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What historical person would have made a glorious Jedi? Which a glorious Sith?


Ystig

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Taking in a canon like Star Wars, it's impossible not to make analogies to our own world. From a genre standpoint, it's mythology and it's fantasy in the broadest possible scope. It echoes themes from history and the human experience.

 

From within that history and human experience, then, which people do you look to as reflecting the principles and the political forces which define conflict in the Star Wars universe? Who is our own history's greatest Jedi? Who our greatest Sith?

 

Obviously, my sig gives an indication of one individual who I think to reflect a profoundly Sith outlook.

 

It's appealing and trivial to point to a virtuous historical political, philosophic or spiritual figure as reflecting the light side, and a despicable figure in one of these categories as reflecting the dark. But I tend to think there's more to the Empire and the Republic, more to the Light Side and Dark, than merely being Bad or Good.

 

So who are earth's greatest Sith, and who its greatest Jedi?

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A very interesting topic. I'm not sure if it is against the rules, though.

 

I'll start with some Roman Emperor's, because they are far in the past:

 

Glorious Sith: Caesar and Augustus, both were extremely powerhungry and clever on their way to power. When they allied themselves with others, it always ended in war until they were the absolute rulers.

 

Glorious Jedi: Marcus Aurelius and Vespasian, both were wise rulers who tried to act for the benefits of everyone. IIRC both were significantly less corrupt, tried to improve life for those people at a disatvantage etc.

 

Of course, all of them wouldn't be perfect Sith or perfect Jedi. They all did some things which look more like something the opposite side would do. Still, legends would tell them as early examples.

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Abe Lincoln Jedi - Ultimate goal was peace and unification, willing to fight for what he believed. Calm leader in the face of dire times. Fought for freedom and equality. Plus, could be one with the force in the Lincoln bedroom (reportedly).

 

Genghis Khan Sith - Dominated, set on conquering world. Ruthless in pursuit of goals. Valued battle as a means to an end. Tore up Oshman's in San Dimas.

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Abe Lincoln Jedi - Ultimate goal was peace and unification, willing to fight for what he believed. Calm leader in the face of dire times. Fought for freedom and equality. Plus, could be one with the force in the Lincoln bedroom (reportedly).

 

Genghis Khan Sith - Dominated, set on conquering world. Ruthless in pursuit of goals. Valued battle as a means to an end. Tore up Oshman's in San Dimas.

 

What the...? Abe Lincoln fought against the states that wanted independence from the union. How is that fighting for freedom?

 

And how can you say that Lincoln wanting "unification" made him a Jedi, but Genghis Khan also unified the clans and yet he's a sith? Doesn't every conqueror want unification? And doesn't every conqueror want peace after they have unified the other countries?

Edited by Kristjansa
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As far as a Jedi, I would go with Joan of Arc. I'm not entirely convinced she was not a Jedi sent from a galaxy far, far away to prevent the Sith from arriving on Earth :rolleyes:. But as far as Jedi goes, I think she fits the bill. Self sacrificing, brave, and quite the legend.

 

Another Jedi I could think of would be MLK. I would liken him to a Sage healer for the way he mended, or attempted to heal the relationship between African Americans and Americans of the time. He preferred to fight with knowledge rather than his fists, he he led the civil rights battle from the forefront.

 

As far as Sith goes...forgive me if anyone is Catholic, but I think a few Catholic popes over the years fit the bill. Not all of them mind you, but a few of them. Controlling, manipulative, deceitful, yet powerful individuals for the most part. One that comes to mind is Pope Boniface VIII. He sought political domination for himself and the papacy of the time. He reminds me of Sidious in a lot of ways.

 

I can probably name more. One that reminds me of a Sith would be Alexander the Great. Not because he was a bad person (although if you were in one of the lands he invaded I'm sure you didn't have kind words for him), but the conquest he led in the name of Greece or Macedonia definitely brings many Sith to mind.

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Saladin - Glorious Jedi. Far ahead of his time, was a superb commander and went beyond the brutalities of the time and valued human life greatly regardless of religion.

 

Hitler (obviously) a great sith lord. Or Grand Moff, whatever :p

 

Hector the Horsetamer - a great Jedi as well. He was just and righteous and a great combatant.

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Jedi - Charles "The Hammer" Martel. A warrior who lead the French in the Battle of Tours in order to preserve Christianity in Western Europe. If Tours had been lost, then Christianity would've died out.

 

Jedi - King Richard the Lionheart. He lead the Third Crusade and scored many victories for Europe. Although he didn't succeed in his crusade, he reached a treaty with Saladin that allowed the Christians to peacefully enter Jerusalem.

 

Jedi - Perseus. Conqueror of Medusa and the Kraken in Greek mythology, he examples bravery and an undying will to succeed. No matter what the hardship, Perseus defeated two feared demons of mythology, and returned a hero.

 

Jedi - Hector of Troy. He was a valiant and noble warrior, Troy's greatest champion, and a peace-loving man. When he saw his home being invaded, he realized that he must fight to keep Troy safe. He died an honorable death at the hands of Achilles.

 

 

Sith - Ghengis Khan. Wanted world domination, and came pretty close. The Monghol Empire was pretty big and powerful.

 

Sith - Osman I of the Ottoman Empire. Conqueror, warrior, leader, only some of the words to describe him. He lead the Ottomans in conquering Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire. A fierce warrior, Osman preferred to lead from the front.

 

Sith - Alexander the Great. Not because he was bad, but because many of the people of the conquered countries would see him as bad. Basileus of Macedon, Hegemon of the Hellanic League, Shahanshah of Persia, Pharaoh of Egypt, Lord of Asia, Alexander has been called all of these. He was a conqueror, and great one at that. He held one of the biggest empires in history, and he will be remembered throughout time.

Edited by Bird_of_Thunder
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Jedi - Charles "The Hammer" Martel. A warrior who lead the French in the Battle of Tours in order to preserve Christianity in Western Europe. If Tours had been lost, then Christianity would've died out.

 

Jedi - King Richard the Lionheart. He lead the Third Crusade and scored many victories for Europe. Although he didn't succeed in his crusade, he reached a treaty with Saladin that allowed the Christians to peacefully enter Jerusalem.

 

Jedi - Perseus. Conqueror of Medusa and the Kraken in Greek mythology, he examples bravery and an undying will to succeed. No matter what the hardship, Perseus defeated two feared demons of mythology, and returned a hero.

 

Jedi - Hector of Troy. He was a valiant and noble warrior, Troy's greatest champion, and a peace-loving man. When he saw his home being invaded, he realized that he must fight to keep Troy safe. He died an honorable death at the hands of Achilles.

 

Can't see how being a crusader is Jedi-like. It's more towards the Sith ends. They invaded and killed thousands. Yeah, the Sarracens weren't any better (for some parts), but at least Saladin didn't kill others because they believed in something else which his counterpart did. The crusaders are arguably like modern day Al-Qaeda to the western world.

I agree with everything else; Hector and Charles Martel. Although Perseus probably isn't a historical person in the same sense as the others.

Edited by Aoussar
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Can't see how being a crusader is Jedi-like. It's more towards the Sith ends. They invaded and killed thousands. Yeah, the Sarracens weren't any better (for some parts), but at least Saladin didn't kill others because they believed in something else which his counterpart did. The crusaders are arguably like modern day Al-Qaeda to the western world.

I agree with everything else; Hector and Charles Martel. Although Perseus probably isn't a historical person in the same sense as the others.

 

The crusades were a little more complicated. (The truth resists simplicity.) I guess we can't discuss it in detail. But Saladin and Richard didn't start it, they joined an already ongoing war. So it is possible that both were Jedi-like persons who happened to be born on different sides. (But both commited cruelties too.)

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The crusades were a little more complicated. (The truth resists simplicity.) I guess we can't discuss it in detail. But Saladin and Richard didn't start it, they joined an already ongoing war. So it is possible that both were Jedi-like persons who happened to be born on different sides. (But both commited cruelties too.)

 

Yeah, that's true. In that sense, I could see Richard as a jedi as well. I was more referring to the crusader's in general. I can't remember which crusade or who wrote it, but there was a christian chronicler in one of them, and he wrote that when they took Jerusalem, they slaughtered everyone and had "Blood to their knees" etc. We spoke about it in school not long ago

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Yeah, that's true. In that sense, I could see Richard as a jedi as well. I was more referring to the crusader's in general. I can't remember which crusade or who wrote it, but there was a christian chronicler in one of them, and he wrote that when they took Jerusalem, they slaughtered everyone and had "Blood to their knees" etc. We spoke about it in school not long ago

 

That was the first crusade. As far as I know, the blood didn't stand to their knees literally, but they sure did kill lots of people, including lots of civilians.

The reasons seem to be more complicated, though. If I remember correctly, it started out with the Byzantine Emperor calling for help against the Turks. And then the Pope was all like: "Hey, if we are already heading there, lets take back Jerusalem." The rest is common knowledge.

 

But even the first crusaders may still be more like Jedi than like Sith. The Sith have rarely been Well-Intentioned Extremists. The Jedi on the other hand have been there at least once, during the First Great Schism.

But, this thread asks for glorious Jedi, and even if the crusaders in the first crusade might have been Jedi-like, they sure weren't glorious Jedi.

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Its pretty obvious,no debate.

 

Jesus Christ-a jedi master that used the light side of the force to heal the sick.He was seer speced.When he was dieing on the cross he resisted the temptation to use his force powers to kill those that tried to harm him and bring himself closer to the dark side ,instead he became one with the force.

 

Stalin- a sith that manipulated everyone around him,turned his enemies againts each other,ordered the killing of his rivals , to get more power.When he got to power in the sith order(communist party) he proceeded to dominate the life and death of millions of people and his subordinates.His empire was evil,but it was strong.He didn't use the force visibly,he didn't need to.The dark side of the force though made him insane and paranoid later in his life like so many dark lords before him.

Edited by Kaedusz
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Hard one this, almost every person in history was an aggressor to someone.

 

Jedi: Jesus, as a healer and teacher. Ghandhi, as a pacifist and nonviolent leader. Thomas Aquinas, as a healer of animals.

 

Sith: Julius Ceasar, a violent conqueror. Lucretia Borgia, a poisoner and manipulator. English teachers, for making people read shakespeare, which is below modern standards and linguistically outdated, shear torture.

 

Please note that almost anyone connected with a war would be veiwable as a sith, as there are at least two sides to any conflict, and war is by nature BRUTAL.

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Jedi

Mahatma Gandhi-He did not fight, but stood up for freedom. He didn't stop until he was assassinated, which ended poorly for the assassin. He was beaten with sticks from the crowd and arrested. The entire world mourned Gandhi's death-India alone grieved for 13 days, and in that time, no public events were held.

 

The Dalai Lama-These individuals, have done much for the Tibetans, and for the world. They are peaceful people, and also fight for freedom and rights. Two main dalai lamas spring to mind-Thubten Gyatso, and Tenzin Gyatso. The latter is the dalai lama today. Thubten fought for Tibetan freedom from the British. He restored order to the monasteries, and made sure the monks didn't have to much power. Tenzin had a Tibetan uprising, was forced him to flee Tibet and into India, where he now travels the world, and preaches Buddhism along with other things, and human rights.

 

Sith

Hitler and any other Axis member

 

Pol Pot-The leader of Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. He murdered about 1/3 the population, and used child soldiers to do so. He attempted to destroy all the books and knowledge in Cambodia, and through his power became Prime Minster. He used slaves, and and put the dead in mass graves, after executing them. In order to save ammo, they were killed with hammers, bamboo, spades, etc.

 

Maximilien Robespierre-The man who had the King of France executed without trial during the French Revolution. He was in charge of the 10 month long "reign of terror"-in which he killed thousands after the revolution had ended. He was finally beheaded by the same people he killed in 1794, without trial.

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That's my list, but I may add more Sith-there are too many evil people in our world.

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Wow. This is an interesting thread. I can't think up a whole lot of ideas that weren't thought up by other guys.

 

JEDI: Saladin. Great guy (compared to many of the Crusaders he fought of that time at least), great leader, great tactician

 

JEDI: Charles Martel (DARNIT - somebody beat me to this one!) excellent leader who unified France and beat an overwhelming Moorish force to save Christianity

 

JEDI: William Wallace? He was a savage no doubt, but perhaps he could have used Mace Windu's Vapaad form to counter the passion and lust for battle inside him? Anyhow he was perhaps a little too passionate to be a Jedi, but he did what it took for freedom.

 

JEDI: Gandhi - duh

 

Yeah... a lot of these (most of them) had already been taken. But the point is is that I agree with them so I essentially reposted some of these historical people.

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Churchill as a Jedi. Led Britain against Germany in WW2. Famous for his oratory and charisma, quite the Jedi general.

 

Hard to call it for Sith, the world wars are the only thing I can think of where it's universally accepted that one side was in the wrong, so Hitler would be the obvious choice. But then unlike Sith, Hitler's motivation wasn't power.

 

Rommel would have made a good Jedi. Disobeyed Hitler when he felt his orders were immoral e.g executing captured Jews and commandos. One of the finest military commanders of the past few hundred years and an all round gentleman. Eventually committed suicide to ensure his family's safety when it was discovered that he was part of the plot to kill Hitler.

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Saladin - Glorious Jedi. Far ahead of his time, was a superb commander and went beyond the brutalities of the time and valued human life greatly regardless of religion.

 

You are mistaken, now as a Sith, he would be awesome.

Edited by yoomazir
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i am guesing u are either english or a history cripple.Churchil was nothing like a jedi.

I'd like to think I'm neither. Are you referring to his drinking and somewhat extravagant expenditure? Care to explain your statement rather than just saying I'm wrong and accusing me of being "a history cripple"?

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