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Server Merge Discussion Thread

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Server Merge Discussion Thread
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
06.24.2017 , 02:51 PM | #1151
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I think you misunderstood the point of my post.

I have no objection to RP servers being maintained as separate entities. In fact, I favor that.

The point I was making was that Keith said they did not want to FORCE players to move, but you seem only willing to settle for ONE "non RP" server, and unwilling to allow those who are happy on their current server to remain their, despite Keith's statement that they want to allow players to stay where they are if they so choose.
Which again will never fully solve the problem in the long term... but if it pleases the players right now then so be it. A pity, but it seems neither sides will be able to be pleased. Because if server merges occur those against will be heavily displeased. If server merges don't occur those for will be heavily displeased.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

Lecto's Avatar


Lecto
06.24.2017 , 02:51 PM | #1152
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
While I understand your concern, don't pretend the RP community is holy. The RP community can be just as toxic and "friendly" I have multiple examples of where fellow rp'ers treated eachother horribly (to put it mildly) over silly nothings really. Maybe that was just the Progenitor... but I doubt it.
Like I said, I won't go out of my way to grief anyone, but I will play as I normally would on my PvP server back in it's prime. And, I will use the general chat to facilitate group formation as necessary in populated areas. IF Shadowlands & Jedi Covenant are not consolidated, Ebon Hawk is the obvious choice if it is what I understand it to be as the most populated East Cost NA server.

Trust me, other guilds on my server will follow my logic & we will move as a unit when the time comes. Being such a small server, all the guilds are intimately aware of each other. You will get all of us if things play out as Keith has described. If you don't want us on your server, it's in your best interest to sign-off on what I'm calling the "3 server solution" for North America: 1 East Coast (PvP/PvE), 1 West Coast (PvP/RP), & 1 RP Server. Said solution leaves Ebon Hawk alone & untouched.
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return". ~ Moulin Rouge
Join "Tao Covenant" today!
Twitter: @Lecto10

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
06.24.2017 , 02:51 PM | #1153
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post

And I ask once more, you say I disregard the arguments of the RP'ers, please, enlighten me. I asked once, I will ask again, no problem. Why would server merges ruin RP? As a fellow rp'er I'd very much like to know. Perhaps I am missing a perspective in my view of the matter so I'd gladly hear it.
You already KNOW what the concerns of the RP'ers are and the arguments surrounding those concerns.

In fact, you specifically said not to bring up argument "X". You KNOW what those concerns are and you choose to dismiss and ignore them. I'm guessing that is because they do not mesh with your "vision" of a megaserver.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
06.24.2017 , 02:53 PM | #1154
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I've never played on the Progenitor, but I can tell you I have never seen any of that type of toxicity from the RPe'rs on Ebon Hawk. I have seen that type of toxicity directed AT the RP'ers on Ebon Hawk, though.

That is just my experience. YMMV.
Then I am truly happy that you did not experience what some of my friends had as well as myself. Because I'd not wish that kind of treatment onto anyone. Trust me, I was a dedicated rp'er, I loved doing events, participate in them and help guild leaderships. It really a passion of mine and it would have taken a lot to kill that. I left the Progenitor for the Red Eclipse so I think that says enough about what happened.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
06.24.2017 , 02:55 PM | #1155
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
You already KNOW what the concerns of the RP'ers are and the arguments surrounding those concerns.

In fact, you specifically said not to bring up argument "X". You KNOW what those concerns are and you choose to dismiss and ignore them. I'm guessing that is because they do not mesh with your "vision" of a megaserver.
Trolls, very well. So let me ask you how you deal with trolls this moment on your server as I can't believe they aren't there already.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
06.24.2017 , 02:59 PM | #1156
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Which again will never fully solve the problem in the long term... but if it pleases the players right now then so be it. A pity, but it seems neither sides will be able to be pleased. Because if server merges occur those against will be heavily displeased. If server merges don't occur those for will be heavily displeased.
You are correct that BW cannot please everyone.

Judging from that podcast and Keith's interview, it would appear that those who will only accept a megaserver will be disappointed.

However, I think that many will be happy overall, PROVIDED they can get the technical issue resolved.

IF they can get the technical issues resolved, those wishing to play on a higher population server will have the chance to transfer to a new, higher capacity server without losing any guild or personal assets, while those that are happy where they are would get to remain there.

That is just my interpretation of that interview, though.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
06.24.2017 , 03:06 PM | #1157
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Trolls, very well. So let me ask you how you deal with trolls this moment on your server as I can't believe they aren't there already.
It is true that there are trolls on every server.

However, there is a huge difference between Johnny having to choose whether to "work on his main" on server X or going to server Y to grief and troll the RP'ers and being able to remain on server X to "work on his main" but simply pop into an RP instance to grief and troll the RP'ers.

If Billy cannot, or will not, see the difference, that is a "Billy" problem and not a problem caused by the RP'ers.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
06.24.2017 , 03:16 PM | #1158
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
It is true that there are trolls on every server.

However, there is a huge difference between Johnny having to choose whether to "work on his main" on server X or going to server Y to grief and troll the RP'ers and being able to remain on server X to "work on his main" but simply pop into an RP instance to grief and troll the RP'ers.

If Billy cannot, or will not, see the difference, that is a "Billy" problem and not a problem caused by the RP'ers.
Okay true, I believe regarding this we can reach consensus. At the moment if someone wants to specifically target and troll RP'ers than they'd have to cross that barrier to go to the RP server to grief them there. They'd have to be quite fixed on trolling the rp'ers to actually go do that which in most cases they won't be.
While I understand a megaserver would take that barrier away, I don't think there will be a lot of people who will actually go and grief rp'ers. I mean how petty do you have to be to do that anyway, right? Nonetheless, there would be a few of them true, but I think the RP community does have the experience from over the years to deal with trolls. The best way is to of course ignore them or even report them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
You are correct that BW cannot please everyone.

Judging from that podcast and Keith's interview, it would appear that those who will only accept a megaserver will be disappointed.

However, I think that many will be happy overall, PROVIDED they can get the technical issue resolved.

IF they can get the technical issues resolved, those wishing to play on a higher population server will have the chance to transfer to a new, higher capacity server without losing any guild or personal assets, while those that are happy where they are would get to remain there.

That is just my interpretation of that interview, though.
Not having a megaserver would be a pity, but not a necessity though. As long as they'd bring down the 9 European servers to 3, one English, one German and one French for example that would be enough for me. I'd be satisfied then. But the solution as talked about in the podcast isn't a bad one, it would perhaps allow me to renew my effort to get some RP guilds to migrate to the Red Eclipse from the Progenitor, but from the last backlash I won't hold my breath. Still, the solution Bioware offers is not bad and at least something, but in my personal opinion it won't be enough for in the long run.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

Pliskie's Avatar


Pliskie
06.24.2017 , 03:19 PM | #1159
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post

Then what can we give to you in return? Having people not transfer along with server merges will only lead to having the same problem all over from the start. If you want to stay on your server then please, do so. But that will leave us in the exact same situation we had before where multiple servers are pretty much ghost towns due to low player activity. Look at Tomb of Freedon Nadd on the EU servers, there are only a handful of players there and a server merge would help them get to a server with more players and a more active playerbase.
Let me chime in into that because you make a mistake right here. Especially the community of TOFN took matters in their own hands. They have build a guild alliance with many guilds inside, with a cross guild discord and a cross guild chat. It includes both sides, still several thousand accounts. In that community the players of TOFN can do ops, warzones, uprisings and GSF together and they simply do so. Of course one could still argue it is highly organised and it requiered people to find their way into that guild alliance. But if a player is really interested in the game, they stick around a little longer due story until they fall over one of the recruiters. The players are spread over the whole game world zone (which is enourmos) and so you dont see too many in the fleets. That gives a wrong impression. That guild alliance guides new players into what TOFN is and that if they dont want to socialize on a certain level, TOFN just isn't the right server for them. It is 50% chance they stay with TOFN instead of TRE due community and new found friends. (Surely higher that is my lowest estimate of players I see over several months.)

Something to consider, many of the players of TOFN went to TRE, stayed for a few days and hated it there. A lot of guilds failed to survive the transition they tried. I was in one of those guilds, not even four weeks it took that people left besides getting warzones regulary. Fast que times does not seem to be everything for a large part of players. Many of those players returnt to TOFN and rebuilt, invested in that guild Alliance... yeah you have read right, they are back on the so- called dead server and started solving the problem with too much spreading of the players through the game world. Also old veterans came from TRE and joined TOFN for the first time, because they felt their original server went downhill with the influx of players from the other servers. It is just that TOFN is big enough to get all stuff done, but TOFN is not big enough that you can act like an idiot without angering the close knit communities. If you speak about "server merger" in a guild/alliance channel you will find very few support. If the TOFN players would be forcely merged with TRE, the community will loose players. It is close to 90% disagreement in the chats with merging with TRE.

The big majority of players threatens to leave and a lot will just do it like in the first two mergers BW did. I wont go so far to think that all who say "we leave" do so. So lets say approximately 50% quit right away when a forced merger comes, the rest stays. So it also was with the first mergers, the half of the players did just not bother with resettleling and reintegration. Of course it was not as visible because the game was still young and players still stormed the gates. Today TOR is nearly six years old, already a dinosaur in terms of computer games. The compromise with the "server merge" which seems to have the most support inside the guild alliance is "If we must merge, if we really must, then only with Progenitor. Roleplayers and us might work, but TRE and us does not."

Let's see further. The 50% staying inside the guild alliance of former TOFN players.. how will they react after a forced merger. Of course they will stay within the guild alliance mostly. That are their friends, their peer group, their favourite enmies. They would mostly not bother with the current TRE players the majority/opinion leaders experienced alreaedy as toxic, bad mannered or outright tools. Besides the planned stuff inside the guild alliance will keep the players busy enough. Such an allince also has a "negative effect" as it will even pull more highly social skilled players out of the pool of theTRE players. So a marginal amout of players would join pugs, ques and it is also questionable that pugs are taken into ops, uprisings, flashpoint groups. So think about what a merge would solve for TRE... I am afraid nothing significant in terms of que times. The players will not magically start to que with you or go against your groups in PvP. If they even do they mostly appear as premade and might stomp you destroying PvP and GSF even more for guildless/less social players.

That is what Ratajack and Casi (sorry Casi, I dont remember the second part of your name) mean, you dont even consider the other players. You dont consider the effects on target and source server. I am absolutly sure that also the other "dead" servers have a working, thriving community, especially when I read Casi I think behind her stands a very active, very social and highly organized community. The "merge server into one" crowd in the opposite brush about these communities they have no clue about. They dont even remotly consider the devasting effects on such a forced move. They cant believe a merge will currently hurt the game even more. Strong, close knit communities you can not move without doing heavy damage simply because of human nature. And that is something Keith has obviously understood. The compromise is not "merge all into one server" a compromise is "let the people chose where to go or stay". A compromise is that communities are asked when they are forcebly moved where to be moved which is hard as also the target server would need a voice. In the case TOFN, the preference is sadly for you on TRE... not your server.

So to the last point, the "but we will end at the same point again" in the future. Of course we will. It is the run of the world. We are not eternal as humans, our artefacts are not eternal. Every game will die as every men will die. But to cover in fear of the future and do something unreasonable will only speed up the demise. If TOR loses too many players too fast, you end the game faster then it must have ended. You "merge the servers in one megaserver" crowd do not care for the game, only for yourself. If you would care for the game, you would already gotten it into your heads, that not the amount of random players who come and go make the game. It is the stable players who organize themselves, may it be the raiders, the PvPers or the roleplayers. The communities keep players in game, never the content. Content gets stale, friends not. I ask all of you advocating a complete merge to keep that in mind and to remember that especially the endgame raid guilds left as whole group... ask yourself why and I dont mean the "not enough content" (what is definitive a true point but does not explain why all at once).

So what I wanted to say is, if we reach in three years (hypothetically) the same point as now it is another situation due communities evolve. The opinion might swing, the communities might pull the other guilds into a similar stance or break, or the many trolls leave in big amounts (one can hope). The only fact staying, nobody knows what is in three years. Maybe Keith and his crew have a golden idea and turn the game in a way, people return in masses and we need to open up new servers. Maybe we do a further nose dive, the fact stays the situation must be reviewed in regular turns. In my opinion and in what I see on TOFN, TRE and Prog a merger all three in one will be highly destructive. TRE alone and Prog/TOFN might work for now in this moment, seen from TOFN and if Prog wants TOFN players. I more had the feeling, they are very sceptical having a larger group of those PvP freaks of TOFN coming over to them then that is what the normal Prog player thinks.

PS: I refrain of course from judgeing the french/german and US servers. I just dont play on them enough to feel confident that I understand their character and players on them.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
06.24.2017 , 03:30 PM | #1160
Quote: Originally Posted by Pliskie View Post
Let me chime in into that because you make a mistake right here. Especially the community of TOFN took matters in their own hands. They have build a guild alliance with many guilds inside, with a cross guild discord and a cross guild chat. It includes both sides, still several thousand accounts. In that community the players of TOFN can do ops, warzones, uprisings and GSF together and they simply do so. Of course one could still argue it is highly organised and it requiered people to find their way into that guild alliance. But if a player is really interested in the game, they stick around a little longer due story until they fall over one of the recruiters. The players are spread over the whole game world zone (which is enourmos) and so you dont see too many in the fleets. That gives a wrong impression. That guild alliance guides new players into what TOFN is and that if they dont want to socialize on a certain level, TOFN just isn't the right server for them. It is 50% chance they stay with TOFN instead of TRE due community and new found friends. (Surely higher that is my lowest estimate of players I see over several months.)

Something to consider, many of the players of TOFN went to TRE, stayed for a few days and hated it there. A lot of guilds failed to survive the transition they tried. I was in one of those guilds, not even four weeks it took that people left besides getting warzones regulary. Fast que times does not seem to be everything for a large part of players. Many of those players returnt to TOFN and rebuilt, invested in that guild Alliance... yeah you have read right, they are back on the so- called dead server and started solving the problem with too much spreading of the players through the game world. Also old veterans came from TRE and joined TOFN for the first time, because they felt their original server went downhill with the influx of players from the other servers. It is just that TOFN is big enough to get all stuff done, but TOFN is not big enough that you can act like an idiot without angering the close knit communities. If you speak about "server merger" in a guild/alliance channel you will find very few support. If the TOFN players would be forcely merged with TRE, the community will loose players. It is close to 90% disagreement in the chats with merging with TRE.

The big majority of players threatens to leave and a lot will just do it like in the first two mergers BW did. I wont go so far to think that all who say "we leave" do so. So lets say approximately 50% quit right away when a forced merger comes, the rest stays. So it also was with the first mergers, the half of the players did just not bother with resettleling and reintegration. Of course it was not as visible because the game was still young and players still stormed the gates. Today TOR is nearly six years old, already a dinosaur in terms of computer games. The compromise with the "server merge" which seems to have the most support inside the guild alliance is "If we must merge, if we really must, then only with Progenitor. Roleplayers and us might work, but TRE and us does not."

Let's see further. The 50% staying inside the guild alliance of former TOFN players.. how will they react after a forced merger. Of course they will stay within the guild alliance mostly. That are their friends, their peer group, their favourite enmies. They would mostly not bother with the current TRE players the majority/opinion leaders experienced alreaedy as toxic, bad mannered or outright tools. Besides the planned stuff inside the guild alliance will keep the players busy enough. Such an allince also has a "negative effect" as it will even pull more highly social skilled players out of the pool of theTRE players. So a marginal amout of players would join pugs, ques and it is also questionable that pugs are taken into ops, uprisings, flashpoint groups. So think about what a merge would solve for TRE... I am afraid nothing significant in terms of que times. The players will not magically start to que with you or go against your groups in PvP. If they even do they mostly appear as premade and might stomp you destroying PvP and GSF even more for guildless/less social players.

That is what Ratajack and Casi (sorry Casi, I dont remember the second part of your name) mean, you dont even consider the other players. You dont consider the effects on target and source server. I am absolutly sure that also the other "dead" servers have a working, thriving community, especially when I read Casi I think behind her stands a very active, very social and highly organized community. The "merge server into one" crowd in the opposite brush about these communities they have no clue about. They dont even remotly consider the devasting effects on such a forced move. They cant believe a merge will currently hurt the game even more. Strong, close knit communities you can not move without doing heavy damage simply because of human nature. And that is something Keith has obviously understood. The compromise is not "merge all into one server" a compromise is "let the people chose where to go or stay". A compromise is that communities are asked when they are forcebly moved where to be moved which is hard as also the target server would need a voice. In the case TOFN, the preference is sadly for you on TRE... not your server.

So to the last point, the "but we will end at the same point again" in the future. Of course we will. It is the run of the world. We are not eternal as humans, our artefacts are not eternal. Every game will die as every men will die. But to cover in fear of the future and do something unreasonable will only speed up the demise. If TOR loses too many players too fast, you end the game faster then it must have ended. You "merge the servers in one megaserver" crowd do not care for the game, only for yourself. If you would care for the game, you would already gotten it into your heads, that not the amount of random players who come and go make the game. It is the stable players who organize themselves, may it be the raiders, the PvPers or the roleplayers. The communities keep players in game, never the content. Content gets stale, friends not. I ask all of you advocating a complete merge to keep that in mind and to remember that especially the endgame raid guilds left as whole group... ask yourself why and I dont mean the "not enough content" (what is definitive a true point but does not explain why all at once).

So what I wanted to say is, if we reach in three years (hypothetically) the same point as now it is another situation due communities evolve. The opinion might swing, the communities might pull the other guilds into a similar stance or break, or the many trolls leave in big amounts (one can hope). The only fact staying, nobody knows what is in three years. Maybe Keith and his crew have a golden idea and turn the game in a way, people return in masses and we need to open up new servers. Maybe we do a further nose dive, the fact stays the situation must be reviewed in regular turns. In my opinion and in what I see on TOFN, TRE and Prog a merger all three in one will be highly destructive. TRE alone and Prog/TOFN might work for now in this moment, seen from TOFN and if Prog wants TOFN players. I more had the feeling, they are very sceptical having a larger group of those PvP freaks of TOFN coming over to them then that is what the normal Prog player thinks.

PS: I refrain of course from judgeing the french/german and US servers. I just dont play on them enough to feel confident that I understand their character and players on them.
Alright, my opinion is changing now that I am listening to the podcast and having learned of the TOFN Alliance, I will admit I had no idea there was such a community there. From what I heard it was a ghost town but seemingly I was misinformed, so I apologise for that.

Perhaps the idea Keith suggested, giving guilds the choice to move or not to other servers if they fix that technical issue is a better one that forced merges. While I still think megaservers would be the best solution, it may not be the solution we need.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!