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Let's talk about Strike Fighters

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Let's talk about Strike Fighters
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

JasonSzeremi's Avatar


JasonSzeremi
07.21.2015 , 07:29 AM | #521
If strikes have this much boost, would they be neck and neck racing to nodes with scouts? Would that be a problem?

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
07.21.2015 , 09:10 AM | #522
Quote: Originally Posted by JasonSzeremi View Post
[...] and if at all possible, improvements to the strike fighter should be done without nerfing someone else.
That's a good point. This thread somewhat derailed into complainging about other ship classes and what they can do. Personally I think it's not a good idea to nerf 3 well working classes to balance the fourth instead of buffing the fourth to a well playable level.

At the moment there are three classes that have (imho) one very good and one good subclass to choose from and those classes fulfill roles that are relatively easy to narrow down (melee specialist/support, melee assassin, range assassin/specialist). Currently Strikes have close-to-mid-range ignorables as their role, with the T3 strike being able to fulfill a support role. They don't have high burst, that's ok, we already have two classes with that. They don't create area denial, that's also ok. This is a team game and if they should become viable they'll need something different than the others - In other words, there is no reason to make them like scouts because there are already scouts. So what should they do? Is there even a place for another role in this game?


In my view strikes should be sturdy fighters specialized on mid range combat but more specialized on keeping pressure on an enemy than to actually deal the killing blow.

- Give them +2km range for any Blaster (Ion cannon is not a Blaster) making them truly mid-range. This would have the added benefit of slightly pushing up damage and accuracy (because of dropoff mechanic) and probably would make them easier to play for new players.
- Give them resistence against negative effects. Includes all interdiction effects, ion rail debuffs and drains and whatever things there are that apply debuffs. Depending on debuff either the effectiveness or the duration should be reduced - for example interdiction effects have full duration but less effect and debuffs affecting your regeneration have the same effect but don't last as long; direct power drains (ion rail for example) are reduced in effectiveness.

Those two changes should be enough for making strike fighters able to run away easier when hit by an ion rail as well as making it a bit easier attacking gunships. They'll have an easier time against bombers when interdicition effects are up; also they will eat tick bombers because of range advantage. They will also have an easier time to keep pressure on an enemy without having to get too close. And without having to get close there will be less time when they run out of engines. As this is a team game, they will be able to help their teammates via protecting fire and without having to directly join a dogfight (something they can fulfill now but they'll get to close most of the time).

Now. What to do with the chassis.

T1 Strike is specialized on primary weapons.
- Additional +1km range for all primary weapons.
- Better Blaster regenearation.
- Ion cannon should have a cleave (see: Ion rail) with 1km radius. This should make it easier to take out mines and will support others in close quarters fights.

T2 Strike is pecialized on secondary weapons.
- Reduce lock on time for all secondary weapons. (I was thinking about reduced cooldown, but this ship already has two secondaries which more or less means reduced cooldowns). Reduction should be around 1 second depending on weapon.
- Add 2 degress lockon arc for all secondary weapons.
- More ammo by default.

T3 Strike is specialized in Support
- Add 2km radius for all beneficial team effects to make them easier to use.
(- I was thinking about something like a reverse seeker mine that locks on to allies and restores their shield, but the T3 strike is in a relatively good position right now and I'm not sure he needs additional buffs when he has the two general strike buffs mentioned above)



Edit: sorry for editing so many times, I hope no one has read it during that and got confused.

JasonSzeremi's Avatar


JasonSzeremi
07.25.2015 , 02:26 PM | #523
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
That's a good point. This thread somewhat derailed into complainging about other ship classes and what they can do. Personally I think it's not a good idea to nerf 3 well working classes to balance the fourth instead of buffing the fourth to a well playable level.

At the moment there are three classes that have (imho) one very good and one good subclass to choose from and those classes fulfill roles that are relatively easy to narrow down (melee specialist/support, melee assassin, range assassin/specialist). Currently Strikes have close-to-mid-range ignorables as their role, with the T3 strike being able to fulfill a support role. They don't have high burst, that's ok, we already have two classes with that. They don't create area denial, that's also ok. This is a team game and if they should become viable they'll need something different than the others - In other words, there is no reason to make them like scouts because there are already scouts. So what should they do? Is there even a place for another role in this game?


In my view strikes should be sturdy fighters specialized on mid range combat but more specialized on keeping pressure on an enemy than to actually deal the killing blow.

- Give them +2km range for any Blaster (Ion cannon is not a Blaster) making them truly mid-range. This would have the added benefit of slightly pushing up damage and accuracy (because of dropoff mechanic) and probably would make them easier to play for new players.
- Give them resistence against negative effects. Includes all interdiction effects, ion rail debuffs and drains and whatever things there are that apply debuffs. Depending on debuff either the effectiveness or the duration should be reduced - for example interdiction effects have full duration but less effect and debuffs affecting your regeneration have the same effect but don't last as long; direct power drains (ion rail for example) are reduced in effectiveness.

Those two changes should be enough for making strike fighters able to run away easier when hit by an ion rail as well as making it a bit easier attacking gunships. They'll have an easier time against bombers when interdicition effects are up; also they will eat tick bombers because of range advantage. They will also have an easier time to keep pressure on an enemy without having to get too close. And without having to get close there will be less time when they run out of engines. As this is a team game, they will be able to help their teammates via protecting fire and without having to directly join a dogfight (something they can fulfill now but they'll get to close most of the time).

Now. What to do with the chassis.

T1 Strike is specialized on primary weapons.
- Additional +1km range for all primary weapons.
- Better Blaster regenearation.
- Ion cannon should have a cleave (see: Ion rail) with 1km radius. This should make it easier to take out mines and will support others in close quarters fights.

T2 Strike is pecialized on secondary weapons.
- Reduce lock on time for all secondary weapons. (I was thinking about reduced cooldown, but this ship already has two secondaries which more or less means reduced cooldowns). Reduction should be around 1 second depending on weapon.
- Add 2 degress lockon arc for all secondary weapons.
- More ammo by default.

T3 Strike is specialized in Support
- Add 2km radius for all beneficial team effects to make them easier to use.
(- I was thinking about something like a reverse seeker mine that locks on to allies and restores their shield, but the T3 strike is in a relatively good position right now and I'm not sure he needs additional buffs when he has the two general strike buffs mentioned above)



Edit: sorry for editing so many times, I hope no one has read it during that and got confused.
Reason I haven't posted in a while is above... it looks good, if it's do-able it would probably be enough to push the strike up to being something some of the very good pilots will try again. Two thumbs up.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
07.25.2015 , 04:27 PM | #524
Honestly that's really all I want my strike to be able to do at the very least. It would be nice for more, but if it were the ultimate peeler, whether its peeling a bomber off a node, a Gunship off its roost, or a Scout off another target, and then tanking/ running from what ever heat it gets is all I want from a ship. Its what I used my Pike for at Launch. My gunship ally would pew pew, and I just kept making enemy gunships either move, or getting the attention of Strikes and Scouts that came after him. I like being that piece of meat people want to eat, and then putting them right into the guns of my allies, and going around and doing it over and over and over again.

RickDagles's Avatar


RickDagles
07.25.2015 , 08:05 PM | #525
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
That's a good point. This thread somewhat derailed into complainging about other ship classes and what they can do. Personally I think it's not a good idea to nerf 3 well working classes to balance the fourth instead of buffing the fourth to a well playable level.

At the moment there are three classes that have (imho) one very good and one good subclass to choose from and those classes fulfill roles that are relatively easy to narrow down (melee specialist/support, melee assassin, range assassin/specialist). Currently Strikes have close-to-mid-range ignorables as their role, with the T3 strike being able to fulfill a support role. They don't have high burst, that's ok, we already have two classes with that. They don't create area denial, that's also ok. This is a team game and if they should become viable they'll need something different than the others - In other words, there is no reason to make them like scouts because there are already scouts. So what should they do? Is there even a place for another role in this game?


In my view strikes should be sturdy fighters specialized on mid range combat but more specialized on keeping pressure on an enemy than to actually deal the killing blow.

- Give them +2km range for any Blaster (Ion cannon is not a Blaster) making them truly mid-range. This would have the added benefit of slightly pushing up damage and accuracy (because of dropoff mechanic) and probably would make them easier to play for new players.
- Give them resistence against negative effects. Includes all interdiction effects, ion rail debuffs and drains and whatever things there are that apply debuffs. Depending on debuff either the effectiveness or the duration should be reduced - for example interdiction effects have full duration but less effect and debuffs affecting your regeneration have the same effect but don't last as long; direct power drains (ion rail for example) are reduced in effectiveness.

Those two changes should be enough for making strike fighters able to run away easier when hit by an ion rail as well as making it a bit easier attacking gunships. They'll have an easier time against bombers when interdicition effects are up; also they will eat tick bombers because of range advantage. They will also have an easier time to keep pressure on an enemy without having to get too close. And without having to get close there will be less time when they run out of engines. As this is a team game, they will be able to help their teammates via protecting fire and without having to directly join a dogfight (something they can fulfill now but they'll get to close most of the time).

Now. What to do with the chassis.

T1 Strike is specialized on primary weapons.
- Additional +1km range for all primary weapons.
- Better Blaster regenearation.
- Ion cannon should have a cleave (see: Ion rail) with 1km radius. This should make it easier to take out mines and will support others in close quarters fights.

T2 Strike is pecialized on secondary weapons.
- Reduce lock on time for all secondary weapons. (I was thinking about reduced cooldown, but this ship already has two secondaries which more or less means reduced cooldowns). Reduction should be around 1 second depending on weapon.
- Add 2 degress lockon arc for all secondary weapons.
- More ammo by default.

T3 Strike is specialized in Support
- Add 2km radius for all beneficial team effects to make them easier to use.
(- I was thinking about something like a reverse seeker mine that locks on to allies and restores their shield, but the T3 strike is in a relatively good position right now and I'm not sure he needs additional buffs when he has the two general strike buffs mentioned above)



Edit: sorry for editing so many times, I hope no one has read it during that and got confused.

Wow, very cool ideas. I think the ion AoE for T1 and super clusters for T2 might be a bit OP. But I absolutely love the idea of built-in snare and debuff defense.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
07.26.2015 , 04:01 PM | #526
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post

In my view strikes should be sturdy fighters specialized on mid range combat but more specialized on keeping pressure on an enemy than to actually deal the killing blow.
This sounds nice, but it would require some mighty powerful buffs to survivability to work. Getting killing blows wouldn't be a problem for a pressure/endurance style fighter as scouts and gunships are already both readily shredded by a strike if they can be pressured to the point of running out of cooldowns and running low on engine energy.

The thing is, in order to do that a strike would need to be able to survive a cooldown fueled burst cycle with a greater than 50% chance of survival and still have enough health, energy, and ammunition to attack the target during its cooldown off cycle.

If you think that endurance is the way for strikes to go instead of parity on burst damage, then they would need to be the most durable ship in the game when mostly out in the open. Meaning that pretty much any strike should be harder to kill than a scout with evasion stacked to 91% or a bomber with charged plating active. That probably applies to boost endurance too. If you want strikes to still take more than twice as long as other ships to kill a target then they need to be able to stay on that target for twice as long without undue difficulty.

It sounds a blt like a relentless-evil-villain style of play, say like a Terminator, or the Borg or something like that which may not be that fast but is close to unstoppable and will just wear you down to the point where you're an easy kill when it finally catches up.

Unless what you mean by pressure is, "still non-threatening and an easy kill for scouts and gunships," in which case, screw that.

Whatever buffs strikes end up with, a highly skilled pilot in a strike should have the same sort of potential to influence game outcome as a highly skilled pilot in any other ship class. So if peak performance is going to remain lower than the other ships then a strike is going to need to able to be continue being productive in the fight after things have gotten so hot that all the other classes have been forced to run for it.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Twitch

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
07.26.2015 , 04:10 PM | #527
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
a Terminator,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu0rP2VWLWw I am fine with being this....

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
07.28.2015 , 02:55 PM | #528
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
This sounds nice, but it would require some mighty powerful buffs to survivability to work. Getting killing blows wouldn't be a problem for a pressure/endurance style fighter as scouts and gunships are already both readily shredded by a strike if they can be pressured to the point of running out of cooldowns and running low on engine energy.

The thing is, in order to do that a strike would need to be able to survive a cooldown fueled burst cycle with a greater than 50% chance of survival and still have enough health, energy, and ammunition to attack the target during its cooldown off cycle.

If you think that endurance is the way for strikes to go instead of parity on burst damage, then they would need to be the most durable ship in the game when mostly out in the open. Meaning that pretty much any strike should be harder to kill than a scout with evasion stacked to 91% or a bomber with charged plating active. That probably applies to boost endurance too. If you want strikes to still take more than twice as long as other ships to kill a target then they need to be able to stay on that target for twice as long without undue difficulty.

It sounds a blt like a relentless-evil-villain style of play, say like a Terminator, or the Borg or something like that which may not be that fast but is close to unstoppable and will just wear you down to the point where you're an easy kill when it finally catches up.

Unless what you mean by pressure is, "still non-threatening and an easy kill for scouts and gunships," in which case, screw that.

Whatever buffs strikes end up with, a highly skilled pilot in a strike should have the same sort of potential to influence game outcome as a highly skilled pilot in any other ship class. So if peak performance is going to remain lower than the other ships then a strike is going to need to able to be continue being productive in the fight after things have gotten so hot that all the other classes have been forced to run for it.
This idea seems pretty solid and would make strikers unique unlike now where they encounter the problem of being slower, less agile, and less bursty scouts. I still think they need some performance tuning (such as 10% increase to base turning) and making concs/torps reliable weapons to make them more competitive dogfighters. If they're going to have a terminator playstyle they'd still need those performance boosts to keep targets under their guns and use missiles to wear them down. But I do think it's a far better idea than trying to make them "mid-range" fighters which could only meaningfully be achieved by giving them 1) an absurdly high range increase that redefines "mid range" as something in the ballpark of 7,000-13,000km (scouts close the current midrange distance too quickly for it to be a meaningful range without a very, very large buff to a striker's blaster damage) or 2) strip MLC/QLC from scouts and heavily nerf the range of pods. I'm not really sure trying to make strikers just a slower, less agile, scout with competitive burst would be a sufficient change to give them a clear role (it would be better than no change) so this feels like it would really give them a unique playstyle that would also fit with the general concept of being a "strike fighter."

The terminator style would also make strikers very newb friendly since they'd have the ability to tank basically anything while they learned how to fly instead of the current situation where they'll easily get melted by a half competent veteran. They still might not tally up lots of kills but they'd at least feel they had a chance to do something other than watch their ship blow up in seconds numerous times. Which I always felt was kind of one of the striker's "roles." Namely being the most forgiving ship since, in my experience in other games, the X-Wing class ship was always the most forgiving of pilot error.

Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
T3 Strike is specialized in Support
- Add 2km radius for all beneficial team effects to make them easier to use.
(- I was thinking about something like a reverse seeker mine that locks on to allies and restores their shield, but the T3 strike is in a relatively good position right now and I'm not sure he needs additional buffs when he has the two general strike buffs mentioned above)
While I think a radius increase to their support abilities would be good I think we (both us pilots and the devs) need to stop thinking of the T3 as the support striker and think of it as an assault striker. It's system ability alone leaves it largerly an offensive fighter with some support utility (or no true support utility if it takes remote slicing). A lot of it's potential builds are geared more towards a heavy fighter specializing in assaulting heavily defended areas where any support ability is incidental (we all know it can be a very tanky fighter). Without a dramatic reduction in CD time it's system abilities will never have enough up time to make it support first, offense second. And I dislike the idea of the T3 having buffs where there is only one true build reaches the ship's full potential (namely one where only support related components are taken).

So overall I think the T3 should also get buffs (HLC, maybe concs, swap the sensor minor component for something more useful) that allow it's existing heavy fighter builds to reach their full potential as well improving the existing support fighter builds.
Aodhán Guilhem
Republic Strike Fighter Pilot
Jedi Covenant

Verain's Avatar


Verain
07.29.2015 , 02:59 AM | #529
Anyone think we'll get any more comms from devs before the expac, which presumably is where the strike changes will happen? Possibly with a bunch of other meta changing stuff or req changing stuff that remove everything we offered from validity?
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
07.29.2015 , 09:04 AM | #530
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
This sounds nice, but it would require some mighty powerful buffs to survivability to work. Getting killing blows wouldn't be a problem for a pressure/endurance style fighter as scouts and gunships are already both readily shredded by a strike if they can be pressured to the point of running out of cooldowns and running low on engine energy.

The thing is, in order to do that a strike would need to be able to survive a cooldown fueled burst cycle with a greater than 50% chance of survival and still have enough health, energy, and ammunition to attack the target during its cooldown off cycle.

If you think that endurance is the way for strikes to go instead of parity on burst damage, then they would need to be the most durable ship in the game when mostly out in the open. Meaning that pretty much any strike should be harder to kill than a scout with evasion stacked to 91% or a bomber with charged plating active. That probably applies to boost endurance too. If you want strikes to still take more than twice as long as other ships to kill a target then they need to be able to stay on that target for twice as long without undue difficulty.

It sounds a blt like a relentless-evil-villain style of play, say like a Terminator, or the Borg or something like that which may not be that fast but is close to unstoppable and will just wear you down to the point where you're an easy kill when it finally catches up.

Unless what you mean by pressure is, "still non-threatening and an easy kill for scouts and gunships," in which case, screw that.

Whatever buffs strikes end up with, a highly skilled pilot in a strike should have the same sort of potential to influence game outcome as a highly skilled pilot in any other ship class. So if peak performance is going to remain lower than the other ships then a strike is going to need to able to be continue being productive in the fight after things have gotten so hot that all the other classes have been forced to run for it.
Just some points:
Strikes are already as durable as charged-plating-bombers. Just use charged plating on the strike.
Nothing survives a full burst with cooldowns if it doesn't run away.
Having influence on a game isn't necesarily the same as having big numbers in the stats screen at the end.
Strikes don't need to be able to stay on target "twice as long" because going after targets that run away is either done by scouts or by gunships. (Also think about it: when you can make someone run away you succeded at defending whatever you were defending, satellite or teammate.)

With the changes I proposed I want to make Strikes good at providing cover for a larger area than bombers and also without the disadvantage of being chained to their deployables. After all a 9-10km HLC will be a serious threat - just think about railgun drones (And they're not even intelligent). Also Strikes providing cover that large of an area may be similar to gunship providing railgun cover for each other.


The reason why I'm so obsessed with Strikes in a support role is because that's what they (should) do now and I want them to be useful at it. Another point is that Strikes are most similar to the playstyle of Rogue Squadron (I loved that game for the N64) and I'd like to see that playstyle surviving the changes. And maybe the increased range makes it easier for beginners to get started.