Hopefully that title got your attention. I don't actually think that operatives need a buff. I'm here to address other problems. Mitigation. I actually believe the damage outputs of all classes are fine. Please read the section called "the problem" first. It will probably inspire you to read this entire post.

 

I've made a few threads here and there about numerical problems in how damage is handled and etc. I'd like to sum them up into one thread and have an intelligent discussion.

 

This is Ganondorf from Anchorhead. I'm working on the formulas for diminishing returns but I find, mathmatically, the problem is with mitigation. The fact being that pretty much all of the large burst abilities are more or less unmitigatable except through static barrier and hard mitigation.

 

Here is the TLDR version:

Shield rating, sheild absorbtion, and defense rating don't actually work...

Internal and Elemental damage completely ignores armor... and these damage types are the largest.

You can't shield critical hits.

PvP gear is covered in useless stats because of these factors.

 

Static barrier is that electric shield sorcs use that can absorb anywhere from 3-9k damage with none of it bleeding through. All sorcs should cast this on everyone friendly near them in pvp, always.

 

Hard mitigation are abilities that offer hard percentages on damage reduction. For example the skill Invincible reduces all incoming damage by 40%. Unstoppable is a perk in the middle tree for juggs, it gives you 20% hard dmg reduction after leaping (and 4 secs of cc immunity).

 

I'm going to organize this thread into three parts. I added a new section called "the problem". If anything read that. The "first part" is the mitigation issue. The "second part" is about how hard mitigation stacks. The third part is a list of glitches and exploits and how to do them. The last part is here solely because they need to be fixed. As of this update I'm adding a fourth section called "how I would fix it". It's about how I would fix the problem, quite self explanatory.

 

THE PROBLEM

 

I'll be quick and dirty here. Armor doesn't protect you from internal or elemental damage, shields and your defense rating only affect weapon damage for the most part. Most classes have a spec that involves using these two damage types. You can't dodge almost every single ability in pvp.

 

Now shields only activate on attacks that qualify. Shields inherently only activate a small percentage of the time and only mitigate a small percentage of the damage. It is possible, with relics and the right armor, to get your shields to 50/50. Which is a 50% chance to occur and they absorb 50% of the damage when they trigger. That's a 25% damage reduction. This is unfeasable but possible.

 

Now, since only weapon damage triggers shields (sniper attacks, unload, basic attacks) shields only be able to activate on roughly 10% of the incomming damage you'll be recieving in pvp. 25% damage reduction is respectable, 2.5% (25/10) is not. Now that 25% is the maximum possible if shields worked the way advertised and that is the stat cap for both those stats, at 50%. You can't even get those stats normally much less sustain them in combat. It requires using a relic. I'd also like to mention using a columi relic increase the operatives dps by 25%+ or any player using crits which fully negates the power of shields even at there best.

 

 

6 minute video of how neither Shield nor Defense affects yellow damage attacks. Only white. Here's the thread I originally posted.

 

With a 40%+ chance to shield and a 22%+ unbuffed chance to defend it's nigh mathematically impossible to have a string of attacks that long without any defense/shield. To put it in perspective, I have a better chance of being struck by lightning WHILE winning the lottery.

 

I had my buddy switch to "white damage" 1/2 way through the video to show that only white damage is being subjected to either Shield or Defense.

 

This all means that shield rating/absorbtion rating and defense rating are useless in pvp. It also means that accuracy is equally useless by relation. These stats are plastered all over pvp gear. This means I'm just as durable in dps gear for my Juggernaut (Vindicator class) as the tank gear (War Leader). I'd also like to mention that the set bonuses for those pieces favors the dps gear for pvp tanking as well.

 

Vindicator

8% health on Guardian Leap (leaping to a friendly target)

10% damage bonus after leaping

 

War Leader

Chokes duration is 1s longer

5% damage bonus when guarding someone (While they're in range)

 

Armor still offers reasonable protection from damage that isn't coming from operatives. Shields still protect you from snipers which deal a lot of weapon damage unless spec'd otherwise. Now that you know this I'd like to mention every class has a spec that largely ignores weapon damage or that can do internal or elemental damage. Those spec's will have the largest dps output.

 

This also means pvp gear is covered in useless stats like accuracy, defense rating, and anything to do with shields.

 

This also means to more than half the classes in the game, and possibly all depending on the spec, juggs are just as squishy as any other class.

 

This also means huttball is designed for whole teams of sorcs because they can all cast static barrier, pull eachother around, and sprint through fire and cc. Literally a whole team of sorcs is the best composition for huttball. I find that thought hilarious and slightly offensive. This also means that a sorc with high willpower and power stats can have a shield (static barrier) that absorbs 9k+ damage. Making sorcs the most consistently durable class in the game.

 

Also guard doesn't work on companions, it only reduces their threat. So yeah. If you can heal your companion or Static Barrier them... why can't I transfer their damage back to me?

 

 

PART 1

 

Even with 50% mitigation through armor, 30/30 for shields, and 30% defence chance... I have 0% chance to mitigate any of the incoming damage except through hard mitigation through abilities like immortal, unstoppable, etc.

 

This means that only a sorcs bubble or there party buff can absorb any of that damage (and a buff from my spec). Regardless I'll at max only be able to mitigate 20% of it. If I manage to have full resolve or Unleash and get my hard mitigation abilities off before I die... I can survive.

 

As a fully geared tank in pvp I have 17,000 health. Yes, the pvp armor doesn't have quite as much endurance on it as pve armor. Quite a bit of health anyways. Envii can, and HAS, de-stealthed on me and punches through maybe 2/3's of my health within the first or second 4s stun used. If I break the first the second one is always at the ready because good players are good. The damage here isn't actually the problem, it's mitigation. If Envii opens with the 4s knockdown then I get a free full resolve bar, even if I cc break it. Some operatives like to open with a 4s stun feel the water, re-stealth, and open with there 4s knockdown which works for the full duration because resolve wasn't full.

 

The knockdown last 4 seconds of you on the ground as well but due to the animation system you can't queue abilities or do anything till you stand up. Standing up takes an additional 1 second as does falling on your ***. All in all it lasts a little under 6 seconds.

 

Even if you use Unleash, the Jugg CC breaker, you still have to stand up. This basically means CC breaking the kd opener is a crapshoot at best as you aren't saving yourself 4 seconds. So oddly using your cc breaker "trinket" on the knockdown is quite inefficient and you might be better off saving it for the inevitable kick to your ******* as you channel ravage.

 

After the initial burst I pop my rakatan medpac, activate my ward, immortal, and occasionally pop my trinkets and more just to survive the damage from one character. There are 7 more possible attackers in huttball and one person just murdered the tank more or less. This is all unavoidable and unmitigatable damage even for what might be the best tank on Anchorhead. I can get by and get out but it requires way too many abilities on large cd's.

 

Now I hate comparing a 1v1 situation but this is a guaranteed screw in a 1v1 situation. One player can easily force a tank spec'd pvp player to pop all of his cd's and consumables just to survive while they pop'd there consumables. The advantage of the opener and the waste of my resources as a tank is inexcusable and silly. Silly I say! Now, please realize here that while I used all my cd's just to survive the operative/nutbasher still has full health and various cd's at the ready. They also still have their rakatan medpac. I have 20% health, no real damage output, and can't escape.

 

In short the consumables are a problem (a small nerf after the mitigation issues are addressed) but if the damage that was hitting people was mitigatable then the numbers would fall in line. I think that's what needs to be addressed along with the scaling ratios of some stats. I do believe there is a problem with everyone wanting to be viable at pvp needing biochem, which you do, but that's another story.

 

 

PART 2

I'm a Juggernaut spec'd into unstoppable. I also have the ability Invincible. Invincible reduces all incomming damage by 40% for 10 seconds and untoppable is a spec that allows for cc immunity and 20% damage reduction after leaping. It appears that, depending on the abilities used, these are applied one after another. In this case Invincible reduces a 10,000 damage ability to a 6,000 damage ability then unstoppable reduces that damage to me taking 4800. Instead of reducing the damage by 6,000 it's reduces by 5,200. It seems like a small difference but it adds up with all the forms of mitigation such as shields and other abilities. Imagine the damage going through several small filters instead of one gigantic one.

 

It compounds with the fact internal and elemental damage ignores armor.

 

PART 3

 

I'll list what I know and I've submitted bug tickets on the insanely broken stuff which I won't post.

 

If you have the ball while on your ledge you will die and the enemy team gets the ball and a kill. This means that the enemy team can camp your spawn and toss the ball to enemy players on the opposing teams ledge... and the ball will kill them and bounce back to your team.

 

This also means bounty hunters can pull the ball carrier up to there ledge as they try to cap to instantly kill the carrier and give your team the ball.

 

The turn in field for huttball is only about a jump distance off the ground. As well, so with any height if you "fly" or get knocked a small distance over the line it won't score.

 

Standing in the ball cradles deprives the enemy team of line of sight on you while you still have it. This means only people in the cradle can shoot you. Any melee class can tab target you, or target you any other way, and melee you as melee only checks if your facing your target and in range.

 

HOW I'D FIX IT

 

Since I know everything about ToR, ever, and have access to a secret combat log and game code I have devised the perfect solution. That was a joke. But I am quite good at what I do and hopefully this sounds reasonable.

 

First, critical hits need to be able to be shielded. I understand you don't want your set-up wasted by mitigatory abilities... but maxing critical chance completely renders shields useless. It's absurd.

 

Operatives need burst. They need those two damage types, internal and elemental, to hit hard as hell. I propose that 40% of armor is returned as defense for internal and elemental. Armor has drastic diminishing returns giving 1/4th less % reduction at 6k than 1k. So understand me when I say this number should be determined by your final armor reduction percentage stat. Mine is at 44%ish I believe. I think 40% of your final armor reduction value should be used as a bonus for internal damage reduction. Only tank specs can achieve numbers like 44% damage reduction from armor which would equate 16% internal and elemental resistance. Reasonable, other classes would fare far worse for not being tanks. The ratio for this internal/elemental resistance should be roughly 40-50% to bring the numbers in line. I think the lower end at 40% is best.

 

Shields should work on everything. Even at an ungodly area of 50/50 it is still only a 25% reduction on incoming damage. A crit trinket increases your damage output far beyond 25% and the adrenals and stims can even double your damage in some cases. Some classes don't realize that shields only reduce incoming damage, not stop it. To get numbers like that too you would have to have almost no strength stat on your gear as well and be using a relic. Believe me it's a fair amount of damage but nothing you can't overcome.

 

Guarding a player, the returned damage should not be mitigated by any stat. This will keep the numbers in line and make it so hitting someone your guarding won't be useless as it will bleed you dry FAST.

 

Defense rating is scary territory. Having a chance to outright "dodge" and take no damage from an ability is hard to factor in. Honestly I'd say allow for your defense rating to be proc'able on all attacks and abilities used that aren't aoe or ground targeted. Have accuracy function as intended as well (functionally reducing their %chance to dodge by every % over 100% you have).

 

This might disturb you. I think it would work to counteract the disadvantage melee is at right now. Out attack and ability rotations are substantially more complicated for no returns as is our situational control. Mostly melee classes have this stat and only ones spec'ing into being tanks will have it reaching high figures. I believe it should cap at 30%. That number should only be achievable to defense rating geared tanks who pop'd a relic and will be lowered by players with enough accuracy.

 

In addition you shouldn't be able to defend/deflect/dodge while stunned. It doesn't make sense to me and it would put more value on cc'ing tanks.

 

All of this should layer and stack as the hard mitigation abilities do. With these changes defense geared players will be incredibly durable. Their surviability will be up by, at max, 50%. They however won't be able to infinitely guard players thanks to the true damage bleed from their guard. A player with full tank gear and spec will have a hard time reaching 75k damage in a warzone but they will run around providing cc, taunts, and guards or priority targets now. With these changes characters designed to hit hard will still hit hard, tanks will be able to take damage besides their hard dmg reduction, and aoe and utility players will still have their full viability.

 

If you read deeply you'd realize those figures are only possible when gearing purely into one stat and popping a relic, adrenal, and stim. You can't have them all at once.

 

The average stats at full pvp tank gear without focusing on one stat would be:

 

44% armor

25% dodge rate

30/30 shields

 

and complete crap damage and having trouble getting 75k damage.

 

Those max numbers are only achievable with relics and biochem. Just like the infamous 10k damage crit.

 

In addition there should be no shields that completely absorb damage like the sorcs have. I propose a 20% bleed through for damage being mitigated by that shield.

 

There is no way to balance huttball as it is. Even with the bugs below sorcs have a bag of tricks to bypass the entirety of the game. Being able to pull an ally to you and sprint through fire and while sprinting be immune to cc makes it so three sorcs can basically bypass all of the traps and elevation issues. I'm sure many strategies using multiple sorcs come to mind. EAch has that 5-9k damage buff Static shield as well. With three you can actually make an ability chain from the ball cradle to the endzone that's almost impossible to stop unless you manage to cc both sorcs that aren't the ball carrier and stay on them while they get to the two proper pull locations to launch their ally into the end zone.

 

Note that hutball is unsaveable because of it's pure focus on utility and movement abilities. Those without them or the ones that are needed simply aren't contributing to the metagame, speed cap'ing.

 

Voidstar will have problems with these changes. If lucky when I die I might be able to catch an open gate and run back to the door. They won't be able to kill me fast enough to arm the bomb. WE CAN FIX THIS HERP DERP?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

This one actually gets me angry for once. The Warzones need a respawn timer. For example there is a respawn window every 30 seconds. For example... when you die you wait 20 seconds to respawn.

 

Why is this good?:

1. No dice rolls on how fast you get back in or the enemy does.

2. DPS classes rewarded on these objective pvp gametypes because they actually keep players away so you can do objectives.

3. It allows for tanks to die and be gone for awhile before they show up again to roll out backhands and /dance emotes during fights.

 

Some warzones will need gated respawn windows for their design. This is where every 30 seconds there is a respawn window and if you die one second before it you respawn instantly. If you die right after the window you wait the full period. This allows you to spawn in groups and coordinate. Basically the warzones got it backwards. Huttball and voidstar need timers where alderaan needs gate system.

 

You can't remove utility from characters at this point. You CAN'T remove abilities now that classes should never have had, but you can tweak them. I can't begin to describe how, but perhaps making tanks viable is the first step.

 

The power stat needs diminishing returns. Incredibly small ones but some.

 

Oddly, in pve these stats work differently. A lot of enemies do weapon damage if not most and you only see internal and elemental from bosses and special encounters. So the tanking gear works in pve. But on hm some of the bosses that do internal damage would just as easily kill you as a naked sorc.

 

A lot doesn't feel right. As a jugg or marauder to do my job I need both bottom bars and the left and right bars a long with every usable key on my keyboard bound along with my Razer naga's 17 primary buttons. Whereas some classes routinely only use a single bar and at the most the bottom two. The returns are a bit off there being that the class is harder to play and gives less... so it's actually entropic.

 

CLOSING

 

Thanks for reading. I intend to update this once I finish running numbers with my guild and friends. Also thanks to Envii on Anchorhead for being my greatest opposition in pvp, your the Link to my Ganondorf. <3

 

I'd like intelligent discourse on these topics and if possible a reasonable response from Bioware on their opinions and intended course of action. I love this game and Star Wars but there are glaring problems with the figures here that need to be addressed.

 

Some of you may have fought tanks that were already incredibly durable. This is because they had their hard mitigation class abilities on 3 minute respawn timers up and used them. Or they used one of the other hard mitigation abilities to lower incoming damage.

 

I'd also like to bring a bunch of bugs for the Juggernaut to attention. First off if you're using the tanking armor to get the additional 1s channel on your force choke and have the talent to make force choke not require a channel... you have to be stationary to cast force choke even with the talent. And it also appears if you move after casting it will still only tick for 3.

 

The talent "crash" is actually a detriment. Since leaping will result in a half filled resolve bar with crash you will only be able to use one of your cc moves before they get full resolve. Additionally, leaping is an interrupt and roots. Also the second you activate leap the global cooldown begins and the 2s stun begins... which means you get nothing out of it.

 

Smash always hits the locations you were standing when you pressed the button, not where you are after the animation. It also has a second and a half delay making it all but impossible to hit a moving target.

 

Also numerous bugs with the animation system sometimes make retaliation uncast-able.

 

I'm sure the other tanks have problems with their talents as well but as it stands things like these make an already worthless tanking tree a steaming dump.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Avison

yeah gave up trying to tank stuff in pvp.. everything bar the basic free attack cannot be dodged/shielded it seems.

 

so defensive stats are useless in pvp basically (defence / shielding /absorb) - thats why CC and high damage classes are so rampant and appear OP. it also begs the question why they bothered putting these stats on any of the pvp gear? when 90% of the incomming damage bypasses any effect they contribute towards.

 

Its actually all my fault.. as this is the first time in 10 years of mmo gaming that i decided to actually play a tank class.. and its the only game that the tanks cant tank in pvp due to largely non existant mitigation.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Sandzibar

On these forums, I find there's a very fine line between an immortal ball runner and uncontrollable burst dps.

 

I agree that there are a lot of ways to bypass mitigation. Some classes have more than others. That may be an issue. Every class has something, however, which I think is needed as a dps. Speaking from personal experience, since more than half of my damage is mitigated by armor with no significant penetration, including my hardest hitting ability, I definately do much less burst than on say...a sage.

 

I think the main problem is with how useless the defense skill is against a large amount of abilities. Force/tech attacks ignore it completely or the resistance that is a part of it isn't scaling/functioning correctly, making the only tank stats worth anything for the purposes of mitigation shield based(chance and absorb). That said, stacking these two goes a long way towards destroying damage when the shield proc, given absorb's scaling and the fact that it's percentage reduction of damage instead of a set amount, scaling it with harder hitting abilities as well. I play with tanks that do this(and sometimes against them, curse you huttball!) and it makes them very very strong, especially due to the fact that they already get bonuses to shields and absorb in their talent trees and abilities.

 

I think it mostly boils down to how weak defense is as a stat against a very large amount of abilities in this game. If there were more melee/ranged attacks and less force/tech ones, it would feel more valuable. There's a compound issue where you can't dodge or parry or delflect or anything while stunned, which I think is fine, but also detracts from the value of defense, especially given the plethora of stuns in this game.

 

But again, there's a fine line between unkillable ball runners and useless tanks. When I know more about tanking I'll be able to make a more educated assessment of where I think that line is. As is I'm strictly dps, and am going to be biased on that side until i know more about the other.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Lina_Inverse

You more or less hit the nail on the head. Shield rating and absorption are the only worthwhile tanking stats whatsoever. Armor is useless and defense is useless.

 

Basically you want mitigation that's not situational and you only have two ways to do it. Abilities on huge cooldowns and your shields.

 

It's absurd.

You more or less hit the nail on the head. Shield rating and absorption are the only worthwhile tanking stats whatsoever. Armor is useless and defense is useless.

 

Basically you want mitigation that's not situational and you only have two ways to do it. Abilities on huge cooldowns and your shields.

 

It's absurd.

 

No. Shields are useless. Armor is a bit better. You're backwards.

 

Currently shields do not do anything to mitigate Kinetic, Elemental, Internal, or Energy damage. This is any ability that has a tooltip indicating one of these kinds of damage.

 

Any ability listed as such bypasses shields entirely. The only thing shields do help against is anything listed as "Weapon damage."

 

I have tested thoroughly with an Operative friend. His only attacks which my shield works against are Carbine Burst, Overload Shot, and his basic no energy cost rifle shots.

 

Everything else, all of the nasty "melee" attacks that melt tanks so fast, are entirely unmitigated by shields as they are classified as Kinetic Damage.

 

The only BH attacks mitigated by shields are Rapid Shots, Unload, and Rail Shot (and their mirrors).

 

Sorcs entirely bypass shielding.

 

The only thing which is reliably affected by shielding is Saber attacks from Assassins, Juggernauts, and Marauders and the Sniper class attacks. These classes have a lot more reliance on Weapon Damage based skills and are the only classes significantly affected by shielding in PvP. Everyone else has practically a free pass around your mitigation.

 

This. Is. Asinine.

 

It seems like Defense only works on Weapon Damage based attacks as well. I know my Rail Shot can be dodged (Ranged Weapon Damage attack) but I can't remember the last time someone avoided a Rocket Punch (Melee Kinetic Damage) or Flame Burst (Ranged Elemental Damage).

 

Edit: Like triple editing here making sure I've got everything straight. I keep referencing abilities on different characters, etc.

Edited January 10, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

No. Shields are useless. Armor is a bit better. You're backwards.

 

Currently shields do not do anything to mitigate Kinetic, Elemental, Internal, or Energy damage. This is any ability that has a tooltip indicating one of these kinds of damage.

 

Any ability listed as such bypasses shields entirely. The only thing shields do help against is anything listed as "Weapon damage."

 

I have tested thoroughly with an Operative friend. His only attacks which my shield works against are Carbine Burst, Overload Shot, and his basic no energy cost rifle shots.

 

Everything else, all of the nasty "melee" attacks that melt tanks so fast, are entirely unmitigated by shields as they are classified as Kinetic Damage.

 

The only BH attacks mitigated by shields are Rapid Shots, Unload, and Rail Shot (and their mirrors).

 

Sorcs entirely bypass shielding.

 

The only thing which is reliably affected by shielding is Saber attacks from Assassins, Juggernauts, and Marauders and the Sniper class attacks. These classes have a lot more reliance on Weapon Damage based skills and are the only classes significantly affected by shielding in PvP. Everyone else has practically a free pass around your mitigation.

 

This. Is. Asinine.

 

It seems like Defense only works on Weapon Damage based attacks as well. I know my Rail Shot can be dodged (Ranged Weapon Damage attack) but I can't remember the last time someone avoided a Rocket Punch (Melee Kinetic Damage) or Flame Burst (Ranged Elemental Damage).

 

Edit: Like triple editing here making sure I've got everything straight. I keep referencing abilities on different characters, etc.

 

Armor is kind of a given, but you can't really stack it because it's a set value on gear. You have it or you don't. It still doesn't mitigate internal, elemental, or mental damage, but at least gets energy and kinetic, which most attacks function as (melee attacks are all energy or kinetic, dots are typically internal or elemental, though some are kinetic, and ranged attacks are typically energy, though some are internal or elemental.) There are far fewer abilities, even on sorcs, that are not energy or kinetic than those that are.

 

Why shield chance is better than armor for the purpose of mitigation is that there are no abilties that allow you to bypass shield mitigation. There are several that allow armor penetration, some more reliably than others.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Lina_Inverse

Why shield chance is better than armor for the purpose of mitigation is that there are no abilties that allow you to bypass shield mitigation. There are several that allow armor penetration, some more reliably than others.

 

I'm going to be nice, just this once, but I don't like repeating myself. Failures of reading comprehension from this point forward will not be taken lightly.

 

Shields do not work as advertised. The only abilities which shields work on are those listed as "Weapon Damage" in the ability tooltip.

 

Shiv, Rocket Punch, Lacerate, Back Stab, and Hidden Strike are all abilities which look like they should be mitigated by shielding but they do not, they are classified as "Kinetic Damage" and therefore bypass shields entirely in the current game. Operatives and Bounty Hunters therefore only have three abilities, each, which are affected at all by shields.

 

Any tooltip which lists its ability as doing "Elemental Damage," "Internal Damage," "Kinetic Damage," or "Energy Damage" bypasses your shielding entirely.

 

This means that the only classes significantly affected by shielding is Snipers and Saber Weilders. Everything else in this game gets by your shielding without batting an eyelash.

 

This is of course unfair for both sides. Saber Weilders and Snipers deal with significantly more damage mitigation than anyone else, and Tanks aren't getting nearly as much bang for their shielding buck (Powertech tanks especially since the whole damn tree revolves around shielding, something which less than half of their opponents do a significant amount of attacks towards).

 

There may be "no abilities which grant the ability to bypass shields," but my point is that there doesn't have to be since so few of the attacks can be shielded in the first place.

 

Don't believe me? Spend an hour of your own time to test it. Like I did when I didn't believe the person who told me.

Edited January 10, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

I'm going to be nice, just this once, but I don't like repeating myself. Failures of reading comprehension from this point forward will not be taken lightly.

 

Shields do not work as advertised. The only abilities which shields work on are those listed as "Weapon Damage" in the ability tooltip.

 

Shiv, Rocket Punch, Lacerate, Back Stab, and Hidden Strike are all abilities which look like they should be mitigated by shielding but they do not, they are classified as "Kinetic Damage" and therefore bypass shields entirely in the current game. Operatives and Bounty Hunters therefore only have three abilities, each, which are affected at all by shields.

 

Any tooltip which lists its ability as doing "Elemental Damage," "Internal Damage," "Kinetic Damage," or "Energy Damage" bypasses your shielding entirely.

 

This means that the only classes significantly affected by shielding is Snipers and Saber Weilders. Everything else in this game gets by your shielding without batting an eyelash.

 

This is of course unfair for both sides. Saber Weilders and Snipers deal with significantly more damage mitigation than anyone else, and Tanks aren't getting nearly as much bang for their shielding buck (Powertech tanks especially since the whole damn tree revolves around shielding, something which less than half of their opponents do a significant amount of attacks towards).

 

There may be "no abilities which grant the ability to bypass shields," but my point is that there doesn't have to be since so few of the attacks can be shielded in the first place.

 

Don't believe me? Spend an hour of your own time to test it. Like I did when I didn't believe the person who told me.

 

Assassin and shadow tanks rely heavily on shield/absorb as well.

Assassin and shadow tanks rely heavily on shield/absorb as well.

 

They're hit pretty hard too, but they don't rely on shielding to reach their full effectiveness (Managing Heat, resetting cooldowns, etc).

Meh i agree with the OP. My main is a SI Sorc and while i love my main its just not that viable in PVP ATM. the Smuggler classes always 2 shoot me. i get knocked down and i never get up. its very disapointing but i just dont have fun PVPing with that toon ATM. I have re-rolled a BH and will mess with that class for a bit.

 

I dont like classes getting nerfed however, it messes with PVE but being 2 shot every time with champ gear on /sigh.

Edited January 10, 2012 by DarthSabreth

I had a feeling something wasnt right when my light armor character and my vanguard appear to take about the same damage averages in PvP. I knew something wasnt right..

 

A week ago i read a comment in the vanguard forum. Just a passing comment made by a player in a thread that wasnt even on this subject. The other player made a remark about how funny it was going to be when people found out how worthless the tanking stats would be in a PvP environment.

 

Bullheaded, as normal, i rolled my eyes and stuck to my character. Now, after a few hundred matches, i can safely say **** SOMETHING **** isnt right with my tank in pvp. I never shield ANYTHING. My mitigation feels as if im playing a light armored character. I get *chewed* apart with more or less mediocre damage. Come on, please admit it. Okay, once in a while, we will get a decent crit for 2-4k.... ooo aaahhh. Please.

 

Its absolutely pathetic i wasted this much time gearing towards defense and learning the guard/taunt features on a class that is more or less a walking punching bag when there isnt a healbot on me.

 

 

If my excitement over this game continues to plummet the same as the last 4-6 days, i can safely say i wont even be here in a month. Absolutely without a doubt. I have never made one "op nerf" thread. Hell, this is my first damn post *ever* and im already extremely irritated with many issues and out right non functionality of worded "fake" mechanics that dont even work AT ALL.

I made this statement to my guild. There is no reason at all to have defensive stats in pvp, armor mitigates a little and that is all. So basically as a tank class all you bring to the table is 2 minute cool down to live longer, and crap damage. You are better off in all situations just stacking damage, which is not fun for people that would like to be a tank. Operatives can take down a tank easier then a they can take down a dps consular due to bubble alone.

I guess that's why even with 42% chance/absorb I've been taking the same damage from everything since I can remember unless I use my cooldown shield?.

 

 

 

 

damn...

Edited January 10, 2012 by peanutabc

This thread should be the nail for operatives , scoundrels and all those hypocrites who claim they fine.

 

Furthemore i just unistall the game cause both my commando and guardian felt usless to pvp but i thought when i gear it might get better , although the latest videos should provide a clue for the opposite.

 

Since beta melee dps classes felt ridiculous op in end game but almost everyone was claiming expertise and end game amrors will fix that

 

But the maths wasnt there.

 

for instance as a sorc with max expertise in theory it hsould miltigate only 15% damage more.

 

When your getting 3 shotted , youll be 3 shotted with 15% miltigation as well thus changing nothing.

 

Also like op said heavy armor and shields are useless , there so much armor ignoring abilities its not fun.

 

Tanks are gimp , healers are worthless , this game is all about dps , its no more in depth than lol - dota terms of gameplay at the end .

Edited January 10, 2012 by ursusarctus

Armor still helps. The flat damage reduction from things like Ion Cylinder still help. I do notice a survivability difference when I am running tank "stance" vs a dps "stance" in PvP.

 

It isn't offering nearly as much as advertised and it isn't doing nearly enough to make the lack of damage completely worthwhile. Currently the best reason (perhaps only real reason) to be using a tanking "stance" is to use Guard.

The fact that this isnt a major issue, this thread isnt 10+ pages long, discovered long ago and fixed before release... worries me a lot.

 

I think after all the research and patience in class selection i chose wrong. I realize i can just reroll something that isnt built around mechanics that do not even come into effect in 100% of PvP play.... how is this even possible?

 

If PvP gear even has stats for defense, absorption, shielding etc etc and those stats only matter for a handful of skills in the game...? Am i understanding the OP correctly??

 

In other words, playing a tank is just a character with a lot of health points only slightly tougher than anyone else with a severe problem in the damage department? And the trade off is we can "guard you"? So we can just die even faster unless we have a healer following us 100% of the time? (thanks to worthless defense stats that do not work, at all, ever, with 90% of skills in the game)

 

DOES ANYONE ELSE NOT FIND THIS A HUGE PROBLEM??

Edited January 10, 2012 by Nikodeamas

Defense / Shields / Absorbition are worthless at the moment. Stack dps even if you are tank.

 

YES IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

I just noticed this too. I've seen tanks on my server with 19k-21k HP. Meh. Edited January 12, 2012 by Paralassa
bad quote

this topic fails so hard that I can't even begin to describe the ways and the magnitude of its failure

I just noticed this too. I've seen tanks on my server with 19k-21k HP. Meh.

 

 

It still isnt the point of the post. Why harp on something so worthless and ignore the main point hes making?

this topic fails so hard that I can't even begin to describe the ways and the magnitude of its failure

 

 

-Equip a full set of defensive gear and run a match.

 

-Equip a full set of offensive gear and run a match.

 

-I surely hope you are already the designated tanking spec for whatever your class requires.

 

Dont act like its hard to get 2 feasible sets together. The 40+ sets will work. Go run a few games and even open your character sheet and actually mouse over and *read* what each statistic is supposed to do. Examine your stats with the different sets on, notice the great difference in damage/defense that different sets can provide?

 

Now go pvp and notice hardly any difference in between the two, while the whole time guarding primary friendlies as you are designed to do as a PvP tank in this game. If these stats are worthless (as the OP suggests) we have a major problem.

 

I can say from personal experience the difference in defense or TTL (time to live when focused) as is examined in many, many other games by defensive geared (main tanks) to be quite worthless regardless of the set im wearing.

 

Sure its fun if you have a pocket healer. Your damage still sucks terribly, but at least you can take a beating.... right? Nobody sucks with a pocket healer is my point. And lastly, if those stats are completely worthless, how do i stack up against you when you're equipped with stats and gear that are 100% beneficial to your character in a PvP environment, but not to mine?

Edited January 10, 2012 by Nikodeamas

This is informative, scary, yet informative.

This is informative, scary, yet informative.

 

 

 

I strongly agree.

 

I feel that this issue (or this thread) wont get the attention it deserves because people will TLDR the whole OP.

 

How to find different words so everyone is on the same page and make it much, much, much shorter....

 

 

 

hmm....

 

 

 

 

You are a full DPS focused and geared character brimming with awesomeness and bad arsery ready to lay the beat down. Your gear your spec everything, you are ready to put out maximum dps as fast or sustained as possible and just own everything in your path!!

 

An operative sneaks up and kills you literally in 3-5 GCDs.

 

 

You are a full defensive based character. Every last statistic, mod, upgrade everything your spec every talent point everything is maxed to make you as defensive and tough as possible so you can use your "guarding" skill (...it is the whole point, after all) and absorb damage for other focused targets in pvp. Your damage sucks ballz, sure, but you are *the* meat shield.

 

An operative sneaks up and kills you literally in 3-5 GCDs.

 

 

 

 

Do you see a problem now? Anyone? Nobody....? *crickets*...

 

 

 

 

edit; please dont take that as a nerf cry on scoundrel/op... it isnt. Poor analogy maybe, but it isnt.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Nikodeamas

No, the operative problem will continue to get the attention because, lets be honest here, it's the more prevalent issue and really does need to be addressed first.

 

I found it surprising that so many attacks just skip the shield. I also have a huge problem with dev's handing out armor pen like candy. Armor is part of that classes/specs defense mechanism and removing that through build talents is bad precedent for the game.

bump, this thread is pretty eye opening as a darkness sin

 

This needs to be a 21+ page thread and have serious developer attention if true (verifying these claims on my own after the maintenance). Potential massive oversight.