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Let's talk about Strike Fighters

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Let's talk about Strike Fighters
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

clcooper's Avatar


clcooper
06.05.2015 , 12:08 PM | #411
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
As a republic player who plays imp occasionally, and plays stock alts fairly often, I can say with certainty that there is zero difference between imp and pub outside of look and map layout. Neither of which provide either side a distinct advantage outside of cover options - which matter mostly when playing defense in TDM as imps on lost, and trying to assault A on lost in dom. Neither side has a clear advantage nor a clear tactical advantage, and stats shouldn't (and don't) vary at all side-to-side. A t1 gunship is still a t1 gunship. T2 scout is still a t2 scout. Ect.

Such bias does not exist, it simply just doesn't. This off topic emotional rant is utterly moot.
yep I must be dreaming up what I say .I haven't never flew the other ship really I was just dreaming I was . I never went back to the other ship to make sure . no the one side I don't have up to 50,000 reps saved up . I just don't know what I am talking about .
and I forgot a 6% should make so much difference .

yep I will just shut up and let Larry Curly and Moe . run the show . because they have done great so far that is why GSF is so full of new players now. why any time of the day you get right in a GSF match there is no wait times . over 10min. it is full of players wanting to play . and they all keep coming back .

now who is the one dreaming .

I guess the strike is the only thing that needs fixed to bring the new players in . and to keep them . like I said the keyboard top ace wont like what I have to say and I was right .

and if you would take time and read what I one or two other not top aces have said is the same as what I have said . but since we are not the top forum aces what we say doesn't matter . and when like me says hey did you hear what I said . I am told that I am a liar I am not seeing what I am seeing .

the difference between you and me with GSF is I care about every level of player and want to see more new players come and stay . you only care as long as you are on top and can have the highest kill count then anybody else and don't want that to change . there was a thread that said screw GSF he wasn't going to play any more . you didn't listen to him then . you told him to stay around just so you can keep your kill count up .

clcooper's Avatar


clcooper
06.05.2015 , 12:42 PM | #412
Quote: Originally Posted by Drakkolich View Post

I know we aren't directly talking about Strike buffs Nemarus but I still feel it's on topic.
I feel this way because Clcooper came in with a bunch of suggestion to the game, however they were on false information. The discussion we are having is helping him see which information was false (hopefully), thus allowing him to revise what he would to like to see in the form of Strike buffs.

I think everyone should be aloud to express their opinions, however if I see that someone is using false information I like to help them see there errors so they can revise them. Just to clarify I'd never post anything about an opinion being false, I'm just helping correct facts that players use to make their points.
A great example is when Tunewalker said he couldn't remember any buffs ever happening in GSF, my only post to that was showing the buffs that have happened.

I really hope this line of thinking makes sense to you too after my explanation.
thank you
as for the false information I never gave or will give false information . because I have tried . watched , changed crew members . got upgrades. and that is why I have no upgraded ships with up to 50,000 reps waiting to use . I agree I may not have the best component or the crew but even if one of them is off . the % they give should not be making as much of a difference as it does in the game that I see it . . some what ever's give a 6% bonus . but in the game I see it making a 50% bonus .

if you want new players to join and stay don't you think you should listen to the new players also not just all the old players .

same as with other ships . if the gunships say don't change the strike that they are already to hard to kill . should you change the strikes anyways

you don't want a flight simulator game but you want it balanced . and how do you do that . by putting more fairy tale make believe stuff in the game . where one ship will always be the better choice until the next buff or what ever you call it comes out and then that ship will be the only ship worth flying . or do you want it so all ship can fly .

CommanderKiko's Avatar


CommanderKiko
06.05.2015 , 01:48 PM | #413
I've actually been bringing new players into the game, listening to what they have told me, and in this thread have been advocating on their behalf. What have you been doing? Imagining an imbalance between the factions and insulting people while taking the thread exceedingly far off topic.

To say there is an imbalance between, say, the engine pool of an imp type 1 striker and a pub type 1 striker is just not true. They are both type 1's. They have exactly the same (read, copy-paste) stats. They have been tested heavily, constantly, and consistently. Your argument is way off the mark. It's like saying snipers are OP and need nerfed, but slingers aren't OP and don't need any stat changes.

Edit: Drak is right, you are entitled to your opinion. I still feel that this is off topic because it seems like you are comparing imp to pub for the exact same ship. Maybe I'm just misreading what you said, but that is what I'm picking up on.
GM of Defiant Industries LLC (GSF/PvP)
GM of Defiant Security Services (GSF, new)
- Kik˛, Bastion.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.05.2015 , 01:55 PM | #414
Quote: Originally Posted by clcooper View Post
yep I must be dreaming up what I say
Correct. What you are saying in many cases is demonstrably untrue. Not only can we check in game, but we have started several fresh characters on both factions across most servers, and mastered ships on some of them. Many of your claims are contrary to:
> Experiences of multiple players with thousands of games.
> The in game documentation.
> The stated goals of the devs.
> The datamined statistics straight outta the binary.

On the other hand, we have "guy who argues and insults with no evidence on his side, and has only ever posted in the one thread with a dev post".

Quote:
.I haven't never flew the other ship really I was just dreaming I was
So, this may come as a surprise, but people have biases that lead them to come to the wrong conclusions. Usually, these people will claim that they don't have them.


I don't know if you are lying. Or trolling. You could well be either. Drako will be polite, because he wants you to play the game and have fun. I just want to stop putting crap in a thread with high visibility. You don't understand the game, and the whole forums will help you dot that if you ask nicely. The things you think you experienced, you did not. Think that's crazy? If you seriously think that, then you will:
1)- Document. This absolutely includes videos. Video yourself, showing us what you are queueing with (crewmembers, all upgrades), and flying. The whole thing, put it on youtube. Make sure it's high enough resolution that we can read the damage numbers when you shoot.
2)- Find out the tech details that are available, and try to figure out what is wrong. If you think the game isn't performing as documented, do that stuff.

You aren't "dreaming". You don't know how to parse your own experiences in GSF, because you don't understand GSF. You are probably confused. You are maybe lying. But you are just super damned wrong. Get your poop in a group before you post again.


Quote:
I guess the strike is the only thing that needs fixed to bring the new players in
New content would bring players in. This is a post about fixing the strike fighter, an undertuned ship class that would require very little dev time to fix compared to say:
> Writing a whole new tutorial
> Getting cross server for just GSF (important, hard), or all of SWTOR (very important, a little harder)
> Adding a pve mode

Sure, those things would help, but the thread is how to fix strikes. You can be angry because a dev isn't doing what you want (a complete redesign), but you SHOULD be happy that they are addressing game balance.

The fact is, gunships, scouts, and bombers all see high level play. All are good at their jobs, and all work together. Strikes are mostly left out, and if we can get that fixed- which, I can't stress enough, is both the name of the thread and the stated dev intentions- then that will help the game.

Being insulted that the devs aren't fixing the things YOU want fixed (even though they in many cases aren't broken because you don't understand what you are seeing, and in other cases would be really expensive changes) is ludicrous. We wanna fix strikes, the devs are looking into it, and you are just a poison rash.

Quote:
but since we are not the top forum aces what we say doesn't matter
You use "forum" and "keyboard" as if everyone talking here doesn't have thousands of games under their belt. We actually play GSF, and we see each other in game pretty often, on many servers- even the Euro servers, and this isn't the Euro forums. If you don't recognize many of the thread participants from in game, I can only assume you haven't played many games, or on many servers. Certainly if you think the empire and republic ships are different we already knew that, but it's funny how hard you are projecting here.

Quote:
you only care as long as you are on top and can have the highest kill count then anybody else and don't want that to change
Uh, we like the game, sure. But why would we spend all this time talking about balance if we just wanted to farm hard? We already farm hard. We can do that in the existing meta ships. We want the meta to be broader. That's because we like the game, and want it to be better. More baseless claims from your haterade supplier.

Quote:
. there was a thread that said screw GSF he wasn't going to play any more . you didn't listen to him then . you told him to stay around just so you can keep your kill count up .
We told him to get better, and explained how. He understood that, and is probably a better GSF pilot right now. He came here frustrated and left having learned stuff. What should we have said? "Oh, this guy who doesn't understand anything about the game is confused. I guess we should all get behind him, and ask for huge expensive redesigns to a game that works great, just because some rando does not, after a few games, understand enough to be having a good time."

Gimme a break.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.05.2015 , 02:00 PM | #415
Quote: Originally Posted by clcooper View Post
tif you want new players to join and stay don't you think you should listen to the new players also not just all the old players .
Not really, no. The few new player posts we get are broadly "how do I" (and we wrote a bunch of guides, and point them there) and "waaah" (and we explain why, stop crying). Players are only new for a brief amount of time. It would be nice to keep more new players, but this is an arcade flight sim wrapped in a wow-style MMO. A new player coming in with ideas based on literal false information doesn't deserve consideration. If everyone walked in with the same problems, we would probably address that (ex: a lot of players think it's all about gear, so we can point to good players ripping face with no gear). But instead, it's just random misunderstandings, based on fly-by-night posters who never contribute or understand, and just post a bunch of badly informed complaints.

No, the game should not be built around them. No, that's not how to get new players to stay. No, it has no merit to consider that.

Quote:
where one ship will always be the better choice until the next buff or what ever you call it comes out and then that ship will be the only ship worth flying . or do you want it so all ship can fly .
This is silly. You are saying things you've seen in other games. GSF has never had this. We've hardly had any balance changes, and they have been minor. In fact, we all want strikes fixed. Right now, you can fly three of four ship types competitively. We want the first. There's no "one best ship" right now. Buffing strike fighters is exactly what is needed so that more ships show up in the meta. That's the point of this thread.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Drakkolich's Avatar


Drakkolich
06.05.2015 , 03:46 PM | #416
Quote: Originally Posted by clcooper View Post
burst laser cannon
condor WPD 20.8 ROF 80 500m 1008 ??m 625 ??m 514 lv 0
quarrel WPD 20,0 ROF 80 500m 833 ??m 625 ??m ?? lv 0
the last time I was in school these numbers are all not the same . but they are the same gun same level of no upgrade . but a different ship .

laser cannon
nova WPD 19 ROF 150 500m 791 ??m 735 ??m 550 lv ??
war carrier WPD 20.5 ROF 162 500m 897 ??m 833 ??m 635 lv 3
condor WPD 20.5 ROF 162 500m 903 ??m 897 ??m 683 lv 3

light laser cannon

war carrier WPD 20.5 ROF 162 500m 995 ??m 770 ??m 624 lv ?
condor WPD 20.5 ROF 162 500m 1053 ??m 832 ??m 674 lv ?
nova WPD 21 ROF 180 500m ??m ??m lv 0
quarrel WPD 20.4 ROF 194 500m 1108 ??m 873 ??m 708 lv 4

as you can see the numbers are NOT the same . and some that are upgraded are different as the same level upgrades . and better then a higher level upgrade.
and if you need I will go back and find what should be where the ?? are . the stats if not there are the same .

so if I have numbers like this but you don't . would that mean there is a problem with the game . my numbers should be the same as your numbers at the same level with the same upgrades with the same crew member . and I am telling it is not .
I'm really really happy you posted these numbers this tells me exactly why you are confused. It's clearly the capacitors that are messing you up.

To this end I have once again made you a short video showing how weapons can change from ship to ship even if they have the same upgrades.
Here is that video.


There is nothing wrong with your game, you just aren't using the same capacitors on different ships. The capacitor minor components affect your weapon stats.
DrakolichDrakolÝch
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tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.05.2015 , 03:46 PM | #417
Speaking of "on-topic" thing, this is more a "wall of crazy" kind of thing, but hey thoughts and ideas, are thoughts and Ideas.


Obviously being a "wall of crazy" this has nothing to do with my past stuff.


Ok so the idea is a "duel ammo" system for missiles. Essentially there is a max ammo (what we have now) and there is a "in the chamber" ammo, where you can have more then 1 (say 2 for protons, 3 for Concs and 4 for clusters just fo an example) missile loaded at a time, once you fire the first missile you begin reloading according to the reload timer until the max "in chamber" ammo capacity is reached again. This would make reload timers still relevant while ALSO allowing for burst missile usage.

Along SIDE this particular wall of crazy is if your missiles locked on the in range target automatically and the tone just went off when it was complete then you could right click for the number of missiles you wanted to fire. Obviously with this way the "you are being locked" warning tone would go away instead only having a "missile is in the air" tone when it is fired kind of like Missile sentry drones and seeker mines. This way again you can control the burst, you could fire one missile and watch them break to immediately start relocking, then fire another watch the break relock and then fire what ever missiles are left in the chamber for massive burst damage. Though missile damages and the like might have to be looked at with this system.


ANOTHER part of this wall of crazy, is maybe you would lock on a max number of targets at a time, IE you dont actually have to target any one but you big locking on everyone in your arc that is in range, and then right click and the missiles are fired at ALL targets. Now obviously this one has downsides when it comes to bursting one target and the reloads could really hurt this one, but that's why its a wall of crazy.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.05.2015 , 03:59 PM | #418
Quote: Originally Posted by Drakkolich View Post
I'm really really happy you posted these numbers this tells me exactly why you are confused. It's clearly the capacitors that are messing you up.

To this end I have once again made you a short video showing how weapons can change from ship to ship even if they have the same upgrades.
Here is that video.


There is nothing wrong with your game, you just aren't using the same capacitors on different ships. The capacitor minor components affect your weapon stats.

To add to drak's weapon explination and Cooper YOUR engine efficiency issue from stock ships on one side to upgraded ships on the other side. The easy explination is Quick Charge shields. I am almost certain your upgraded ship (if its a strike) is using Directionals, while your Stock strike is automatically equiped with Quick Charge shields.


Quick charge shield Stats.

Shield Max Power (capacity) -30%
Power Shield Regen Rate +45%
Power engine Regen rate (when recently consumed) +45%

That last one makes a HUGE difference in engine efficiency and boost length. There is no delay for Recently consumed, the regen delay is between Recently consumed regen to full Regen. As such the Recently consumed Regen rate which is affected by quick charge shields is always on even while boosting. You are seeing more energy in engines on a stock ship because the stock ship starts with a shield that gives you that energy while usually the first thing any one does is get rid of that shield for directionals or charged plating sacrificing engine efficiency and regen for beefier shields.



Edit: The first thing every new pilot must learn, is they likely dont know anything. The next is when a veteran pilot tells you that you are wrong and is trying to help, believe them, they have a lot more games as well as a lot more time spent in both Stock ships and mastered ships and they have a lot more time spent tweaking out every little component of thier ship to Min/Max the best ship for them, many know component stats with out even having to look at them, and they have tried and looked at probably everything you have tried and looked at + 10x more. Yes you are wrong, its not your fault, the information is just not always clearly presented, dont get angry at it, its there, but its easy to miss.


By the way if you are hung up on the fact that draks ships were all fully upgraded then the easy explination between Quarrel and Condor is REALLY easy.... 1 has a capacitor, the other doesnt... Thus they will have different stats even if not upgraded. Cus a unupgraded capacitor still does something.


Edit 2: this does show another issue though, technically Cooper doesnt have false information, rather his problem is entirely understanding the information presented to him. Be it Accuracy vs Evasion, or how minor components or crew members or upgrades affect a ships stats or a ships weapons stats. As we can see we have a new player that's clearly been confused by all the information the game is feeding him, and such an information overload is messing with his entire perception of the game, be it game balance, faction balance, or ship balance he is just unable to proccess all the information that the game is trying to give him. He thinks imp is, on average, more accurate stock, when the stats and the facts are Republic is, all because Imps on his server stack evasion and Republic does not. I dont even know how often, if ever, he uses wingman on Imp side as that could result in 14% more accuracy for 20 seconds every minute. Or if he is near allies that are doing the same this could be 14% more accuracy for most of the game. In addition to opponents having potentially 30% less evasion and that's easily the "50% more accurate" (which is likely hyperbole to begin with) thing right there especially if he is dealing with smaller tracking penalties most of the time do to less skilled republic pilots, but again the games intel isnt arranged in a way for him to understand that even though that is what's going on, though this thread again has nothing to do with that since this is devs asking about strikes because of their lack of competitive play.

Verain's Avatar


Verain
06.05.2015 , 04:26 PM | #419
Actually, now that he's posting his stuff, this will resolve nicely.

Here's some more details on this:

1)- All ships of a type have identical possible upgrades.
2)- Each class of ship (strike, scout, gunship, bomber) has a set of base abilities. These are modified by whatever is on them.
3)- Each TYPE of ship (type 1 scout, type 3 bomber, etc) has a certain set of possible components. This list determines that ship's capabilities.
4)- Each COMPONENT has a different set of choices.

For instance, if you look at burst laser cannon on a Quarrel, it will be different than burst laser cannon on a Condor. This difference is due entirely to the fact that the Condor has a capacitor component increasing its range, damage, or rate of fire, and the Quarrel doesn't get this Capacitor component.

Different component types- for instance, quick charge versus directionals as pointed out- have different effects, stated when you look at them. Quick charge reduces your maximum shielding, but increases your rate of shield regeneration, as well as your booster regeneration while boosting (takes you a bit longer to run out of juice).


Each ship has crewmembers. The crewmembers modify several components. For each of the four slots (offensive, defensive, engineering, sensors) there are four possible upgrades, of which each crewmember has exactly two. Whatever crew passives you want, some set of crewmembers can get you EXACTLY that set of passives.

The copilot grants you an active, and that's chosen from your four crewmembers. You can always find exactly the copilot ability you want too.

The factional difference is this: if you choose exactly what passives you want, you may not have your copilot ability of choice available on one faction, but you could have it on another.

Example: If you want Bypass, on Republic you have a couple good crewmembers that give you this. They are "good" because they have passives you want. On Empire, you are forced to give up the "accuracy" passive to get Bypass- and this passive is very good indeed.
In practice, this barely matters- the sensor crewmembers on both sides have passives that don't matter much, and have very excellent actives (running interference and the general top choice wingman). This means that these crewmembers are selected for their actives, and the others for their passives, in most cases.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

CommanderKiko's Avatar


CommanderKiko
06.06.2015 , 09:41 AM | #420
I'm glad that this misunderstanding came to a peaceable resolution so that we could get back on topic, but at the same time I feel we have covered a lot already.

We all agree that a major first step to fixing strike fighters isn't fixing strike fighters, but rather fixing the tool tips and already broken weapons (such as RFL.) We also feel that the strike fighters don't need to be made exceedingly OP in order to be competitive, but rather the basic abilities they have need buffed so as to not be utterly useless. We can agree, to some extent, that strike fighters need to logically be able to out-preform every specialized ship outside of it's specialized role - but not out preform them at what they are good at. We came up with countless walls of text as to our personal ideas of how to achieve this. We also in general feel as if though the strike fighters secondaries need some amount of resistance to lock-breaks, and there are several ways to achieve this.

I'm sure no one would complain if more ideas were brought up, but as there are already over 40 pages here for the devs to look through add external links, this is going to be some intense light reading already.
GM of Defiant Industries LLC (GSF/PvP)
GM of Defiant Security Services (GSF, new)
- Kik˛, Bastion.