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The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
01.20.2019 , 03:57 PM | #121
I have nothing against Charles Boyd as a person, I think he seems like a good guy with humour and an interesting personality, the cosplaying isn't exactly my thing but there is no doubt that his stuff is well made. That said, I think it's sad that he was promoted to become the main writer for SWTOR and much of the dislike for SWTOR I think is due to his poor writing of the expansion content.

SWTOR is a story-driven MMO, sure there are other forms of content for PvP:ers and PvE:ers but at it's core, the thing that SWTOR does better than other games is storytelling, the original class stories is still, so many years after launch, the best content in the game. However, while some stories are better and far more popular than others (Agent, Warrior and Inquisitor) there are stories that are far less popular among the player base, Trooper being the least popular storyline of them all.

Guess who wrote the least popular class story in swtor? Charles Boyd, and he was promoted to lead writer. Of course it's impossible to know if any of the other writers, or anyone else with the capabilities would do a better job, but a lot of the negative comments about the recent expansion story (which Charles wrote) echo a lot of the feedback people give for why the Trooper storyline is their least favourite. The weird interactions with key contacts, low-quality character building, colourless plot and strange turns of events are all characteristics of the Trooper storyline as well as KOFTE/KOTET.

With the story being such a big focal point of SWTOR and one of the key factors for players deciding what MMO to play, I would hope that future storyline gains a huge upgrade in terms of quality.

Bloodworthy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd - The Red Eclipse - Darth Malgus

Suzsi's Avatar


Suzsi
01.21.2019 , 01:52 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Burana View Post
Avoid spoilers if you didn't play these storylines. Either the story doesn't make any sense, or it is not finished, and we are yet to find out who the traitor really was (Valkorion lives and was behind it?).

I played through the stories again, starting from Iokath, this is what happened.

Spoiler
Spoiler

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
01.21.2019 , 10:52 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
SWTOR is a story-driven MMO, sure there are other forms of content for PvP:ers and PvE:ers but at it's core, the thing that SWTOR does better than other games is storytelling, the original class stories is still, so many years after launch, the best content in the game.
The original class stories are certainly the best part of the game. That being said, I disagree that SWTOR does storytelling better than other games. We have to consider its genre; the game is an MMORPG. An MMORPG should not rely on conventional methods for storytelling, in my opinion. Although SWTOR kind of started this trend and it seems to have caught on within the industry, as many other MMOs choose to include a personal single player-esque storyline. Guild Wars 2 had one, as did The Elder Scrolls Online. Even World of Warcraft is giving way more weight to the individual person's actions through questing. In the Burning Crusade, Khadgar wouldn't even talk with you -- he'd send a magical servant to do it for him but in modern WoW he treats you as an equal. You are one of the main guys! And in WoW's case, it really doesn't work. It's tiresome to be called "hero" all the damned time, especially in WoW since you have no agency within the story. Maybe you do not want your undead warlock to be treated as the hero and saviour of the world. Doesn't really fit the fantasy, does it? Guild Wars 2 has the same problem with their necromancers.

The benefit of a single player campaign in an MMORPG is that it can attract players who are otherwise not interested in the genre to give it a try. SWTOR had perhaps an obligation to this as KOTOR 3 was in such big demand, and for SWTOR it works fairly well. When I first levelled to 50 I not only experienced the Agent's storyline, but also the Bounty Hunter's as I levelled alongside a friend and we'd participate in one another's stories, so even if the content is largely shaped for single player, there is a multiplayer aspect to it as well. Except for in KOTFE/KOTET, but I digress.

However! Storytelling for an MMORPG requires A LOT more focus on the actual world! In this sense, the narrative of the original World of Warcraft wins by a landslide compared to original SWTOR. While the quests were not at all as interesting as the ones in SWTOR, the world was much more colourful and living. Each race had a faction that owned a certain zone, and all the dungeons could be found in the world. The different enemy types of these dungeons would be the chunk of the content found in those areas of the world. Crafting reagants would be located in areas that made sense, such as earthroot being found on hills, grave moss around graveyards and in caverns you'd find more ore nodes. The flora and fauna isn't really planet specific in SWTOR, it's level specific, which makes sense from a gameplay perspective but not a narrative perspective. When you reached end game of SWTOR and your story was done, you were faced with emptiness. The end game content was largely tied to Ilum and the fleet.

Sarova's Avatar


Sarova
01.21.2019 , 12:08 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by tahol View Post
I didn't make much noise about Traitor-arc when we were getting it, despite being a major Theron Shan-fan. But boy do I hate that storyline now. It doesn't matter if you let Theron live, he is as good as dead anyway. But we knew that would happen, so I just try to roll with the punches.

What irks me most in the Traitor- arc is that it is total, absolute nonsense. There are plotholes so big they form a black hole. Theron is written to be a total idiot. No, everyone in that story arc acts like a total idiot. I can't stand story depending on people being idiots. I had to stop watching Iron Fist because of that: Everyone was an idiot. Same thing here, and Theron gets the shortest stick.

This man who is shagging with my character finds out someone is listening everyone on the base. He can't tell about this to my character, because they are listened. DON'T THEY HAVE PEN AND PAPER IN STAR WARS? Not only that Theron Shan is unable to write or take my character for a walk outside of the base, later we suddenly find out that Lana and Theron had developed a secret code at Rishi (sic!), and Theron leaves a message for Lana using it on an abandoned listening post (sic!). So now we learn that Theron could've left a message about someone listening them or whatever. So which is it? He didn't have means to tell anyone or he did? Jesus stuff like that drives me crazy.

Now Theron has an implant so I suppose they had hacked in his implant too. First, he has control of it and I'm sure he can turn it off (don't know if it is mentioned in Annihilation). And still: PEN AND PAPER. His implant has a camera that can be turned off, that much I know for sure from Annihilation, so seeing something through it is not an excuse. He can shut it down. For sweet baby Jesus, take my character outside of the base and write with a stick into sand if paper and pen doesn't exist. I can't get past this. I'm not normally a nitpicker when it comes to stories, it spoils the fun out of them but this one really gets me.

So, the whole "Theron can't tell your character what he is doing and why" is the root of all the frustration for me. It is the basis of the story, and so the whole story is nonsense. It is nonsense he couldn't tell. He could have. No one can make me believe anything else.

And on top of that I lost my favorite character. Because of a worst story in the whole history of SWTOR. I'm not happy I tell you. They had to make Theron killable because that was what the peanut gallery wanted. He will never be relevant again. He had 30 seconds in 5.10 in a half-assed cutscene, and unfortunately I'm afraid that was the last we will see of him. My character might be married to him, but he might be a widow just as well. Some marriage that was. Of course they promised Theron won't disappear, but Bioware has a short memory. When they have to deal with limited resources, everything not absolutely necessary will be cut out. He will go the same way as Koth did.

I take major issues with this and I'm angry about it. Theron deserved better than to be turned into a moron and then allowed to be killed.

I left out the normal "everyone just knows everything"-plothole. I just don't have stamina to go there. I guess they are fortune tellers or something. Maybe see things from tarot-cards.
This is the best going-into-one about that whole traitor arc in this thread.
Theron does have a history of making catastrophic decisions (Ziost - in which he managed to get most of his his elite team of force users killed by the Emperor) but did he learn nothing from that experience? Are we to believe (as the writers seem to want us to) that love turned him stupid? The story idea and writing were clearly rushed leading to bad results, one of which is that Theron has become dead to all but we are stuck with Lana who is a proven idiot on many occasions. As for the twits from our past who ended up being used as fuel for Zildrog, W.T.F? This reeked of no imagination. Finally, who was the hooded betrayer? I don't believe for one minute it was either Vinn Atrius or Theron.

They seem to have overlooked the possibility that if you sided with Scorpio, I'm pretty sure she'd be more than happy to rustle up a few new Gemini free eternal ships or a Gravestone mark II for you, and even if you didn't side with Scorpio you have Oggurobb, Yuun, Tora and countless other superbrains in your alliance who would be able to create something pretty near to the Gravestone. The Alliance Empress/Emperor/Commander would therefore have her/himself a flagship & a fleet, so Zildrog destroying everything is irrelevant & the entire traitor arc was pointless.
Fix Vector's Romance Eyes
6.0: more ♥ Quinn ♥ Aric ♥ Theron ♥ Doc ♥ Koth please
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Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
01.21.2019 , 12:21 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Sarova View Post
They seem to have overlooked the possibility that if you sided with Scorpio, I'm pretty sure she'd be more than happy to rustle up a few new Gemini free eternal ships or a Gravestone mark II for you, and even if you didn't side with Scorpio you have Oggurobb, Yuun, Tora and countless other superbrains in your alliance who would be able to create something pretty near to the Gravestone. The Alliance Empress/Emperor/Commander would therefore have her/himself a flagship & a fleet, so Zildrog destroying everything is irrelevant & the entire traitor arc was pointless.
Especially considering Iokath technically still belongs to the Alliance.
And we technically still have the ships that came with the people of the Alliance who may decide to stay on Odessen no matter which side you chose.

We could even have a flagship that looks cool, seriously i always found the Gravestone quite hideous.

Paulsutherland's Avatar


Paulsutherland
01.21.2019 , 01:44 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
Especially considering Iokath technically still belongs to the Alliance.
And we technically still have the ships that came with the people of the Alliance who may decide to stay on Odessen no matter which side you chose.

We could even have a flagship that looks cool, seriously i always found the Gravestone quite hideous.
We must rebuild the fleet!

We'll also need a army ... at the cost of wiping out the Rakata, I know someone who can literally create us a new army.

krakadyla's Avatar


krakadyla
01.21.2019 , 02:22 PM | #127
Oh we are finally moved to the Spoilers, aren't we. I was curious why we were allowed to spoil the fertilizer out of it in gen forum...oh who am I kidding, of course I were not, what with the latest article on Community News saying "05.31.2017 See what's next for SWTOR with Producer Keith Kanneg!". Anyway, hi mods! How's vacation?

robwettengel's Avatar


robwettengel
01.21.2019 , 11:10 PM | #128
When I first played through Umbarra--it was like being hit by a ton of bricks. When Crisis on Umbarra initially dropped, my boyfriend had broken-up with me six months prior (also my first romantic relationship), so I was emotionally frazzled. Then idiot spy boyfriend betrays my Nox, who spared Jedi just because Theron asked nicely. My mind raced for explanations for this sudden twist. Some of you have already mentioned some of the thoughts to explain Theron's actions: hacked implants, conditioning via drugs or the Force, they had Satele (I also thought that Satele may have joined the Order and brought him in). I had been hoping that Aygo was the traitor and was looking forward to having Admiral Rankin replace him. I have never liked Bothans.

I have a bit of personal head-canon that Theron is introduced to the Imperial PCs long before we first encounter him via an initial audio transmission on Manaan. During the Black Talon flashpoint, we first encounter his mom, and given the nature of the Republic operation we were seeking to foil, the SIS was obviously heavily involved in the defection of the unnamed General. It is only natural to logically assume that Theron would have been with Satele as SIS liaison for this op. When we were chatting with Satele, Spyboy was likely observing.

I largely agree with the problems a number of you have pointed out in the story arc, specifically with Copero. The motivations of Valss and Zenta. Did Theron manage to work some romantic mojo on only Valss or on both of them? Valss words during the fight with him stuck me indicative of a strong attachment to Theron. Not knowing anything about Valss' vision makes his motivations for helping Theron--and his true agenda--a mystery to us. There were also many other options--as several of you have mentioned--for Theron to have told us (and perhaps Lana) about his plans and concerns about shadowy conspiracies.

However, I think Theron's personality precluded him from taking any of these sensible steps. Theron has deep-seeded mommy and daddy issues--and the daddy issues are unable to be resolved. We have to remember that Theron has been through Hell. Siding with the Empire means he helps you kill his own father--an act that would weigh heavily on his psyche even without all his double-agent scheming. Theron has been alone for so long that he doesn't know how to depend upon other people--and let them in fully and trust them implicitly.

On the issue of LI's and cut-scene time: Theron is my favorite LI, and I have played all the classes m&f to sample all of them. I find Theron to be the most appealing, with Torian in second- and Telos in third-place and all the other's in last. Lana might have bumped Talos, but I find her look in Forged Alliances and SoR to be too doll-like and her look post-Ziost to be too hard. Voice acting of all four is fine, but Theron's psychological hang-ups are too tantalizing for me not to be attracted to. Making sure that we are all properly catered to regarding LI cut-scene time is a daunting challenge for BioWare. First, there is a percentage of users still waiting to be reunited with their Lis as not all of the vanilla romanceable comps have returned. Second, financial resources, studio time and other production considerations are not infinite. Hopefully, now that Anthem is nearly finished and out the gate, TOR can get access to additional resources. This could permit more companions to return. I also want to suggest to those of you still waiting for your LI reunion: roll a new toon and keep him or her out with you all the time. This will increase the aggregate time that that particular companion is being used. This is likely a metric that BW uses to aid with deciding on companion returns.

Sonicphoto's Avatar


Sonicphoto
01.22.2019 , 03:38 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
I really don't know.

Maybe he feared the Order had a backup plan, maybe GEM-16 got the location as well and staying with the Order was his best chance for us to be able to catch up and stop them, but it's pretty unclear at this point.
Or maybe he wanted the fleet destroyed while saving the Commander, so that he'd be able to fly away with his lover

It's actually pretty frustrating at this point that all that is so open to interpretation and personnal guess, including Valss
Actually yes I think Gemini must have gotten the map coordinates from Theronís implants right away, so I donít think he would have been able to do anything else about it. Why do I say this? Because Scorpio in Kotfe transmitted to Theron coordinates and information through his implants. We see this in the chapter we take on The gemini on the ship, she blocks off theron, senya and lana, and Scorpio transmits new coordinates for him to take, through his implants.

So its possible Gemini might not be looking at him directly, just tracking from the point of view of his implants. So when he puts the tracker on the ship, he doesnít change his gaze, so gemini couldnt see from that point of view of his eyes/implant, that he was placing that transmission.