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Balance the Force? What a terrible idea


Trolltar

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One of the things about the prequels that always bothered me is the length. Why didn’t the prequels end after Qui Gon asked the Jedi Council to train Anakin? If I had been on the Jedi Counsel the conversation would have gone like this:

 

Qui Gon: I’ve found this little kid. His force mite count is through the roof. I’m pretty sure it’s the kid from the prophecy. I want to train him as a Jedi.

 

Trolltar: You think this boy is the one to bring balance to the force?

 

Qui Gon: Yes

 

Trolltar: Then chop his head off.

 

Qui Gon: What the heck are you talking about master?

 

Trolltar: Qui Gon, you seem confused. The last time you walked around town did you bump into the Sith Temple? No, of course you didn’t. There isn’t a Sith temple. You know why that is? Because the Sith are basically extinct. You’re pretty sure you found one on planet sand, which brings the total number of known Sith up to a grand total of one. There are like a thousand of us. We’re winning. We’re kicking their butts. We have an outsized role in determining how things go down all over the galaxy. I always get seated at whatever restaurant I go into. Last week I was invited to the premiere of Indiana Jones XXIV.

 

Qui Gon: I still don’t understand

 

Trolltar: Good grief man. The last thing we want is for the force to be balanced. We like it unbalanced. We like the fact that we live it up here on Coruscant while the handful of Sith in the Galaxy are hiding on some swamp world somewhere. If there’s a kid out there that can potentially end all of this then we need to get to the part where we kill him, and damn quick. Cause the only way for the force to be balanced is to add a thousand Sith, or subtract a thousand Jedi. Neither is very appealing to me.

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Yeah, seems dumb on the outside.

 

Thing is, and this isn't pointed out until Attack of the Clones, the Force is not in balance, the Dark Side is ascendant. Even though (the Jedi believe, until the end of TPM), there are no Sith, the Dark Side of the Force has eclipsed the Jedi's abilities. This is the point of the conversation between Mace Windu and Yoda in AotC, where they start talking about the Clone Army and end with their diminished ability to use the Force. That's because of the shroud of the Dark Side, which is clouding their abilities (and through which Anakin catches the ultimately self-destructive visions of Padme dying.)

 

So, the thought that Anakin would eliminate this Dark Side shroud (according to Lucas, eliminating the Dark Side itself, which is a cancer in the Force, rather than the Yin-Yang duality it's commonly thought of as), was very appealing to the Jedi.

 

Of course, the Jedi themselves were no longer the bastions of light they believed themselves to be, their Order bound by a thousand years of tradition and overly-conservative thinking. Anakin's job, in the grander scheme of things, was to hit the rest button on both Jedi and Sith, paving the way for a new Jedi Order that could adapt to the changing needs of the galaxy.

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I have to admit I have always thought that Anakin did fulfill the prophecy. He brought a semblence of balance to the Force by removing the imbalance caused by all the Jedi.

 

How can the Force be balanced when it is currently massively weighted in favour of the Jedi? Well by removing all the Jedi :p

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He brought a semblence of balance to the Force by removing the imbalance caused by all the Jedi.

 

Actually according to GL, that nearly destroyed the balance.

 

Because according to him, the Dark Side was the imbalance, and needed to be destroyed to restore balance to the Force. Which in it's natural state is only Light side. The Sith and other Dark Jedi destroyed the balance by using the Force they way they did.

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I'm not argusing with you, I appreciate you're quoting someone else. it's just that balance implies postive and negative. Darkside and the Lightside.

 

For their to be balance, the two must be as close together as they can be.

Edited by QuiJonPed
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it's just that balance implies postive and negative.

 

That does seem to be the most logical way to view it. But again according to George Lucas, that's not what he meant.

 

It does make some sense if you consider that the Force = Life, which seems to be the case. The Dark side is about death and destruction, which would make it imbalanced in regards to the Force. Also in prequels Qui-gon talks about the Living Force, and how it guides you.

 

So if that is true, and the Force is a semi-sentient thing, then it further stands to reason that anything that runs counter to the will of that thing, is out of balance with that thing.\

 

The Jedi follow the Force and let IT guide them. Sith/Dark Jedi use the Force and bend it to Their will.

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As good as your paragraph was as i did enjoy it :), palpatine wasn't hiding on a swamp, he would have soon became supreme chancellor as anakin did not play a role in his election, furthermore he would have probably found another jedi with complete mummy issues, manipulated them and boom with the clone army (which anakin did not have a role in creating or the decision of them either) no more jedi. When you think about it, what was anakins role O_O...

 

To a dark place this line of thought will take us.

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#1 GL's grasp on his own IP is inconsistent at best and berserk retconny as a norm, so even though this is "his" universe, subject to his insanity and hamfisted sand castle-building, anyone who plays in his universe will still try to make sense of it. Hence, the view that dark and light should be balanced, and not that balance is the absence of one in favor of the other.

 

#2 (the spoilers for Darth Plagueis) Apparently that darkness that nerfed the Jedi's ability to do anything useful at all was a deliberate act by Plagueis and a young Sidious. The ripped into the force to create an effect that muzzled Jedi precognitive and sensitive abilities, which is how both were able to explicitly manipulate the Senate without discovery.

 

#3 As an aside, considering the view that life=light side and death=darkside, you'd have thought that meat-grindering millions of clones would have an a far more adverse affect on the force than a pair of universe-equivalent neckbeards in a basement launching ddos attacks on Jedi sensitivity.

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Lucas' idea that the Dark Side is a cancer and destroying it brings balance is thankfully ignored by everyone that matters. IE every single writer involved in Star Wars.

 

The current Dawn of the Jedi comics series, which explores the original founders of what would eventually become the Jedi have a much more logical view - balance is actually balance - too much Light or Dark is equally bad.

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I'm not argusing with you, I appreciate you're quoting someone else. it's just that balance implies postive and negative. Darkside and the Lightside.

 

For their to be balance, the two must be as close together as they can be.

 

But Lucas says Light-Side is Balance. Dark-Side is cancer.

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Balance doesn't necessarily mean the balance between Light and Dark.

 

Balance can be viewed as the "natural order of things." Life and death, order and chaos, that sort of thing. The Dark Side is often described as the perversion of that which is natural. It's not simply "death," but death in heinous ways for horrible reasons. Nor is it life, but it can twist life into unnatural mockeries. It can be a force of chaos, but it can also be oppressive, stifling order. It is, in essence, the unnatural reflection of everything in the universe, twisting what it touches into things unnatural.

 

Eliminating the Dark Side would allow things to return to a "natural" balance. Order and choas are neither good nor evil in and of themselves, but both can be made to serve the Dark Side. By eliminating the Dark Side, order and chaos return to their natural states, as forces with both positive and negative qualities, with the optimum being the balance between the two. Likewise, life and death can return to a natural balance, wherein everything dies, as it is naturally meant to, but the taking of a life can still lead to dangerous consequences, as can the preservation of life beyond its cause, or the "use" of life in ways for which it was never intended. The "unnatural" influence of the Dark Side is gone, preventing the twisting and perverting of life and death that the Sith have been famous for.

 

Viewing "Light" and "Dark" as the ONLY kind of balance is a rather narrow perspective.

 

Now, that having been said, I do prefer the idea that the Dark Side lives on after Palpatine's death, because it creates more interesting stories (sadly, most EU authors have told crappy stories about it.)

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Wait, are you actually saying that there is something in prequels that doesn't make sense? :rolleyes:

 

Yeah George shouldn't have used the word "balance" to descripe that prohpecy, but rather say something like "it is foreseen that this boy will destroy the sith once and for all" or something like that.

Edited by Zeratho
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Viewing "Light" and "Dark" as the ONLY kind of balance is a rather narrow perspective.

 

Now, that having been said, I do prefer the idea that the Dark Side lives on after Palpatine's death, because it creates more interesting stories (sadly, most EU authors have told crappy stories about it.)

 

I wish the movies were more clear on the whole Dark-Side-as-cancer theme. As you point out, it would have made the extended universe more difficult to conceive, but it also would have made for less of the lazy logic that pervades the limited amount of EU content to which I've been exposed.

 

For instance, the main thing that bothers me about the KoTOR-verse (including, perhaps even especially within, SWTOR), is the frequent and nearly consequence-free switching between Fallen and Redeemed. Anakin is redeemed in the movies, but the huge cost of his fall (and his redemption, which he fails to survive) is exhaustively documented for the audience. He's also the only example.

 

In the games? Too often the Dark Side's influence is a transparent plot device, excusing the heinous acts of some characters when it's convenient. "You slaughtered 1,000 people, but it's ok because you're all better now." At other times, the Dark Side's (apparently) exculpatory properties are totally ignored for no obvious reason. The subtext is pretty unattractive when you think about it: the Jedi apparently have the (self-serving) authority to excuse their comrades for any bad act. In theory, you could have Jedi running around robbing people blind and they could resort to the Dark-side-made-me-do-it defense. Johnny Cochran, eat your heart out.

 

In real life, if we had a class of super-human beings whose very source of power could at any moment make them homicidal maniacs, then they'd not only get locked up after they turned bad no matter what apologies they offer; we'd have a real dilemma about how to treat them even pre-corruption. In any case, it'd be a very uncomfortable situation, a situation that the games don't adequately explore, IMO:

 

 

In KoTOR I, the Jedi do express concern about the redemption of Revan, but there are other cases through the first two games where turning to the Dark Side is treated very casually.

 

In SWTOR's Consular storyline, the entire first act revolves around the notion that being corrupted by the Dark Side isn't your fault. I say that as someone who enjoyed the Consular storyline a lot.

 

 

TL;DR - Obviously there are inconsistencies in any story that the audience can and should overlook. I don't mean to say that the DS/LS plot quirks ruin the games, just that they represent one area of the story that cause a little cognitive dissonance. The idea that the movies describe a temporary abnormality in the Force, induced by a great villain, makes sense to me. The idea that the Jedi are champions of a Force that can randomly turn you into Hitler (and back again) as a rule? Not so much.

 

* - A small added disclaimer: My criticism is limited to the games because they're the only EU material with which I'm immediately familiar. The last time I read an EU book was about twenty years ago (Zahn's first Thrawn trilogy). From what I've heard, I haven't missed much. The intent here isn't to single Bioware out. If anyone deserves blame here, I think it's George Lucas, for introducing the redemption theme without qualifying it in a plausible way before authorizing the production of countless movie-spin-off products.

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As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful- it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

 

--George Lucas

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: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. ."

 

--George Lucas

 

Willingly exterminated a room full of children who trusted him.

 

Exterminated a roomful of heads of state, likely leaving their cultures to plunge into chaos.

 

Presided over the annihilation of Alderaan.

 

Attempted to kill his extremely pregnant wife with virtually no provocation.

 

Pursued a campaign of terror and oppression against nonhumans.

 

Killed people at the slightest provocation with force choke, anyone around him without regard to rank or position.

 

But it's totally cool because he saved his son after watching him be tortured for several minutes.

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Willingly exterminated a room full of children who trusted him.

 

Exterminated a roomful of heads of state, likely leaving their cultures to plunge into chaos.

 

Presided over the annihilation of Alderaan.

 

Attempted to kill his extremely pregnant wife with virtually no provocation.

 

Pursued a campaign of terror and oppression against nonhumans.

 

Killed people at the slightest provocation with force choke, anyone around him without regard to rank or position.

 

But it's totally cool because he saved his son after watching him be tortured for several minutes.

 

Lucas: "You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster. He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he’s a monster in that he’s turned to the Dark Side and he’s serving a bad master and he’s into power and he’s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he’s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, “I know there’s still good in you, I can sense it.” Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he’s a monster, does he redeem himself."

 

Lucas: "If you start with Star Wars, then Vader's just the villain, and that's it. But you don't realize that he's a human being, that he's got problems you don't realize that he could have been saved, that he was tricked and can be resurrected."

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As good as your paragraph was as i did enjoy it :), palpatine wasn't hiding on a swamp, he would have soon became supreme chancellor as anakin did not play a role in his election, furthermore he would have probably found another jedi with complete mummy issues, manipulated them and boom with the clone army (which anakin did not have a role in creating or the decision of them either) no more jedi. When you think about it, what was anakins role O_O...

 

To a dark place this line of thought will take us.

 

His role was to screw Padme, to give birth to Luke Skywalker, the most overpowered Jedi of all time.

 

He has to be, since he's got vapor between his ears until episode 6, and he doesn't even come nowhere near intelligent enough until after the Yuuzan Vong invasion.

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Darth Vader was an anti-hero in the same vein as Michael Moorcock's Elric.

 

Yeah, he's bad, and he's a bad-*ss, but he serves his purpose for the story. It's classic Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey. Fall from grace, and then redemption. Nothing more, nothing less. He brings balance by realizing his mistakes and correcting them (albeit on a completely CONTRIVED basis in the movies ... GL didn't lead up to that enough, but I can forgive him for the time-frame constraints of the movies back then).

 

If GL was to make those movies from scratch today (despite his inadequacies as a writer), I think he would have come up with a lot better premise and setup for 4-6. 1-3 would have been a lot more interesting (despite the cast and story), if 4-6 had been a lot less campy.

 

Imagine a Star Wars reboot, told in today's world. It would be a lot darker (as it would NEED to be for something of this nature), and a lot more driven by emotion and passion (a Sith's raison d'etre). And it would be much more adult, without so many campy lines (I can't watch the series anymore because everyone is spouting off every five seconds: I have a bad feeling about this.)

 

The Force, IMHO, is nothing more than Nature itself. Both the Jedi and the Sith perverted that natural progression, and Vader was the one to bring it back into balance. Unfortunately, in the EU, Luke recreates the Jedi Order, which will start the cascade to bringing back imbalance.

 

The grey jedi had it right: There is no light or dark side, so to speak: There is only the Force. (GL aside ... though as an author myself, I can perfectly understand him saying "The Light Side is ONLY the Force, and in balance. The dark side is a perversion of that." I don't agree with him on that at all, but it's his universe, and he can do with it what he pleases.")

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Darth Vader was an anti-hero in the same vein as Michael Moorcock's Elric.

 

Yeah, he's bad, and he's a bad-*ss, but he serves his purpose for the story. It's classic Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey. Fall from grace, and then redemption. Nothing more, nothing less. He brings balance by realizing his mistakes and correcting them (albeit on a completely CONTRIVED basis in the movies ... GL didn't lead up to that enough, but I can forgive him for the time-frame constraints of the movies back then).

 

If GL was to make those movies from scratch today (despite his inadequacies as a writer), I think he would have come up with a lot better premise and setup for 4-6. 1-3 would have been a lot more interesting (despite the cast and story), if 4-6 had been a lot less campy.

 

Imagine a Star Wars reboot, told in today's world. It would be a lot darker (as it would NEED to be for something of this nature), and a lot more driven by emotion and passion (a Sith's raison d'etre). And it would be much more adult, without so many campy lines (I can't watch the series anymore because everyone is spouting off every five seconds: I have a bad feeling about this.)

 

The Force, IMHO, is nothing more than Nature itself. Both the Jedi and the Sith perverted that natural progression, and Vader was the one to bring it back into balance. Unfortunately, in the EU, Luke recreates the Jedi Order, which will start the cascade to bringing back imbalance.

 

The grey jedi had it right: There is no light or dark side, so to speak: There is only the Force. (GL aside ... though as an author myself, I can perfectly understand him saying "The Light Side is ONLY the Force, and in balance. The dark side is a perversion of that." I don't agree with him on that at all, but it's his universe, and he can do with it what he pleases.")

 

I've always said that the Jedi are future space druids.

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True that, but when in lore has the Dark Side and the Light Side been balanced in any way?

First there are a lot of Jedi and a few Sith, and then a small amount of very powerful Sith against an aging goblin, an old kook, and a young farmer. And then the Sith get wiped out (again) leading to a new Jedi order...

 

Balance in the Force has probably really never existed, there is always more of one side or the other.

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