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why nerf a 3dps class


ultimarb's Avatar


ultimarb
11.22.2018 , 08:22 AM | #21
on which particular pve boss encounter will fury maras have more dps than anni maras? ok i got it. the all mighty fearsome operation dummy...the ****** of all nim bosses.
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mrphstar's Avatar


mrphstar
11.24.2018 , 07:58 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by ultimarb View Post
on which particular pve boss encounter will fury maras have more dps than anni maras? ok i got it. the all mighty fearsome operation dummy...the ****** of all nim bosses.
tell me, how wouldnt a dummy parse not translate into a single target boss fight, if you can keep max. uptime?
other than bosses with adds or more than one target in spread range, fury should and will perform better than anni.
none of them got signifcant bonuses from getting damage, either (atleast none the other doesnt have).

dont know what your fury maras are doing, but if you are telling me furys dps get lower just because we got a moving target now, thats simply wrong.

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
11.24.2018 , 09:15 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by mrphstar View Post
tell me, how wouldnt a dummy parse not translate into a single target boss fight, if you can keep max. uptime?
other than bosses with adds or more than one target in spread range, fury should and will perform better than anni.
none of them got signifcant bonuses from getting damage, either (atleast none the other doesnt have).

dont know what your fury maras are doing, but if you are telling me furys dps get lower just because we got a moving target now, thats simply wrong.
The problems with fury that make its dps lower on most bosses are 2 things. The first issue is obliterate because it repositions you and locks you from moving anywhere else. On bosses that move, especially smaller faster moving ones, you cannot always move with the boss and will lose a gcd or 2 depending on how far the boss moves. Brontes burn is a pretty big culprit for this (though fury can still possibly do well there depending on how many knockback you resist). The reason this is an issue is because you cannot move with the boss like other specs. Sure for a couple specs you could stand in front of where the boss is moving, but that canít be done for all fights if there is a frontal aoe or you canít because of positioning requirements. Obliterateís repositioning can also be very punishing for bosses that require strict positioning. Nothing quite like obliterating into fire on tyrans or a pin on nahut.

The second issue is how strict most of the rotation is. Often times when you lose a gcd to the reasons above or other reasons that are melee or mechanic specific. For other specs like anni, they can just start back up with their priority system so their main abilities coming off cd faster means they can use it sooner. For fury, you canít just skip abilities because your main hits are off cd sooner. If I get interrupted between raging burst and furious strike, I canít just use raging burst several gcdís earlier or else I could seriously mess up the rotation. Doing stuff like that can mess up the amount of rage you have which is very punishing (fury is less important in ops since you usually get plenty extra).

Overall I think fury is in a rather balanced state, I think it should be one of the higher dummy parsing specs because of how much its dps falls off in fights compared to other specs. Thereís a reason why you donít see Fury parses at the top of the leaderboards for ops bosses and itís not because nobody plays it. Iíd still play anni for sustained fights and carnage for burst fights, but fury is still very good for burst fights (I just personally prefer carnage), and fury still puts out enough plenty enough for sustained fights. The best mara pvp spec for dps (I think their dps is fine for pvp, itís just all the mara dcdís plus fury cc immunity makes it a bit over the top) plus being plenty viable for ops makes fury dps in a pretty good state. If they just changed obliterate to not move you if under 4m like how low slash is different in melee range, I think fury would become a lot more preferable.
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mrphstar's Avatar


mrphstar
11.24.2018 , 02:34 PM | #24
ok, i see the problem now.
you are following these dulfy/vulkk guides and their rotation.

ever thought about adjusting the rotation just a lil bit, so you always got "ranged" attacks after obliterate? thought so...
you can swap skills within the rotation so theres always a force scream or raging burst after obliterate to use as gap closer, without breaking the ressoource management. only problem is, you gotta start and keep this "new" sequence for the whole fight. first problem solved.

second problem isnt realy a problem. if there is no priority system, you dont have to follow it. in contrast to DoT specs you dont have to reapply your DoTs to hold them on cooldown. you can use any ability at any time, as long as you use them once (twiche for raging burst etc.) in a sequence. and theres no such fight that has a tiny window where it would only allow you to get 2 or 3 GCDs in.

futher more, obliterate gives you an additional gap closer without losing dps, no other melee class can do that (since shadow step got suffered from the GCD nerf recently). so there are atleast the same amount of pros as cons for obliterate. theres exactly one fight where fury is realy bad, thats revan, cuz you get punished for cahrging at the core. you can compensate the relocation of obliterate in every other fight, if played correctly.

if we are talking about fights like brontes where you suffer from multiple knockbacks reducing your uptime, thats a problem for EVERY class, not just fury. so no valid point here.

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
11.24.2018 , 06:11 PM | #25
I mean I'd love to see someone push the limits of fury and do as much or more dps than anni (and somewhat carnage for moving bosses), but in my experience in nim ops, both anni and carnage give a lot more rotational flexibility and consistently do more dps. I'm not just theorycrafting that in my head, that's my experience from playing it and talking with other who have played it in nim ops. If you or someone you know can do that, I'd love to see it (not saying this sarcastically, I genuinely mean it). Even players that I know that are very good at fury will consistently do more dps in the other specs. Yes you can move around abilities, but the optimal rotation is extremely rigid, and deviating from that a lot significantly decreases dps, this goes for all specs, it's just that fury is one of the most punished by it.
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Iceslasher's Avatar


Iceslasher
11.24.2018 , 11:33 PM | #26
NO WAY ...complaints about nerfs on warriors..SRSLY...ok how about trying out the NERF on MERCS and SNIPERS and SORCS ....When you are at the bottom of the trash bin THEN Snivel and WHINE until then ..be happy you can destroy everyone and everything oh...and get into every raid available..because hey someone somewhere thought that only Warriors, and Jugs should be able to do OPS forget HEALS ...you don't need any because THEY NERFED those to the hades and beyond as well!

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
11.25.2018 , 05:10 PM | #27
Snipers and Mercs are perfectly fine, some would even argue they are even better than Warriors, Sorcs are bad but that has at least been quite consistent since launch so I don't really mind. I think you might need to do some more research on classes and their DPS potential Iceslasher.

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Phelnis's Avatar


Phelnis
11.25.2018 , 05:31 PM | #28
I'm rolling in HERE... To say...
NEVER.

Please NEVER call a Dmg dealer only class a "Three Dmg class."
Just CALL IT a Dmg only class.

Otherwise, add more information...
3 dmg spec class... (NEVER A "3 DMG CLASS)
Here is my Refer Code >>v
Marnis'necro 70Sentinel, Marnis 70Sage, GabuYoshi 70Commando
Marnis'soulja 65Assassin , Phelnis'necro 65Operative

ultimarb's Avatar


ultimarb
11.26.2018 , 02:51 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by mrphstar View Post
ok, i see the problem now.
you are following these dulfy/vulkk guides and their rotation.

ever thought about adjusting the rotation just a lil bit, so you always got "ranged" attacks after obliterate? thought so...
you can swap skills within the rotation so theres always a force scream or raging burst after obliterate to use as gap closer, without breaking the ressoource management. only problem is, you gotta start and keep this "new" sequence for the whole fight. first problem solved.

second problem isnt realy a problem. if there is no priority system, you dont have to follow it. in contrast to DoT specs you dont have to reapply your DoTs to hold them on cooldown. you can use any ability at any time, as long as you use them once (twiche for raging burst etc.) in a sequence. and theres no such fight that has a tiny window where it would only allow you to get 2 or 3 GCDs in.

futher more, obliterate gives you an additional gap closer without losing dps, no other melee class can do that (since shadow step got suffered from the GCD nerf recently). so there are atleast the same amount of pros as cons for obliterate. theres exactly one fight where fury is realy bad, thats revan, cuz you get punished for cahrging at the core. you can compensate the relocation of obliterate in every other fight, if played correctly.

if we are talking about fights like brontes where you suffer from multiple knockbacks reducing your uptime, thats a problem for EVERY class, not just fury. so no valid point here.


HM Ops:
Mono- Anni

Malaphar - Anni
Walkers - Fury
Underluker - Anni
Rev Commanders - Anni
Revan - Anni

Sparky - Anni
Bulo - Anni
Torch - Anni
Master & Blaster - Anni
Cora - Fury

Nim Ops

Denova
Both can be better at to bosses i think

Asation
Horror - Anni
Dread Guards - Anni
Operator - if you wanna risk relocation in color phase fury
kephess - tie of all three
Terror - tie

S&v
dahsroode - anni
titan 6 - anni
thrasher - tie
operation chief- carnage
olok - irrelevant boring fight
cartel warlords - anni
styrak - carnage/anni
hateful - anni

df
nefra - fury
draxus - anni
grobthok - anni
corrupter - anni
brontes - anni

dp
bestia - anno
tyrans - anni
calphy - anni
raptus - fury
council - anni

gods mm
tyth - anni
a&e - anni
nahut - anni
scyva - anni
izax - (not seen yet on pts but asuming hardmode) - anni
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FiLaBugh's Avatar


FiLaBugh
11.26.2018 , 04:25 PM | #30
First every Spec works for everything imo, but Fury in Tyrans and Revan and maybe a couple more can be painfull to say the least, every other boss fury works ok but with the obvious problems associated with obliterate.

Pvp fury its great for dealing damage due to some class abilities coupled with some spec abilities. Like root breaker on a very short cooldown that is also a 10m leap thats its also a 1s root, an ability thats slows targets until a 5% slow and that fits perfectly with your burst and ofc a short cd recurrent 6s cc imunity that its very hard to check for oponents. That coupled with very high sustained damage a braindead short rotation, since apart from 1 ability, all of other rotational abilities can potentialy do 15k or more hits. But all mara specs are strong, carnage have more burst and anni ofc have better aoe damage.

Pve and only checking current last Nim bosses and current gear.

Council, Fury works fine depending what you are doing but reaches phase might be better with with other classes also anni will do better parse in burn.

Brontes, Fury will do better in Burn imo.

TfB, Fury will do better imo..

Kephess, its a bit irrelevant but from challenges imo fury will do better imo.

Styrak, Fury its better.

For the new Operation for obvious reasons Anni seems better in every boss tbh.

With that said, all 3 specs work for every boss and they do just fine..like if you want to play only 1 spec you can make it work for every boss in Nim without much effort.

Note, Fury doesnt do so well when you dont have armor debuff class in your group...lets say you have to choose from having armor debuff or playing fury..in that case its better to play carnage just for that, if in that case you choose to play fury, fury will do same sustained single target damage as carnage or even less and anni will do more, so seems optimal in that case to play carnage since you will also benefit more your group members.

As for fury rotational problems, ofc theres an optimal rotation but fury doesnt really have one tbh..thats also what makes Fury a good sustained damage class in pvp. You can do your rotation optimal as you should but if it breaks you can just hit whatever and as long as the procs are there basically keeping to reduce cooldown of major abilities and make sure you use raging burst before furious and built stacks a same rate class does always the same sustained damage or very close to optimal sustained damage. Its basically what the experts say......a brainded class.

As for fluff or aoe bosses anni will do better..but heh in current Nim operation every other melle dot spec potentially can do more than anni in that case.

Also just for parsing warriors, carnage before the rework BW made to the spec did basicaly the same damage in dummys that fury does now...tho Carnage for many reasons that i will not explain was an OP spec, current Fury as many said before, its not an OP spec for pve, but its good overall.

But eh current Pve balance is pretty much irrelevant imo, maybe will be relevant when the Gods MM will be live, after that from the current knowlodge i have, and its not much tbh, seems clear which classes and specs will be more Optimal.

Maybe that would be a good Thread to make, ask people that are good players and that are playing on PTS. Instead of this idiotic and recurrent threads.