With the recent changes and the 2.7 changes, more specs have deterministic rotations. That is to say, you could write down the one perfect dummy rotation once and for all and be done with it, with no surprises. What do people think of this trend?

A cynic would say that the combat team/guy has trouble dealing with balancing non-deterministic rotations and is taking the easy way out.

One caveat: All of these have, to differing degrees, one source of randomness: When the parse ends depends how lucky you were with crits (and procs that don't change what you do). So the final energy burn or what to use for the last few quick hits or when not to reapply a final dot or whatever is not deterministic for any of these. But this is pretty paltry.

Second caveat: Raid dps (as opposed to dummy dps) has many external random factors that change what you do.

Deterministic specs (pub side names):

1. Sharpshooter gunslinger. This spec has no random energy regen, and no other source of randomness in what you'll do. You can make a spreadsheet to figure out what your energy is at all times and write down an exact dummy parse. The only source of randomness (before the final energy burn) is your personal lag/delay, which gives you a bit more energy than a spreadsheet would say you have.

2. Dotsmash sentinel and Focus sentinel and guardian. This doesn't even have the "personal lag gives you more energy" randomness.

3. Scrapper scoundrel. With the recent change, I'm pretty sure this became deterministic (I don't play it) due to 100% flying fists. Same caveat as for sharpshooter with the lag/delay giving you a bit more energy.

Next with 2.7 both sage specs will become nearly deterministic. Telekinetics won't quite be deterministic because of tremors, which gives stacking buffs when you get mental/telekinetic momentum procs. I don't really play TK much, but my impression with tremors is that after the opener it's at full stacks all the time essentially, which means it would basically be deterministic once you're in the middle of the parse. Balance will still have rippling force (chance to regen force on tk throw) for randomness, but this is less significant than dirty fighting's random energy regen, say, because force is linear.

Vigilance is still not deterministic because of Keening (proc to reset dispatch / make usable at any health), but it is much more so. This was accompanied by a significant buff (i.e. the deterministic master strikes are better than the random procs for them were, on average, apparently), which is entirely separate.

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Is this good, as it improves quality of life for dps and changing raid conditions have more than enough randomness in them already?

Is it bad, because it makes dps too predictable?

Are gunnery and assault next?

Here's my thoughts from the 2.7 Sentinel Changes thread:

I agree that *some* RNG can make a spec more dynamic and keep the rotation/priority system more interesting; however, I don't think it should influence the backbone of the rotation.

 

Take Watchman for instance - I think this is RNG in a spec done "right". Regardless of RNG, the basic rotation remains:

 

Merciless Slash - GCD2 - GCD3 - GCD4 - Merciless Slash - GCD2 - GCD3 - GCD4

 

If you get a Mind Seer proc, Cauterize generally goes in GCD2; if not, you have to use an extra filler, but the basic pattern remains the same. Getting lucky w/ this proc is definitely a nice boost to your dps, but getting unlucky doesn't completely screw you over. The other RNG in the spec, proccing Focus from burns and critical hits, generally balances out over the course of a fight simply because of how many RNG rolls you get.

 

The RNG in Gunnery Commandos, and pre-2.6 Vigilance Guardians, however, is "bad" RNG. Here, getting unlucky completely screws with your rotation, and in both specs also leads to severe resource management issues, since their key abilities (Full Auto and Master Strike, respectively) are easier on their resources than their filler abilities. So when they get unlucky, they're hit with a double whammy - not only are they missing out on their hardest hitting abilities, their dps suffers even more because they have to use more basic attacks to avoid running out of resources.

 

 

Now, the biggest complaint I've seen about the post-2.6 Vigilance rotation is that it's too static, and I can see where people are coming from. While it might be nice if there was a *little* RNG left in the spec to make it more dynamic, I think having *no* RNG is preferable to the *bad* RNG that plagued the spec before.

Basically, I think having some RNG in a spec makes it more interesting, because it gives you something you have to react to. But the RNG needs to be confined to things that are a decent boost if you get lucky, but don't ruin your dps if you get a string of bad luck. I'd rather have no RNG like Sharpshooter than be stuck with the horrible RNG of Gunnery or Pre-2.6 Vigilance.

Here's my thoughts from the 2.7 Sentinel Changes thread:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Basically, I think having some RNG in a spec makes it more interesting, because it gives you something you have to react to. But the RNG needs to be confined to things that are a decent boost if you get lucky, but don't ruin your dps if you get a string of bad luck. I'd rather have no RNG like Sharpshooter than be stuck with the horrible RNG of Gunnery or Pre-2.6 Vigilance.

Thanks for the comment. It's a good point that some random procs don't work nicely at all, but you could also argue that that makes the spec more interesting. You're in gunnery, fishing for a barrage proc, and your energy is getting higher & higher as you don't get one (to be fair, I've only played gunnery in the mid 40's, not at 55, and don't really know what I'm talking about), and you need to decide when to call it quits, which maybe also depends on whether hib or demo is coming off cooldown.

I agree that it feels like it sucks, but the real problem is it hinders sustained dps. You could buff the dps some other way but keep the randomness.

There are still many specs with randomness, but I just fear they'll all go away in coming rebalancing. I don't mind deterministic specs. In fact, if they're complicated but deterministic (and nonlinear energy helps that), they can be fun and interesting. Also, in a fight, tracking how many stacks you have in say vigilance and the new telekinetics is another thing to think about, which can be interesting. I just don't want all random procs that affect what you do after them to be gone.

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A less cynical explanation for the changes: Buffing dps of these specs while keeping their randomness would give ridiculous burst sometimes, which would hurt pvp. That is, maybe if you buff their dps they would necessarily be like the pre-1.2 assault vanguard, where you could hib spam if you got the procs (there was no lockout).

Maybe that confines the largest randomness to the sustained, non-bursty specs. But still, you should be able to have some sort of randomness in most classes.

What I was getting at, is that I think the RNG needs to be confined to "filler" abilities, rather than the backbone of a spec's rotation. In Gunnery and Pre-2.6 Vigilance, they are defined by their use of Full Auto and Master Strike, respectively, and getting lucky or unlucky on the procs for these abilities has a *massive* influence on their dps. If instead, the RNG is confined to something like resetting the CD on one of your filler abilities, it still gives you something to react to, and maximizing dps still requires you to make proper use of this proc (so the skill ceiling isn't reduced), but getting unlucky won't screw over your dps as badly.

For instance, in Gunnery, I'd like to see the Curtain of Fire (resets CD of Full Auto) proc turned into something like the new Vigilance system, where you build stacks, and reaching a certain number of stacks resets the CD. Then, to keep some RNG in the spec, I'd like to see another CD reset introduced, on something like Demo Round. Demo Round hits hard, but is still ultimately a filler ability in terms of sustained dps, so using it more often would be a decent dps boost, but if you get unlucky, it won't completely cripple your dps.

I think the "filler" litmus test is good, but not perfect.

For example, the upcoming changes to Sage/Sorc DPS remove the RNG on the fast Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning proc. This is a fantastic change, IMO, since it basically corrects for the fact that critical chance is nearly non-existent relative to when the spec was designed. However, Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning is a straight filler, since it merely replaces Disturbance/Lightning Strike for higher immediate damage (though slightly lower indirect damage due to the longer average cooldown on Mental Alacrity/Polarity Shift).

Sages/Sorcs also have a counter-example to this: the upcoming changes also remove the RNG on the Telekinetic Wave/Chain Lightning insta-cast proc. I think this is a very bad change, because it makes the entire rotation incredibly rigid outside of Mental Alacrity/Polarity Shift (which will still drift around) and removes all "twitch reaction" from the spec. Here again, Telekinetic Wave/Chain Lightning is straight filler and not necessarily fundamental to the spec's major functionality, though it is a significant source of damage. However, unlike Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning, the proc on Telekinetic Wave/Chain Lightning has never been unreliable nor can I remember many parses where I felt particularly "unlucky". This is especially true with the changes in 2.0, which made Turbulence/Thundering Blast capable of the proc at the same rate as Disturbance/Lightning Strike, which essentially removed every complaint that I ever had about the spec's fluidity and the reliability of the proc.

I will basically echo that some RNG is good, but too much is bad. The Sage/Sorc changes coming in 2.7 exemplify both cases, where bad RNG (TkT/FL) is being removed, but good RNG (TKW/CL) is also going away. Combat Sentinels/Carnage Marauders also provide a good example of good RNG, where you have to watch your procs very carefully and the entire spec rotates around remembering and predicting the internal cooldowns and using the appropriate abilities at the appropriate times. Gunnery Commandos/Arsenal Mercs exemplify bad RNG, since their ammo/heat completely tanks when they fail to get Curtain of Fire/Barrage, which exaggerates even further the loss of DPS from Full Auto/Unload. Pre-2.6 Vig/Veng was exactly the same way.

It's a fine line to walk. I don't want every spec to be as boring as Sharpshooter/Marksmanship, but I also don't like that there are still specs which can see ~30% variance in DPS just on the basis of a series of coin flips.

I will basically echo that some RNG is good, but too much is bad. The Sage/Sorc changes coming in 2.7 exemplify both cases, where bad RNG (TkT/FL) is being removed, but good RNG (TKW/CL) is also going away.

Telekinetics dps has few moving parts, but still feels fun (caveat: my experience is just casual dps / hitting the dummy with my healing sage). I agree that the TKW proc is a big part of that, and that it feels like it happens plenty often. The psychic projection proc does come around less often, and you may be right that the new version will be nicer, but it seems to me you could just decrease the lockout time (or up the proc chance somehow independent of crit) if the problem is that it's too rare.

I do agree with you that carnage has a good sort of RNG, and I think watchman does too, both in the focus generation and in the cauterize reset. But for classes where the RNG isn't working as nicely and smoothly as sentinel, just because there's a bad RNG proc doesn't mean the solution is to take away the RNG.

(Since I keep saying I don't really play specs, let me say where I'm coming from: I've played a sentinel (combat/watchman/focus), gunslinger (sharpshooter/hybrid), and sage (healing) in progression, and mess around with various other classes/specs.)

In Gunnery and Pre-2.6 Vigilance, they are defined by their use of Full Auto For instance, in Gunnery, I'd like to see the Curtain of Fire (resets CD of Full Auto) proc turned into something like the new Vigilance system, where you build stacks, and reaching a certain number of stacks resets the CD. Then, to keep some RNG in the spec, I'd like to see another CD reset introduced, on something like Demo Round. Demo Round hits hard, but is still ultimately a filler ability in terms of sustained dps, so using it more often would be a decent dps boost, but if you get unlucky, it won't completely cripple your dps.

I mixed up the arsenal merc and gunnery commando terms apparently. As I said, I haven't played this at max level, but my guess is that it, like TK sage, has few moving parts but the interest is in the proc. A proc reset on demo round only sounds really boring. I have a suggestion for fixing curtain of fire / barrage, and similar issues:

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Suggestion instead of giving everything stacks, with reset on a key ability at some stack size:

Make it like crafting augmented gear. Have there be a chance at a proc each time you use the ability, but also put a stacking buff where you are guaranteed a proc when you get full stacks (let's say the stacks clear when you get the proc randomly as well).

This keeps the randomness and reaction interest, but makes it so you know it can only get so bad. Good for morale and a dps boost.

The Curtain of Fire proc in gunnery needs to be fixed, most probably to the current vigilance system, or else pretty much the entire tree needs to be addressed and given much MUCH better ammo management. I don't even care if it's boring. As it stands right now, with Full Auto being literally the only energy neutral ability that isn't hammer shot, not getting that proc is absolutely crippling, both to DPS on its own but more importantly crippling to ammo management, and that spec alone makes me absolutely hate RNG and procs.

TK is a somewhat different story. The TK Wave proc is actually pretty consistent, pops up all the time, makes the rotation fun, and I agree that wish they kept it the way it is. The TK Throw proc is the annoying one (especially when you want to get both procs so you can FP > TKT > TKW), and that's a great change they're making on that, though really they could have simply tied it to disturbance and turbulence just like the TK Wave proc. But even then, the big proc that helps with damage is reasonably consistent, and neither proc is crucial for force management.

So, at the end of the day, I think a little RNG in there to keep things interesting is good, but having a spec DEPEND on a proc which has a low enough chance of occuring that you will pretty much always have long periods of time where you aren't going to get it, especially when that proc is also crucial for energy management (like both the Full Auto proc AND the Master Strike proc before 2.6, and yes Sucker Punch as well pre 2.6) that is a very very bad thing. I'd like to have my spec both have an interesting proc and also not be hampered by having that proc be make or break for my damage and energy mangement. If I can't have both though, I'll choose the deterministic rotation everytime.

How's this for you KBN? Any proc should do nothing but add to your potential, and never be so important that getting it or not getting it is literally the difference between good and bad performance. Shadows are an excellent example. The Shadow Strike and Project procs in the tanking tree keep things interesting, and reward you for properly balancing them, however not getting them won't cripple you as a tank. If we depended on getting the project reset in order to maintain full uptime on stacks that'd be a pretty bad problem.

So do I wish BW would find a way to fix certain RNG issues without pretty much getting rid of all the interesting RNG? Yes I do, the game would be more fun for it. But if they insist on taking the lazy way out then they need to please fix Gunnery as soon as possible.

How's this for you KBN? Any proc should do nothing but add to your potential, and never be so important that getting it or not getting it is literally the difference between good and bad performance. Shadows are an excellent example. The Shadow Strike and Project procs in the tanking tree keep things interesting, and reward you for properly balancing them, however not getting them won't cripple you as a tank. If we depended on getting the project reset in order to maintain full uptime on stacks that'd be a pretty bad problem.

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I think this is a very important piece. Putting in the efforts to manage your procs properly should make it easier and more efficient, but not necessarily better performing than someone who doesn't.

On another tangent, why hasn't BW went with completely deterministic rotations for everyone, if this is the direction they are headed? I feel like madness sorcs and sins, deception sins, pyro mercs, etc could use the reduced RNG as much as anyone else could.

I think this is a very important piece. Putting in the efforts to manage your procs properly should make it easier and more efficient, but not necessarily better performing than someone who doesn't.

 

On another tangent, why hasn't BW went with completely deterministic rotations for everyone, if this is the direction they are headed? I feel like madness sorcs and sins, deception sins, pyro mercs, etc could use the reduced RNG as much as anyone else could.

Madness sorcs are getting the RNG reductions (at least the FL procs for Lightning Strike/Crushing Darkness). Like you I wonder why they haven't made similar changes for all the RNG dependent specs, though strictly speaking it will probably be a nerf for Pyro Merc.