A friend of mine, we're both Powertechs, both specced exactly the same (7/3/31), we got our stats nearly exactly the same. (Those we itemized exactly the same mine are better due to having nearly full EWH, had to pull out old mods/enhancements/armorings from the bank and re-itemize myself. Total cost... a lot)

Both at 1390 expertise he has .4 more Ranged/Tech bonus damage than I do. We used 1390 expertise over 1396 expertise and 1208 expertise over 1214 expertise respectively because he did not have EWH relics. That was as close as we could get it with the stuff we had. (We spent a lot of credits pulling mods etc to get our gear identical, I had more 63 pieces min/maxed so and not enough of the 61's to make it exact but a is ONLY .4 bonus damage difference.)

Screenshot of me with 1390 expertise

http://imageshack.us/f/203/screenshot2013020223010.jpg/

Screenshot of him with 1390 expertise

http://imageshack.us/f/822/screenshot2013020223011.jpg/

Screenshot of me with 1208 expertise

http://imageshack.us/f/842/screenshot2013020223114.jpg/

I then took out both power crystals and replaced them with expertise. I then took out two PvP Armorings and put 2 PvE armorings. This increased my bonus damage from 633.9 to 669.1. I gained 35.2 bonus damage.

We flame bursted each other, and only counted NON-CRITS up to 100 flame bursts each.

His highest Flame burst hit was 1224

My highest Flame burst hit was 1216

His lowest Flame Burst hit was 1162

My lowest Flame burst hit was 1156

His total damage done: 119300

My total damage done: 118503

There you go, the difference is miniscule, but there is one. Max expertise does more damage than 1200 when equally geared. You also receive more healing from max expertise. If you calculate the very small extra crit from going 1208 expertise, you might even say they are even or it's SLIGHTLY more damage. But, you gain more healing received. Now, I'd love to have a healer heal us 100 times in outlaws den so I can see the difference.

These are the individual hits below.

Mine His

------ --------

1160 1170

1198 1172

1170 1189

1208 1212

1210 1181

1186 1211

1205 1187

1199 1205

1175 1178

1207 1209

1195 1215

1189 1214

1198 1166

1160 1183

1195 1219

1194 1180

1166 1208

1193 1177

1164 1214

1179 1163

1208 1195

1160 1211

1178 1173

1193 1186

1190 1204

1189 1194

1165 1197

1178 1199

1173 1162

1193 1179

1162 1192

1195 1193

1157 1182

1171 1217

1212 1208

1180 1215

1181 1222

1193 1179

1162 1181

1175 1205

1168 1195

1193 1207

1159 1174

1200 1210

1200 1178

1184 1175

1184 1175

1204 1177

1171 1196

1195 1177

1198 1201

1175 1163

1191 1187

1192 1177

1214 1219

1178 1221

1186 1184

1197 1183

1205 1195

1171 1209

1211 1212

1156 1168

1205 1168

1177 1188

1215 1186

1216 1210

1158 1183

1191 1162

1158 1174

1196 1202

1189 1186

1197 1224

1186 1166

1176 1183

1158 1216

1179 1216

1166 1205

1175 1185

1188 1198

1175 1195

1175 1179

1200 1170

1207 1207

1160 1205

1179 1185

1211 1211

1187 1209

1162 1218

1197 1200

1178 1191

1207 1181

1162 1214

1197 1218

1160 1181

1158 1207

1207 1164

1162 1194

1211 1220

1211 1202

1169 1167

Now I don't know who made those original graphs showing the expertise curve.

But they made a mistake.

Do DPS PT's get to take the aim bonus?

Kind of throws it off if you didn't

Not to mention you should have been hitting something with the same expertise the whole way through. Not hitting each other......

Do DPS PT's get to take the aim bonus?

 

Kind of throws it off if you didn't

 

Not to mention you should have been hitting something with the same expertise the whole way through. Not hitting each other......

We both took 2/3 in the aim bonus. As I said in my post, we both are specced exactly the same.

Our defensive stats are identical when he has 1390 expertise and me at 1208 expertise. Look at the screenshots

4965 armor rating

31.49% damage reduction

If we both had identical bonus damage and stats as well as EXPERTISE, and hit something with the same expertise, we are going to do THE SAME DAMAGE.

This is a comparison of someone with 1208 expertise and 1390 expertise.

I have proved that with 1208 expertise you hit someone with 1390 expertise for less than they would hit you back for (On average)

You get ZERO benefit from going 1214 expertise (or 1208) other than a psychological one from having a stat sheet that shows more bonus damage (35.2). But you lose out on healing received. As more players now begin to stack max expertise, you will begin to take MORE damage from multiple sources while doing LESS to the target you are on.

http://tinypic.com/r/15wz8du/6

Graph for people who are slower in life.

http://tinypic.com/r/15wz8du/6

 

 

Graph for people who are slower in life.

This is the PT who endured my testing today.

Now I don't know who made those original graphs showing the expertise curve.

 

But they made a mistake.

the graphs showing expertise diminishing returns are correct, and really have nothing to do with what you tested. those graphs are simply visual representations for the different expertise bonuses; they have nothing to do with how different players' expertise values relate to one another in practical application.

and imo, the results of your test give less credibility to your claim that 1396 expertise is better than 1214

the difference in both max hit and total damage was .7% in favor of 1390 expertise. less than 1%

this shows that they are virtually interchangeable, both from a damage output and a survivabiltiy standpoint.

as far as your expertise healing affect incoming heals, i do not know if that is the case. i would suspect that they only affect heals you cast

the graphs showing expertise diminishing returns are correct, and really have nothing to do with what you tested. those graphs are simply visual representations for the different expertise bonuses; they have nothing to do with how different players' expertise values relate to one another in practical application.

This is the biggest thing. The claim is that the values demonstrated by the proven formula and the character sheet are wrong, yet he never tackles this. Maybe he never understood how it worked, but he's yet to come back to this.

the graphs showing expertise diminishing returns are correct, and really have nothing to do with what you tested. those graphs are simply visual representations for the different expertise bonuses; they have nothing to do with how different players' expertise values relate to one another in practical application.

 

and imo, the results of your test give less credibility to your claim that 1396 expertise is better than 1214

 

the difference in both max hit and total damage was .7% in favor of 1390 expertise. less than 1%

 

this shows that they are virtually interchangeable, both from a damage output and a survivabiltiy standpoint.

 

as far as your expertise healing affect incoming heals, i do not know if that is the case. i would suspect that they only affect heals you cast

What has been said historically on these forums is that after 1200 stacking expertise is a waste. What I think is a waste is spending 2-3 million credits on PvE armorings that provide damage numbers that are "virtually interchangeable".

The fact is that the damage difference is essentially negligible, when so many have said that 1214 expertise does more damage than 1396. I've just proven that this isn't the case and you get a larger benefit from going max expertise as your damage will be .7% higher.

All I've proven to those reading this thread is, save your money, don't spend it on PvE armorings or Power Crystals.

looks negligible. people trying to get around 1200 expertise seem to be wasting their time, but they're not exactly getting weaker for it.

the difference may be on a healer.

The one thing I cannot explain is why it is EASIER for my healers to heal me with 1396 expertise versus a PT with 1214 expertise.

Someone should test that, I've done enough testing.

This is the biggest thing. The claim is that the values demonstrated by the proven formula and the character sheet are wrong, yet he never tackles this. Maybe he never understood how it worked, but he's yet to come back to this.

Now maybe its late and I'm tired but last time I checked the way the scientific method worked is that he got credit for disproving the null hypothesis of 1200 expertise then power is better than max expertise. Yes usually a scientist would offer up a theory on why the null hypothesis was wrong, but even if that theory is wrong he still gets credit for disproving the null hypothesis. The exception would be if other people try to recreate his experiment and don't get the same results. But no one is claiming that yet, so he gets credit and has to prove nothing more, it would just be nice if he offered his theory on why and then went and tested that. Not mandatory.

http://tinypic.com/r/15wz8du/6

 

 

Graph for people who are slower in life.

... Yeah, wonderful graph.

http://imageshack.us/a/img405/6521/chart1k.png

Now maybe its late and I'm tired but last time I checked the way the scientific method worked is that he got credit for disproving the null hypothesis of 1200 expertise then power is better than max expertise. Yes usually a scientist would offer up a theory on why the null hypothesis was wrong, but even if that theory is wrong he still gets credit for disproving the null hypothesis. The exception would be if other people try to recreate his experiment and don't get the same results. But no one is claiming that yet, so he gets credit and has to prove nothing more, it would just be nice if he offered his theory on why and then went and tested that. Not mandatory.

That's not what he was attempting to prove though. The differences in the different exp levels have been known for a long time. He's been the one to tack on "the character sheet is wrong" "the graph is wrong" etc, which he continues to state but has yet to address.

That's not what he was attempting to prove though. The differences in the different exp levels have been known for a long time. He's been the one to tack on "the character sheet is wrong" "the graph is wrong" etc, which he continues to state but has yet to address.

According to every mad scientist or Mathematician on these forums, their math is based off of the character sheet. 1214 expertise is supposed to OUTPERFORM 1396 by a noticeable margin. I have proven it does not, and that max expertise outperforms 1214 expertise in the test that I've run.

So if the numbers the original people based their formulas came from the Character sheet, and I've proven that it is not actually the case in the in-game application of expertise, then doesn't that say that the Character Sheet is incorrect in some way?

I'm neither a scientist nor am I a Mathematician

That's not what he was attempting to prove though. The differences in the different exp levels have been known for a long time. He's been the one to tack on "the character sheet is wrong" "the graph is wrong" etc, which he continues to state but has yet to address.

Got it. Yes he needs to prove a new hypothesis before he can argue that the character sheet data is wrong. Point.

According to every mad scientist on these forums, and their math based off of the character sheet. 1214 expertise is supposed to OUTPERFORM 1396 by a noticeable margin.

1) Not according to everyone. If this was meant to be an exaggeration, then while that is a popular viewpoint, it is by no means the consensus.

2) The mathematical backing based on the correct formulas says the difference is marginal. If people are saying otherwise, they aren't using the math correctly, or they don't understand how it works, or both. This has been known for a long time, ever since the current expertise system has been in place.

I have proven it does not, and that max expertise outperforms 1214 expertise in the test that I've run.

3) If you want to take credit for it, OK. In reality, we've been saying since the current expertise system went live / went to PTS that the difference is marginal. The character sheet shows that the difference is marginal. The math shows that the difference is marginal. Your unscientific test shows the difference is marginal. Plenty of first hand experiences shows that the difference is marginal.

So if the numbers the original people based their formulas came from the Character sheet, and I've proven that it is not actually the case in the in-game application of expertise,

Once again, this is mostly an assumption that the people saying the difference isn't marginal are basing it on the sound math from the character sheet and proven formula, something actually paying attention to the formula, character sheet and how damage / healing is calculated doesn't support, but carry on.

then doesn't that say that the Character Sheet is incorrect in some way?

In your hypothetical where you assume these people are basing it off of sound math and the proven formula, then it would. But your hypothetical isn't happening: the character sheet, the formula and the math behind it have always said the difference is marginal.

1) Not according to everyone. If this was meant to be an exaggeration, then while that is a popular viewpoint, it is by no means the consensus.

2) The mathematical backing based on the correct formulas says the difference is marginal. If people are saying otherwise, they aren't using the math correctly, or they don't understand how it works, or both. This has been known for a long time, ever since the current expertise system has been in place.

 

 

 

3) If you want to take credit for it, OK. In reality, we've been saying since the current expertise system went live / went to PTS that the difference is marginal. The character sheet shows that the difference is marginal. The math shows that the difference is marginal. Your unscientific test shows the difference is marginal. Plenty of first hand experiences shows that the difference is marginal.

 

 

 

Once again, this is mostly an assumption that the people saying the difference isn't marginal are basing it on the sound math from the character sheet and proven formula, something actually paying attention to the formula, character sheet and how damage / healing is calculated doesn't support, but carry on.

 

 

In your hypothetical where you assume these people are basing it off of sound math and the proven formula, then it would. But your hypothetical isn't happening: the character sheet, the formula and the math behind it have always said the difference is marginal.

You jelly?

In other news, where you said " we've been saying since the current expertise system went live / went to PTS that the difference is marginal." is actually a lie. You have said nothing of the sort. I've checked your entire post/reply history from before and after 1.2 went live. In fact, you haven't said or done much of anything intelligent except troll this post.

In fact if you look at your post history, the entirety of it is you being condescending to other people. I'm not going to say I haven't done anything like that, you'll probably find I'm a turd a lot, but on the odd occasion I post meaningful information.

What has been said historically on these forums is that after 1200 stacking expertise is a waste. What I think is a waste is spending 2-3 million credits on PvE armorings that provide damage numbers that are "virtually interchangeable".

 

The fact is that the damage difference is essentially negligible, when so many have said that 1214 expertise does more damage than 1396. I've just proven that this isn't the case and you get a larger benefit from going max expertise as your damage will be .7% higher.

 

All I've proven to those reading this thread is, save your money, don't spend it on PvE armorings or Power Crystals.

If we're going to go historic lets go historic.

Historically the only way to use moddable belt and bracers in a PVP set was to use two PVE armorings with two PVP mods. This resulted in a 40 expertise loss (war hero belt and bracers each have 70 expertise) for pretty significant stat gains (if I recall right, the stats on war hero belt/bracers, if you get the ones with high secondary stats, aren't quite as good as a high secondary stat + 61 PVP armorings). You have to remember that until they made offhands moddable for everyone there was absolutely no way of getting an unslotted war hero armoring. Now with Elite War Hero belt/bracers all coming with good mods AND unslotted 63 armorings things have changed.

So before the question was "what will happen if I drop 80 expertise in return for significant stat gains?" and common wisdom was that this was a wash, or slightly superior.

Also historically, the only source of War Hero crystals (+41 expertise) was from War Hero weapons, which were 3475 ranked comms (over 90 or so warzones), or for comms from the general PVP vendor. And God help you if they didn't have a color you wanted (anything but the most basic colors off the general PVP vendor are astronomically priced and are pretty much vanity items). Meanwhile +41 power crystals seemed to drop from the sky, and in lots of more attractive colors.

So the question was now "Can I drop approximately 121/162 expertise (post moddable offhands) in exchange for large upgrades in mainstat, endurance, and power?"

Again, common wisdom was that this was a wash, or slightly superior.

The situation today is somewhat different, but keep in mind that PVE armorings can be usually had for materials, which are very easy to get in large quantities if you know what you're doing. Additionally, some people would prefer to use set bonuses without having to look horrible, so yes there is almost certainly some bias going on because people like having higher bonus damage, like having higher health, and like most of all not looking like the personal dress up doll of a particularly vengeful and petty god, so "a wash or slightly superior" became "definitely the most optimal thing you can do everyone do it!"

There were also, at the same time, arguments from tanking and healing community members who found in practical application that building for more mainstream stats over expertise improved their performance. In healers' cases the thought was that the expertise bonus from healing fell significantly behind the advantages from the expertise fueled boost to PVP healing. In tanks cases I have seen some VERY convincing in game arguments (as in seen tanks actually do this and become impossible to take down) of tanks who forgo quite a lot of expertise in exchange for very large gains in HP and, to a lesser extent, defense. Since Tanks don't care how hard they're hitting, they may or may not be a point. That would require further testing. For healers ,the recommended expertise for healers (I've heard as low as 800-900) may come because of a misunderstanding most people have regarding how the healing bonus is applied in PVP (i.e. does it effect my healing done or my healing received or both?) Understand when I say a misunderstanding may be the cause, I'm saying I don't know exactly how the healing bonus is effecting people in PVP.

Either way the other low expertise arguments are coming from tanks and healers, and this test seems slightly less applicable. Healing because it's an entirely different bonus altogether. Tanking because they're basically following the age old "Mitigation vs Time to Live" argument and it comes down more to playstyle I'd think but I'd still also like to see data on this obviously.

According to every mad scientist or Mathematician on these forums, their math is based off of the character sheet. 1214 expertise is supposed to OUTPERFORM 1396 by a noticeable margin. I have proven it does not, and that max expertise outperforms 1214 expertise in the test that I've run.

 

So if the numbers the original people based their formulas came from the Character sheet, and I've proven that it is not actually the case in the in-game application of expertise, then doesn't that say that the Character Sheet is incorrect in some way?

 

I'm neither a scientist nor am I a Mathematician

actually, correct theorycrafting says that 1214 expertise is within 1% of of damage output for 1396. which is what i posted in your other thread. i dont know what theorycrafting you looked at to get your base-line, but it was wrong. the character sheet is still correct, fyi. always has been.

and using the word "outperforms" is a stretch. a difference of .7% is negligible, and means that there is no tangible difference between 1214 and 1396.

there is clearly a placebo effect w/ 1396 expertise, making you believe that you are harder to kill. neither you nor your healers would be able to tell the difference in healing done between 1214 and 1396; there is ~1% healing bonus separating the two. and that is *if* healing bonus is determined the by target, and not by the healer.

your argument is constantly morphing here. it started out as 1396 being all around better, then become 1396 offers superior defensive capabilities, and now has become 1396 is virtually the same as 1214, so save your creds on PvE armorings and Power crystals. do you see why your credibility is starting to erode?

the only thing that you proved with this experiment is that the extra offensive stats from 1214 is enough to overcome much of the damage negation difference of 1396. which is what i said with the theorycrafting in did in your previous thread.