Males like to establish power hierarchies.

 

Having a X could beat Y debate, his power level is so much higher blah blah, is just an extension of this.

 

Really I agree though, this kind of thing leads to silliness and boring unimaginative plots.

 

The original star wars movies were good as someone above me said because it wasn't about duels between characters to see who's dick is longer. Even when there were "epic duels" like luke vs. vader it was about luke trying to rescue the stronger vader from darkness and was placed in the context of a larger story where non-force sensitives were also critical. And the jedi weren't invincible (obi wan didn't kill everyone in a swath on the death star, he snuck around so they wouldn't get overwhelmed), they just had a slight advantage and had to use subterfuge to succeed.

 

It does explain al the Fantasy Football, Boxing, and historic battle scernario's

Errr guys doesn't this writing have to do with the way Life (Death) esp. in War and Combat works in the real world? To me its is nothing to do with DBZ (which I know nothing about).

 

3 very good examples where real life with evil (depending which side you are on) all Powerful leaders, that came to a less than dramatic if very undignified end, caught out by ordinary soldiers or didn't even put up a fight 1) Saddam Hussein, 2) Osama Bin Laden 3) Col.Gaddafi.

I wonder who will be next?

 

As far as other world leaders go, Our own Mrs Thatcher has dementia and Churchill died in bed after a series of strokes.

 

When you relate this to the fiction of SWUniverse I think Palpatine being defeated by Vader (who had had nurtured as a little boy and then who he destroyed to save as a young man) who picked him up trying to save his new found Son and throwing him down a Vent after a hand to hand/force battle is therefore way more exciting than real life.

You people sure cry alot about how ****** Jedi and whatnot are. I seem to recall the Jedi and associated force sensitives being SLAUGHTERED TO A MAN in some movie.

 

Oh right. Episode III. Unstoppable ministers of death? It's called plot armor, scrubs. If you, as an author, wrote a story and killed your characters every time they went against even remotely lopsided odds you'd be writing very short, very disjointed stories.

 

So the author or whatever wants to have a Jedi fight off a small army of troopers and starships. For f's sake if you don't like it move on. Watch a sitcom if you can't handle so-called powerlevels and abilities that make you far more powerful than the average jerksauce guy with stormtrooper armor and a blaster.

 

And yes, every dog has his day. Totally agree with that statement. Even the best, brightest and most ****** make mistakes.

 

Further, to the first point I made, maybe they're some crazy ninjas with super powers and laser swords but they got played HARD. Force powers can't be all that great if they couldn't see those blaster bolts coming at their backs.

Edited January 30, 2012 by PartVI

I agree here. Would love to see this trilogy transferred into a movie trilogy. And could rightly be named Episodes 7-9.

 

I liked the X-Wing books as well. Partly because they took the focus away from Jedi, and partly because when he then went on to write I, Jedi, he wrote that scene where Corran realizes that even using the force will never make him quite as awesome a pilot as the really top ones like Wedge.

@ Part VI

 

I can understand plot armor to a point, but if you have some character destroy an entire army with his magic mind powers only to be killed in five seconds by a handful of clones, it creates an inconsistence with the audience.

 

In the back of their minds they are thinking, "wait didn't this Jedi have a hundred bad guys shooting at him before, and he didn't even break a sweat in deflecting all the shots, why doesn't he do the same thing here?"

 

A perfect example of this is (like mentioned above) Obi-Wan moving at unimaginable speeds to evad the droidikas (sp?), but then is suddenly unable to do the same thing when trying to come to Qui Gon's aid.

 

Plot armor enables a pivitol character to survive the story, but like any form of storytelling, it can be done poorly. If your character is god-like with plot armor on, but then instantly dies without plot armor, it creates a disconect with your audience.

 

But if your plot armor mearly gives said character a slight edge in battle; forcing the character to have to "work" to stay alive; then you have them die to a handful of soldiers, the audience isn't as "jarred".

 

People can get behind, root for, and then cry for a character that is thrust into a crazy situation and has to use their wits and skill to survive. A character that escapes danger by the skin of their teeth, and if need be, dies in a last stand, or as a sacrifice to help the other characters escape has depth.

 

Not somebody with "GodMode" enabled that slaughters entire armies single-handedly, but then is killed by five guys because their "cheat code" wore off.

 

A perfect example of good plot armor is Obi-Wan in episode IV, when he is sneaking through the Death Star to deactivate the tractor beam. Does he run straight through the station, killing all the stormtroopers he sees? No he uses stealth, he avoids all confrontation. Then after deactivating the tractor beam he sneaks back to the docking bay only to get caught by Vader.

 

Now if the movie did have Obi-Wan carve a swath of destruction across the Death Star, would this fight scene carry as much weight?

 

IMO no, firstly because we as an audience would have had a entire section of non stop action as Obi Wan killed everybody, making his battle with Vader seem lackluster in comparasion, but it would also rob the story of the build up to the fight; we would be unable to root for Obi Wan as he snuck through the battlestaion and hope that he escapes if the whole previous scence was just a mind-numbing action shot.

 

IMHO Jedi and Sith are best in small (believable) doses; being the mysterious warrior monk, or terrifying scorceror; not some dime a doze archatype that really only exists to say: "Hey everybody look what I can do!"

I'd take Solo Luck over The Force any day. Has a much lower casualty rate.

Never get caught off-guard in a monologue, if you have them beat, and they are too dangerous, or unable, to be taken alive, finish them off.

i stopped taking the force seriously when it became canon that the force can turn samuel l jackson into an MMA demigod and allow him to punch an army of robots to death

IMHO Jedi and Sith are best in small (believable) doses; being the mysterious warrior monk, or terrifying scorceror; not some dime a doze archatype that really only exists to say: "Hey everybody look what I can do!"

 

But what we have to face is that there ARE characters in which can wield unbelievable powers. Everyone can't be the same power, or just "slightly" better, because then no one is special. They would all be bland or boring.

 

Some Jedi are exceedingly powerful, some Sith are more cunning, some Jedi use their wits, and some Sith are only capable of advanced telepathy but little else.

 

There has to be differences between them, and the EU has pretty much covered all the bases on that. From the Almighty Luke to the Soul Searching Jaden Korr down to the Witty Ben Skywalker.

Edited January 30, 2012 by MaceTowani

@ Part VI

 

 

A perfect example of this is (like mentioned above) Obi-Wan moving at unimaginable speeds to evad the droidikas (sp?), but then is suddenly unable to do the same thing when trying to come to Qui Gon's aid.

 

 

 

You forget the laser shield doors, if he was running at the force speed and the doors closed he wouldn't have time to react and he would die from the impact.

You forget the laser shield doors, if he was running at the force speed and the doors closed he wouldn't have time to react and he would die from the impact.

 

if he has the reflexes to block lasers by moving his arms im sure he could stop in time. plus they stayed open for like 30 seconds.

Look up on YouTube what would have happened if Obi-Wan used his force speed when dueling Darth Maul. Worth the laugh!

 

Don't forget, guys, that the metric for action in a live action movie is different than in a cartoon. Sure, Mace Windu destroyed a ton of battle droids in the cartoon, but that would come off as silly in the movies. Try to take the actions of the characters in cartoons and even comics (to a degree) as highly exaggerated. The novels usually hit closer to the mark as far as "realistic" power levels compared to the films.

if he has the reflexes to block lasers by moving his arms im sure he could stop in time. plus they stayed open for like 30 seconds.

 

Who says he didn't use force speed in the movies? In the book he does, but how do you know in the movies he doesn't? All we see is him leaping back up on the platform, and then just start to run before it switches to Qui-gon and Maul by the time we see Obi-Wan again he stops right infront of the laser doors.

Telekenetic Wave = Spirit Bomb, check the animation.

I like how Jedi being able to run really fast never ever comes up again.

i stopped taking the force seriously when it became canon that the force can turn samuel l jackson into an MMA demigod and allow him to punch an army of robots to death

 

I think the cartoon should be ousted from Canon, but that's just me. It was so clearly meant to appeal to small children.

It's simple, really, OP. Gaming is a childish activity by its natures, as is the indulgence of speculative fiction. As such, it breeds the occasional bought of childish behavior and outburst of juvenile thought. It's a justification of what you like or a return to the argument of whose dad can beat up who in elementary school. There is nothing inherently wrong in this activity until it becomes leverage for a sense of some form of false personal superiority.

Why do we keep Saying? Jedi/Sith X can never beat Jedi/Sith Y because the forcepowers........yada yada yada Relics.......yada yada yada lightsaber form...............

 

In my personal experience in hand to hand combat. martial arts, combat sport. "Every dog has it's day." Provided there is a certain skill level and proper motivation.

 

In real life you don't go up against opponents that can foresee the future, move faster than the eye can see, or release wormholes capable of ripping through multiple planets at once.

 

There's two things that come to mind where characters have the power to do this.

 

DBZ and Star Wars.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Rhyltran

Lightsider x will never be able to beat darksider y or vice versa unless the force is on his side, by using the force you're essentially allowing yourself to be its puppet soldier in its eternal war to equalize both sides.

 

Simple truth.

In Star Wars, it is all about destiny. That is, from my point of view, the entire point of the Force.

 

The Good guy wins because they were meant to. If they fail, likewise.

 

The paths are many, but there is a set destination. Anakin learned that the hard (read: immolated) way.

 

If a Certain jedi is meant to overthrow a certain sith, it doesn't really matter if he is that much more powerful. He will be overthrown.

 

Likewise, if a Sith is meant to, I don't know, bring the republic to its knees and end the jedi order, then he will.

Everyone seems to be talking like all jedi are godlike when in my memory there are only a handful of really powerful jedi and sith.. I mean didn't most of them die from clonetrooper fire quite easily at the end of ep 3 if my memory serves me correctly? why is this even up for a debate when you see how fast they can fall. the movie is long but takes maybe 5 min and there's only obi one, yoda, anakin and the emperor left as force users.

Everyone seems to be talking like all jedi are godlike when in my memory there are only a handful of really powerful jedi and sith.. I mean didn't most of them die from clonetrooper fire quite easily at the end of ep 3 if my memory serves me correctly? why is this even up for a debate when you see how fast they can fall. the movie is long but takes maybe 5 min and there's only obi one, yoda, anakin and the emperor left as force users.

 

Your also forgetting the ones that actually reacted fast enough and killed their clone troopers and got away and went into hiding.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi