part that put the bow on top of it was when they added instant lvl 70 tokens.

Instant 70 tokens negate any reason to level up so that killed a lot of the lowbies/mids PVP population, too. PVP used to be a very fun and good way to level up your characters, now the most common tactic is to use a instant 70 token and skip any leveling at all. Lowbies and mids are a ghost town now, and this is stupid because you want the lower levels to actually be thriving, not avoided and despised by veteran players. New players coming in are greeted by this...?
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
10.03.2019 , 03:22 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Yeah in my post there I explained how the game could add incentives to actually play objectively.

Like reward players with titles. Have a title for planting a bomb in Voidstar 100 times, etc. Stuff like that would actually give people a reason to play objectively and if they had titles for most wins, percentage of wins versus losses, most losses, they could add lots of different titles for all the different activities that happen in the WZs.

They could also have unique sets of armors as rewards for people that play objectively... once a year tally up everyone's stats regarding objective gameplay and then offer armor sets to these players only. They could figure out the logistics of how to reward players I just haphazardly put this together but you get the idea.

Incentives would encourage better gameplay from the players. By removing all incentives from lowbies and mids all the way to top level PVP in 70s regs has only served to make players not care if they win or not.

I bring up lowbies and mids, because that's an example of how BW removed all incentives from PVPing in the lower tiers and how it directly affected the life of those tiers in the game... Removing WZ comms gained in lowbies/mids removed any purpose to queue those tiers, and then the other part that put the bow on top of it was when they added instant lvl 70 tokens.

Instant 70 tokens negate any reason to level up so that killed a lot of the lowbies/mids PVP population, too. PVP used to be a very fun and good way to level up your characters, now the most common tactic is to use a instant 70 token and skip any leveling at all. Lowbies and mids are a ghost town now, and this is stupid because you want the lower levels to actually be thriving, not avoided and despised by veteran players. New players coming in are greeted by this...?
I guess you could include in that sort of sick feeling: Having to use the ignore list in game due to all of the negative garbage in general chat.. BUT the good news .. is that it works. So that helps. I've also found that it works pretty good for the forums as well !

Along those same lines: that sick feeling when you realize that the only way to get through a favorite part of the game is to traverse a very narrow passage OVER an area where acrophobia gives you a headache !!



Been there … done that !!

(████████████████████████████]:|█[ioi]█[|||████]|█|

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
10.03.2019 , 03:25 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by OlBuzzard View Post
Along those same lines: that sick feeling when you realize that the only way to get through a favorite part of the game is to traverse a very narrow passage OVER an area where acrophobia gives you a headache !!
Yeah I like to do the datacron hunt and on the parts where you are traversing lines high above everything, I like to look down, and then spin the camera all around it really affects me like I am really there lol. Makes me feel dizzy.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

Ardrossan's Avatar


Ardrossan
10.03.2019 , 03:55 PM | #24
idk how common this is on other servers, but on SS it's very unlikely anyone under 70 will do any pvp besides death matches. So that's a problem for stuff like huttball, Odessen, and hypergate. The rest are fairly straightforward, and of course only brandspanking newbies will have this problem, but it does encourage bads. I don't think that's BW's fault though - there aren't enough people playing in the lower tiers for anything besides death matches, unless it's 2xp.

I like huttball, all of them except Queshball [it screws with my sense of direction] and there's no match I really loathe. I'm not fond of Yavin though, mainly because it pops more than the others imo, and because it's difficult to call incs - going back to players not knowing the match, if I call incs for Jungle or Relics, well, the newbies don't know where that is, Left and Right is irrelevant, we don't use directions for that map either, so it's a pain. Odessen has that problem too - hardly anyone calls incs, and hardly anyone responds to incs.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Companions are a crutch for the weak.

ZeroTypeR's Avatar


ZeroTypeR
10.03.2019 , 04:33 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Oh, you’ve also visited the 8th lvl of hell
The Horror.., I barely escaped with my sanity in tact

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
10.03.2019 , 04:54 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Yeah in my post there I explained how the game could add incentives to actually play objectively.

Like reward players with titles. Have a title for planting a bomb in Voidstar 100 times, etc. Stuff like that would actually give people a reason to play objectively and if they had titles for most wins, percentage of wins versus losses, most losses, they could add lots of different titles for all the different activities that happen in the WZs.

They could also have unique sets of armors as rewards for people that play objectively... once a year tally up everyone's stats regarding objective gameplay and then offer armor sets to these players only. They could figure out the logistics of how to reward players I just haphazardly put this together but you get the idea.

Incentives would encourage better gameplay from the players. By removing all incentives from lowbies and mids all the way to top level PVP in 70s regs has only served to make players not care if they win or not.

I bring up lowbies and mids, because that's an example of how BW removed all incentives from PVPing in the lower tiers and how it directly affected the life of those tiers in the game... Removing WZ comms gained in lowbies/mids removed any purpose to queue those tiers, and then the other part that put the bow on top of it was when they added instant lvl 70 tokens.

Instant 70 tokens negate any reason to level up so that killed a lot of the lowbies/mids PVP population, too. PVP used to be a very fun and good way to level up your characters, now the most common tactic is to use a instant 70 token and skip any leveling at all. Lowbies and mids are a ghost town now, and this is stupid because you want the lower levels to actually be thriving, not avoided and despised by veteran players. New players coming in are greeted by this...?
This does not answer my question at all. I asked you to define "bad" behavior and to explain how the map design affects this bad behavior and changes the mentality of a player from good to bad?
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
10.03.2019 , 04:56 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
This does not answer my question at all. I asked you to define "bad" behavior and to explain how the map design affects this bad behavior and changes the mentality of a player from good to bad?
I realize "bad" was probably not the exact word I should have used, but by "bad" I mean not doing objectives, sitting in the middle doing nothing objective at all and just deathmatching. Basically there's nothing to stop this, or to encourage people not to do it. That's my point. If they want people to give a crap, give them a reason to give a crap?
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
10.03.2019 , 10:15 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Yeah in my post there I explained how the game could add incentives to actually play objectively.

Like reward players with titles. Have a title for planting a bomb in Voidstar 100 times, etc. Stuff like that would actually give people a reason to play objectively and if they had titles for most wins, percentage of wins versus losses, most losses, they could add lots of different titles for all the different activities that happen in the WZs.

They could also have unique sets of armors as rewards for people that play objectively... once a year tally up everyone's stats regarding objective gameplay and then offer armor sets to these players only. They could figure out the logistics of how to reward players I just haphazardly put this together but you get the idea.

Incentives would encourage better gameplay from the players. By removing all incentives from lowbies and mids all the way to top level PVP in 70s regs has only served to make players not care if they win or not.

I bring up lowbies and mids, because that's an example of how BW removed all incentives from PVPing in the lower tiers and how it directly affected the life of those tiers in the game... Removing WZ comms gained in lowbies/mids removed any purpose to queue those tiers, and then the other part that put the bow on top of it was when they added instant lvl 70 tokens.

Instant 70 tokens negate any reason to level up so that killed a lot of the lowbies/mids PVP population, too. PVP used to be a very fun and good way to level up your characters, now the most common tactic is to use a instant 70 token and skip any leveling at all. Lowbies and mids are a ghost town now, and this is stupid because you want the lower levels to actually be thriving, not avoided and despised by veteran players. New players coming in are greeted by this...?
On this, Lhance and I are in 100% agreement and have both been trying to get Bioware to listen for 3 years.
We’ve both had some good ideas and debates and come up with the best ways to rebirth lowbies and Mids. Half the time I don’t know where Lhance’s ideas finish and mine start. After so many years I think we are in sync on what should be done.
Bioware just don’t give a **** about lowbies and Mids. Them not caring about lowbie and Mids pvp is part of the reason lvl 70 pvp is a **** show at the moment. People don’t learn in lowbies anymore (where they should be).

I miss proper lowbie progression leveling. After playing the game since launch and with over 100 Alts, it got to the point where I only leveled up my new Alts in lowbies.
It was also good if there was a meta change or you hadn’t played a class or spec for a long time. You could jump onto a lowbie Alt to warm up, get the rust off or learn some new meta.
My old role (rank) in our pvp guild was Master Trainer to teach newbies to our guild about basic tactics and strategy and then move them into the more advanced stuff before they hit end lvl. Then the guild Training Masters would take over to teach them ranked.
All of that is now impossible to do because lowbies is dead. (Thanks Bioware)

On a side note, has anyone heard from Bioware what the new lowbie - mid brackets going to be? Imagine being lvl 41 and playing against people who purposely park Alts at lvl 74 to stomp any lower lvls?

I wish they would just combine both lowbies and Mids. Give everyone lvl 74 abilities and bolster gear to a cookie cutter max (same stats based on class).

That is how other game like Gw2 do it for their lowbie players. Actually they don’t even have lowbies or Mids. They boost everyone to max lvl with the same stats and access to all the same things.
It’s the best pvp system to put everyone together I’ve personally seen in an MMO.
Gear doesn’t matter, lvl doesn’t matter, the only thing that matters is what you choose and how good you are.
I would love to see swtor do that for pvp in this game, but we know it will never, ever happen. Just look at the 6.0 gearing system for pvpers and you’ll understand they don’t care if we play for fun and pitting our skills vs skill.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
10.03.2019 , 10:42 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
This does not answer my question at all. I asked you to define "bad" behavior and to explain how the map design affects this bad behavior and changes the mentality of a player from good to bad?
Lhance pretty much answered this, but I wanted to add my 2 cents worth.

Bad pvp behaviour in any map is not playing to win.

What I mean by that is objective pvp has turned into meat head dps farming pvp so that the team with over whelming strength mostly wins by default, not because people used their brains to win or because the teams were even or matched.
People play follow the leader, they don’t guard and they don’t actually care if they win or lose.

This attitude has been a pervasive cancer in pvp since they remove 8v8 ranked and replaced it with 4v4 death match.
Bioware have only exacerbated this attitude and poor game play by destroying lowbie pvp progression lvling. Why? because people go straight to end game, come across ranked death match people who’ve their own code about reg pvp (aka, it doesn’t matter, only ranked matters). So the newbies to pvp and even the older guys learn this attitude. Now we have a majority of pvpers who think winning is who does the most dps on the board, not wether they actually win.

Lhance is right, this is especially more true in maps like Odessen because you can’t see the enemy. So people go hunting for a fight at the expense of trying to take other unguarded nodes or fighting to take nodes.
In all other maps, you can see where the enemy is 99% of the time (if you bother looking at your map and use situational awareness. This is not the case in Odessen.
Add the way the map is designed more like solving a puzzle and the poor attitude players now have to winning and it’s easy to understand how Odessen is probably the worst map in this game to play proper pvp.
Even objective pvpers like myself and Lhance (we are a dying breed) like to fight people, that’s what pvp is. But when you don’t know where the enemy (because the map and mechanics aren’t ideal) or you have to choose to guard “every match” (because no one else will help), you can spend a whole match and not even see the enemy because both they and your team are in the middle of no where farming dps.
Most of the times if I do decide to stay for Odessen (I usually leave as soon as it pops now) we win because of me playing the objectives properly, not because my team was better than the other team.

I hate Odessen the worst of all the maps because it encourages this sort of “bad” play.
Even though many hate Hutt Ball maps (mainly because of the mechanics and it popping so much), at least you can see your enemy and fight while trying to win (if people play properly). Original Hutt Ball was always my favourite map in the game. Quesh Ball was better in the past till they broke too many things in it, Vandin HB could be good with some changes and people understanding strategy. HB’s biggest issue is it pops too much and with 3 maps it has 3-9 chance to pop (33%) of the time and people are sick of it. So they don’t even try to play it properly anymore.

My actual favourite map and the one that encourages people to play properly (because of the mechanics and how it’s setup) is Hypergates. This is the most pure objective pvp map in the game (IMO). It’s a shame it hardly pops for me and I’m lucky if I get it one in twenty pops.

Sorry for the essay.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
10.03.2019 , 10:52 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
I realize "bad" was probably not the exact word I should have used, but by "bad" I mean not doing objectives, sitting in the middle doing nothing objective at all and just deathmatching. Basically there's nothing to stop this, or to encourage people not to do it. That's my point. If they want people to give a crap, give them a reason to give a crap?
This ^^... So much this ^^