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Let's talk about Strike Fighters

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Let's talk about Strike Fighters
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Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
08.31.2015 , 01:16 PM | #611
While reading another thread that recently turned to an EMP discussion, I had an idea.

What if there was a strike-only missile with focus on utility/cc. I'm thinking of a combination of other existing missiles.

Moderate lockon time (between 1.7-2 seconds), huge firing arc, 7km range, around 12-15 seconds reload time.

- deals no hull damage, but huge amount of shield damage (or drains shield energy).
- disables use of target's systems ability
- slows down

T1/2/3 talents should be filler talents. Something like shorter lockon, more ammo, higher range, shorter reload or whatever fits best.

T4: disables use of shield ability - or - disables use of engine ability
(T4 is a somewhat lame talent but this is the only option I can think of to not give a single missile both effects)

T5: adds 3-5km explosion radius, disables mines/drones/turrets, all targets within explosion are affected - or - lockon can't be broken once missile is launched
(I thought of T5 as an option between node-clearing and single target supremacy)

I'm indecisive about debuff duration. I was thinking of the debuffs to last 2 seconds longer than the reload time, except for interdiction which lasts 4 seconds shorter than the reload time, so the target has a chance of hiding.


No idea if that missile would be too strong or still too weak, just wanted to post it before I forget. A downside would be, that strikes will feel forced to use that missile.

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
08.31.2015 , 11:37 PM | #612
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
While reading another thread that recently turned to an EMP discussion, I had an idea.

What if there was a strike-only missile with focus on utility/cc. I'm thinking of a combination of other existing missiles.

Moderate lockon time (between 1.7-2 seconds), huge firing arc, 7km range, around 12-15 seconds reload time.

- deals no hull damage, but huge amount of shield damage (or drains shield energy).
- disables use of target's systems ability
- slows down

T1/2/3 talents should be filler talents. Something like shorter lockon, more ammo, higher range, shorter reload or whatever fits best.

T4: disables use of shield ability - or - disables use of engine ability
(T4 is a somewhat lame talent but this is the only option I can think of to not give a single missile both effects)

T5: adds 3-5km explosion radius, disables mines/drones/turrets, all targets within explosion are affected - or - lockon can't be broken once missile is launched
(I thought of T5 as an option between node-clearing and single target supremacy)

I'm indecisive about debuff duration. I was thinking of the debuffs to last 2 seconds longer than the reload time, except for interdiction which lasts 4 seconds shorter than the reload time, so the target has a chance of hiding.


No idea if that missile would be too strong or still too weak, just wanted to post it before I forget. A downside would be, that strikes will feel forced to use that missile.
The main problem I see is that Ion and EMP would be trap missiles on strikers and would largely remain useless on all the other ships (let's be honest it would be a big buff to T3 scouts too if they had a utility missile that actually was useful and that wouldn't be a bad thing since most of their missile options are pretty lackluster).

I'd honestly say though that you'd probably need to give it a much longer range than 7K based on reports of being able to strip a target of it's shields using blasters before the ion missile hits. Ion missile (or your proposed missile) would pack a lot more power if you launched it at say 12K where by the time it hits and has stripped a target's shields you're within HLC range. That would be powerful and worth considering. I do feel though that for the T1/T3 striker you'd need to give it some ability to outright destroy mines/drones since they would be giving up their only source of burst damage for a utility missile. If you're going to make that kind of trade you really need to make it worth their while (this assumes that torps get buffed to be reliable damage dealers; in which case the T3 will really need utility missiles to make a compelling argument for being equipped over thermite torps which have a very powerful debuff).
Aodhán Guilhem
Republic Strike Fighter Pilot
Jedi Covenant

JasonSzeremi's Avatar


JasonSzeremi
09.01.2015 , 03:42 AM | #613
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
...12-15 seconds reload time.
- deals no hull damage, but huge amount of shield damage (or drains shield energy).
- disables use of target's systems ability
- slows down
T4: disables use of shield ability - or - disables use of engine ability
(T4 is a somewhat lame talent but this is the only option I can think of to not give a single missile both effects)
T5: adds 3-5km explosion radius, disables mines/drones/turrets, all targets within explosion are affected - or - lockon can't be broken once missile is launched
I'm not going to say this is a bad idea, I can see you've put some thought into it and heck, just having ideas is a good thing.
the reload time seems high to me. Alot of the utility missiles we have now are used less because they also have high reload times, and that clashes with having abundant missile breaks. Unless it can't be missile broke. This might be a great option if you're a better gunner then I am... often missiles is the only significant damage I do to a target until I can corner/joust them. A T1 fighter with this missile would definitely have to finish with their blasters, or for someone else to finish them.
The no lock-on feature comes very late on your missile, should it be intrinsic to the weapon instead? You could end up with a missile that has the ability to disable engine/shield abilities but who's lock on is broken by them before it hits.
Doing virtually no direct damage is one reason ion missiles (the original ones) are almost never used.

If this missile was in the game, I'm sure some pilots would use it, and use it well but I probably wouldn't use it on a T1 or T3 strike, where the missiles are a large part of my damage ability.

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
09.01.2015 , 08:08 AM | #614
Quote: Originally Posted by JasonSzeremi View Post
I can see you've put some thought into it and heck, just having ideas is a good thing.
It took me more time to write the post than I put into the idea. I really posted it just because it came to my mind. I had an interesting idea a week ago and didn't post because I wanted to refine it; over night I completely forgot the idea and can't even slightly remember what it was. However I think the idea needs to improved, because reading a second time over it, it seems weaker than when writing it down.

I can see the problems with the shield damage, however I think the main reason shield damage doesn't work on ion missiles is their long lockon time. Improving range could work there but I fear improving the range beyond 8-9km could make all the debuffs or the T5 too powerful. I can also imagine the missile doing a small amount of direct hull damage to kill mines.

A shorter reload is probably a good thing but is has to come with shorter debuff duration. Anyway debuff durations, amount of shield damage, duration of disabling turrets/mines/drones all compared to reload+lockon duration and all in one missile probably needs a lot of fine tuning where a difference of one second can mark the line between useless and overpowered.

ALaggyGrunt's Avatar


ALaggyGrunt
09.01.2015 , 12:59 PM | #615
Ion Missiles are pretty much useless against anything with a lock break. The point of them is to rip of a target's shields so you can finish it with blasters, which means your target has fresh shields-and, usually, lock breaks.

If there's any missile which could be made unshakable without being broken, it's that one.

JasonSzeremi's Avatar


JasonSzeremi
09.01.2015 , 05:40 PM | #616
Quote: Originally Posted by ALaggyGrunt View Post
Ion Missiles are pretty much useless against anything with a lock break. The point of them is to rip of a target's shields so you can finish it with blasters, which means your target has fresh shields-and, usually, lock breaks.

If there's any missile which could be made unshakable without being broken, it's that one.
Basically, giving ion missile, or Dan's missile unbreakable lock because.... it needs it?

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
09.02.2015 , 08:51 AM | #617
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
I can see the problems with the shield damage, however I think the main reason shield damage doesn't work on ion missiles is their long lockon time. Improving range could work there but I fear improving the range beyond 8-9km could make all the debuffs or the T5 too powerful. I can also imagine the missile doing a small amount of direct hull damage to kill mines.
to be fair if we assume that concs and torps are buffed to be more reliable and competitive choices to clusters then really a utility missile like Ion, EMP, or your missile having a range greater than 9km is not likely to make the debuffs game breaking (since all utility missiles will need to have very compelling reasons to take them instead of missile that does direct damage, concs and thermites having debuffs of their own).
Aodhán Guilhem
Republic Strike Fighter Pilot
Jedi Covenant

JasonSzeremi's Avatar


JasonSzeremi
09.02.2015 , 12:09 PM | #618
Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin_Kelvar View Post
to be fair if we assume that concs and torps are buffed to be more reliable and competitive choices to clusters then really a utility missile like Ion, EMP, or your missile having a range greater than 9km is not likely to make the debuffs game breaking (since all utility missiles will need to have very compelling reasons to take them instead of missile that does direct damage, concs and thermites having debuffs of their own).
what if the only buff is cutting the lock on times in half and doubling the strikes ammo?

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
09.02.2015 , 12:41 PM | #619
Quote: Originally Posted by JasonSzeremi View Post
what if the only buff is cutting the lock on times in half and doubling the strikes ammo?
Honestly that'd still be a pretty big buff to torps. They'd still have the absurdly long reload time true but they wouldn't be nearly as hard to land in a dogfight and they'd become super useful against bombers that would have a much harder time LOS them (IMO the ttk issue with torps is in no small part due to how easy it is for even a bomber to LOS them, forcing repeated lock on attempts). Even if torps aren't ideal for dogfighting you'd have to make a utility missiles very powerful to make choosing them a compelling enough reason to leave a torp and it's ability to deal with bombers behind.

That being said with torps I think they need a minimum base firing arc of 16 to solve the ninja lock loss problem. To me such a thing isn't a buff so much as a bug fix. the firing arc might've been fine on paper but the reality is that it just makes it super vulnerable to ninja lock losses and the seemingly only way to reliably overcome that bug is with a larger firing arc.

And the reality is that if they want to make non-clusters viable in dogfights they'll have to solve the double break system. Personally I hope for a DField/cluster nerf tied to small/moderate buffs to heavy missiles. The only other option to make heavy missiles viable is making them nearly as spammable as clusters which only hurts single break ships and makes DField all the more essential (and just a straight nerf to DField/clusters doesn't fix some glaring problems with heavy missiles like ninja lock losses and difficulty landing them on bombers).
Aodhán Guilhem
Republic Strike Fighter Pilot
Jedi Covenant

DEATHICIDE's Avatar


DEATHICIDE
09.02.2015 , 08:49 PM | #620
I think it just needs a little bit more of everything.
+ to power pools, hull and shields.
Make this thing slightly OP for a jack of all trades, then dial it back or kick it up a bit for fine tuning.

The guns need to be able to spam without running out of power during those outclassed scout dogfights, and the shields should regenerate faster to compensate further for the bulkiness.

The ship that is supposed to be the icon should be the ship that is slightly OP.
A jack of all trades ship that is OP still can't beat a gunship in range, a scout in maneuverability, or a bomber in durability, so buffing this ship across the board would have made sense long ago, imho.
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