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Whats the point?


JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
01.24.2020 , 07:57 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by yobear View Post
What is the point of hardmode OPs? Or anything passed VET FPs?
Fun and challenge?
What's the point of playing the game at all, if all you're after are the shinies? 😍

EDIT - Also, I've been playing SWTOR for years, but until recently, I've been in dead guilds. I've only just recently started doing any OPs.
I realize it must be the same old, same old, for people who have done lots of OPs but for some people - especially new players - it's all just fun.

EDIT #2 - I did DXUN story mode last night with a guild-ish group. I'd have to say I was disappointed with the lack of rewards after the hours of slog**. All I got was a couple of materials satchels. I think a bonus set armor piece was dropped once, but I didn't win the role for it.
The rest was the usual pile of 306, and below, crap that I no longer need. Some form of shiny would indeed have been nice.

** Slog, but a fun slog. It was the first Dxun for many of us, so there were a number of wipes and restarts. But given the lack of any reward worth going after, I'm not sure I'd want to do it more than twice more. 🤔
Hold water, a sieve may not, but hold another sieve, it will - Yoda..

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Nemmar's Avatar


Nemmar
01.26.2020 , 05:54 PM | #12
The point of this system is that you can play whatever you enjoy and progress your gear.
If you don't like to run operations, you don't have to. What is questionable is needing to gate progression behind operations forcing everyone into them.

And tbh Dxun drops exclusive tier sets and tacticals. That in itself is already pretty annoying to someone that doesnt have a raid group.
AKA, some people are so engrained on the progression system popularised by WoW that they cant open their mind when a game tries to give you the choice of having fun doing what you want.
No one is forced to do FP's either. At most for 2 days if you want to rush your ilvl.

Darkchip's Avatar


Darkchip
01.26.2020 , 08:07 PM | #13
The point is that Operations are the hardest content in the game and they should drop the highest ilvl gear. The whole reason for a progression system is that it is that you progress towards getting the gear, It has always been get to max level, do flashpoints to get the basic gear, do storymode ops to get the gear to do vet ops, do vets to get gear to do mastermode ops, get BiS gear from mastermode boom you are done.

The reason why alot of people hate this new system is that you can't go anywhere with it and now that it is in the game they can't remove it without pissing off all the casuals that loved getting gear that they are never going to need for the content that they do, That was the whole point of the ops gear it was gear designed to do operations if you don't do them you don't need the gear but people wanted the gear because it was shiny and better then what they had but they didn't either have the time or the want to get into a guild and do a raid to get it.

Now you don't even have to unless you want the stuff out of dxun and i will give my respect to bioware for at least keeping something in a operation but seriously this new system blows and people are going to get burned out because their is going to be no drive to do anything i've been back for nearly a full month and guess what this new system blows, no one ever wants to do anything and the few times i get one of the newer flashpoints everyone just leaves because it isn't lootstation. What are they going to do to fix this i don't know but if they don't do it soon they arn't going to have alot of hardcore players left in the game.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
01.27.2020 , 10:24 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by yobear View Post
What is the point of hardmode OPs? Or anything passed VET FPs? You can accomplish BIS gear by grinding VET for tech frags. Why would you not have anything worth while to be gained clearing the hardest content in the game? Correct me if any of this is wrong, but what i've been told is the best gear for you is the tech frag gear and you don't get anything special from the hardest difficulty OP. Why have it in the game then? How else are you supposed to get 8+ people dedicated enough to spend hours wiping and progressing if not for the better gear that generally looks much better than the casual gear you get from farming easy instances...

This seems to be a really odd model to shape your game off of. How are you supposed to hold someones attention longer than a week when thats all the time you need to get completely BIS across the board?
Returning player here! Gear should never be a goal. One of the reasons why I stopped playing SWTOR (among many) is over the complicated and super gated gearing system. People will not sub longer or play harder content to get gear. The other way round.

Having said that, harder content rewards should come in 3 forms:
1. Unique cosmetics. We have some of that, but there should be more.
2. Rare crafting mats.
3. Credits + maybe high level gear.

However, doing a gear gating should never be the case. Wither it is HM and MM ops or PvP.

FerkWork's Avatar


FerkWork
01.27.2020 , 12:23 PM | #15
In the past as in pre 4.0 when there was a some semblance of progression raiding in the game, you geared by doing progressively harder content with BiS coming as an after reward for completing content. Now, as BiS not only is it nothing much in value but the gear itself and scaling trivialize any of the content checks in the game. The irony of Gods being still an actual Op that is of NiM quality is due to a bug right now. Itís essentially farm for people that can actual play at a NiM level right now, the same farm since 2015 for some. Now whether you enjoy that is up to the person but Swtor is not a progression raiding game anymore. You are already over-geared before setting foot an instance. How can it be challenging if you are already BiS? NiM raids are for the most part glorified HM content. But this process has been ongoing since 4.0, and is in reflection of the raiding population in the game currently. If you are in Swtor for a competitive challenging PvP or PvE you are going to be disappointed. Itís a casual game and best played as one.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
01.27.2020 , 03:29 PM | #16
I would be happy if raids dropped rare crafting mats. I have a lot of alts to gear, and alternate sets of gear for each alt. But raids don't even give good money either.

I run NiM raids and HM Dxun several times throughout the week, yet I never win a set piece or tactical. This is because they never drop, and are never the piece you want. The only good thing you get from raids now are tech fragments, titles, and the occasional mount.
-Beruhl (ง︡'-'︠)ง

8 pugs and a grophet i do what i want can i borrow a stim?
Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
Thanks Rion Starbrah.

Aeneas_Falco's Avatar


Aeneas_Falco
01.31.2020 , 04:15 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Terro_Fett View Post
IMO Bioware could have made the current system work by simply putting ilvl caps on certain content, for example they could have done something roughly like this:

Veteran FPs provide gear up to ilvl 290
Master FPs/SM Ops provide gear up to ilvl 300
Legacy HM Ops provide gear up to 304
Legacy NiM/HM Dxun provide 306

The difference in gear between people who only run FPs or SM Ops and those who do top-tier content would still be small, only 6 ilvls at most, so it would still maintain the promise that everyone can get good gear playing their way. Honestly the difference between 300 and 306 gear is functionally pretty small, but it would at least provide endgame players some level of gear incentive.
The issue with that suggestion however is that currently PVE gear is what is used in PVP. If BiS gear was gated behind NiM Ops it would force people who want to be competitive to join progression raiding teams, or play their preferred mode of gameplay (PVP) at a disadvantage.

That isn't to say that Bioware shouldn't consider locking BiS behind NiM runs, just that if they do it has to be paired with Expertise gear (or some other form of PVP gearing) being reintroduced to the game.

Since Bioware is unlikely to bring back Expertise gear my pick would be to introduce new cosmetic shinies as NiM drops. Unique mounts, titles, flairs, crystals, armor sets ect that can't be obtained elsewhere. Not unlike how Ranked PVP has some new rewards each season.

merovejec's Avatar


merovejec
01.31.2020 , 07:26 AM | #18
The point now are really only the achievements and the drops/titles. Like many here said, once you have done the new ops on SM and HM, 8 and 16 man, with all bonus achievements, there really is no reason to run it anymore. You can run old ops for titles, achievements and mounts, but the special gear has been removed and can be gotten elswhere now.

This was a topic for long and the players, who wanted to get the best gear in the game by playing any content, won this discussion. Bioware made it so that no matter what you do, you will eventually get the best gear. I have to admit that the rate at which we are getting content now is much faster than before, yet it still isnt fast enough when its only about running the content once for the achievements. Hard to say. Fact is that you can get top end game gear just by playing GSF and farming fragments!
Merovejec
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Darkchip's Avatar


Darkchip
01.31.2020 , 05:44 PM | #19
The fact is that with this system no matter how much content they pump out it will never be fast enough to keep people happy doing things, This is one of the reasons why alot of the older MMO players said this gearing system was not only a bad idea but would be disastrous for the game.

People are being done with toons in less then a week getting their BIS sets, mods, tacticals and amplfiers then having nothing new and interesting to do. The older ops will only intertain people for so long before they get bored of them or have nothing to gain from them anymore and then what are they ment to do? Just keep running hammer station for the millionth time?

This gearing system sounds good on paper but is really bad for the longterm health of the game and anyone with half a brain can see that but again greed won out and people that have never even set foot in ops can now get BIS so fast now that it's insane.

With the old system it took time to get things and it could take months to get your BIS, you had not only goals but you had a drive to go and do things now next to no one wants to do anything since again their is no drive to do anything.

HunterJoseph's Avatar


HunterJoseph
01.31.2020 , 09:35 PM | #20
This thread needs way more attention.

I played SWTOR from day 1 up until about 2015 and I ran every op with an amazing raid team up until Shadow of Revan. At that point we just got burned out and everyone quit, then the disaster that was KoTFE and KoTET made me want to stay even further away from this game. So I hear that 6.0 made a lot of changes and here I am checking it all out.

So let me start out with this: I an a consular main. I have 4 sages (dps only cause I suck at healing) and 7 shadows (both tank and dps). this toons are for the specific purpose of having enough alts to run entire groups through full ops to get the gear they needed. It used to be that you could run DF and DP and get a full set of gear for a single toon, so I leveled enough shadows to fill a single tank spot and run people who didn't do prog raids through SM DF DP so that could at least get a set or gear. Ir was rewarding to help other people, and it was fun building comraderie among players.

So I come back in to 6.0... and I thought to myself... how am I going to gear all these shadows... turns out with this new gearing system, I was able to lvl one sage to 75 and get him to 306 in less than a week, send that gear to a shadow once they hit 75, and just have them geared in a day, next day another shadow, and so on. In about two weeks I have 11 toons in full 306 gear, and that includes tank and dps gear for all my shadows, an dI work a full time 40 hour job and only get 2-4 hours in the evenings and maybe 5 on the weekends, so it's not like this is me sitting in front of SWTOR for 16 hours a day grinding out toons and gear.

Now with that said, yes, gearing is super easy now. Was it fun and enjoyable to lvl and gear all those toons so fast? Absolutely not. it was the worst experience I have ever had in this game. It consisted of running more Hammer Station vet mode than I have ever run in my life. I did run an SnV, and I thought perfect, I will get the gear I need... nope... only the last boss dropped gear... I thought it was a bug at first, surely this cannot be right... why would anyone run any op if none of the bosses drop any gear, and the last boss only a chance to drop a gear piece??? So more vet hammer station... to infinity and beyond.

I mean honestly, did the devs really think that the player base would just run every random FP over and over, and not find the easiest quickest path? Do you not understand the player base that much? when you create content that forces the player to platform there way around a planet just to find a +2 endurance datacron that is hidden in some obscure location, do you really think those same players that accept that challenge to do things in odd and obscure ways are not going to do the same thing when it comes to gearing with this ridiculous system?

So yes, I agree with everyone else in this thread. This system is not it. I commend Bioware for trying something different, but this is not it. What I would have liked to have seen and what would have made more sense, is something along lines: Since every playable character had to spend 5 years in cryosleep due to the KoTET storyline, it would have made more sense to use that as more than just the lame story line that it was, but rather have your character actually be effected by that and introduce a whole new system with new skills, new sets, new individual story lines, new things to learn all over again; essentially rebooting the whole game, but that opportunity was missed, and now we have this **** storm to deal with.

Gear sets that are just meh... the old gear sets played into the actual skills and rotations of the class, these gear sets are more like ehhhh, you can use this one, but it's not that great, or you could use this other one but it's also not hat great... really you could use any of them because they are not that class specific... as a balance sage... why would I use force speed in order to buff my force skills??? 50% of my rotation is me standing still... throwing pebbles... telekenetic throw is THE highest damaging ability in the rotation... and you want me to use force speed ... so I can stand still... and get a dps boost from one channel of telekenetic throw??? Seriously... who came up with this crap? You're killing me Smalls!!!!

I get that people complained because they couldn't get the BIS gear from raid because they didn't have a raid group to run with that could get it, or someone in the pug group they joined left cause lockout and they couldn't finish it, or someone needed all of it and won it... well guess what? you actually already fixed that issue. The way gear drops now is nice... everyone has their drops... and only mats are rolled on... perfect... all you had to do was implement that, and bam, gear drops fixed. Now no one else can randomly roll on your gear piece that drops on a boss... and yeah sure, maybe you add in the random aspect too, so every time I run KP I don't get a drop that is just for me, maybe its a random chance, like greater than 50% chance, not a 0.00000001% chance on every boss. You make SM raids drop rate fairly high so pgs and casuals don't feel left out, but its lower lvl gear, BIS, but Tier 1 BIS, HM drops Tier 2 BIS, and NiM Teir 3 BIS, but HM and NiM are usual guaranteed drops, one per boss. If you want the better gear, you got to earn it, that is just how the world works. This participation trophy gearing is not it. it's not fun. it's not rewarding. it's not enjoyable. and it will not bring in more subscribers, do not fool yourselves or your stakeholders.