.

Voice chat does not input into the game. It is a separate program, it doesn't do anything to the game. It runs outside the game and never touches the game.

 

Sorry i'm so stubborn.

 

Example, Mumble adds graphic overlays right on the SWTOR UI. That gives me even more advantage. I can see which teammates are using voice and who is speaking.

Sorry i'm so stubborn.

 

Example, Mumble adds graphic overlays right on the SWTOR UI. That gives me even more advantage. I can see which teammates are using voice and who is speaking.

 

Does it modify the client in any way?

 

If so, then there's an issue.

 

If not, it's still not in BW's realm of control.

 

It's like someone commiting a crime in mexico, a New York police officer doesn't have the authority to legally do anything about it even if he knew it happened.

So I'm going to be sending video evidence of a player using this to Bioware via ticket, is there another way for us to report this or is it strictly in game? There used to be a CS email but I don't see it anymore.

Sorry i'm so stubborn.

 

Example, Mumble adds graphic overlays right on the SWTOR UI. That gives me even more advantage. I can see which teammates are using voice and who is speaking.

 

if you install the overlay in ts3 you get pretty dire warning, so i suppose this could very well be illegal

 

http://imgur.com/OBd16Mc

How rebinding the mouse wheel? I have heard complaints of people using a mouse binding such as this. In WoW, such a thing was not considered an exploit because of the 1-to-1 mapping and immediate response (no sequences or waits), however it does provide a sizable advantage to the player using this binding.

 

Use case 1

• Click event bindings
  
  • Mouse wheel up - Right click
    
  • Mouse wheel down - Right click
    

  [*] User positions mouse cursor over the Huttball spawn

  [*] User rapidly scrolls the mouse wheel up or down to send right click events at an incredibly quick speed

  [*] There is no waiting or sequence pressing involved, there is a 1-to-1 mapping of mouse events to output events

[ ] Allowed by ToS

[ ] Prohibited by ToS

[ ] Example not clear enough to give a ruling

Edited June 22, 2013 by Jenzali

A Macro gives a player an advantage over other players.

 

Voice chat gives a player an advantage over other players.

 

Macros compensate for a lack of skill. Voice chat enhances teamwork. One facilitates communication, while the other makes up for a lack of speed/reflex/skill. Voice chat is good. Macros are pathetic. L2P.

Lot's of grey in all of this and I find Bioware are causing more issues with the not very well though out reply's. Will SWTOR be the first MMO to ban Voice chat and MMO gaming Mice and Keyboards? I feel if you keep pushing this on the community it will only drive more away. The TOS is set up to stop AFK macro's not to ban any convenience the advance devices might bring like 1 button /yell Incoming Grass chat text. If you want to force this then you need to force all tools like Vent or any chat service. It's not somthing I find I have needed in the past but with the lag that is now forced on me after closing the Aussie servers I am looking for faster ways to get out of the lag.. And with pings of 250+ I have to press all my keys 2 to 3 times just to get one action at the right time giving me an unfair disadvantage.. you might want to bring all the US players up to that type of ping if you keep on thinking the way you are

you might want to bring all the US players up to that type of ping if you keep on thinking the way you are

 

My Primordial Assault Cannon will keep that from happening... *barrel starts spinning*

Macros compensate for a lack of skill. Voice chat enhances teamwork. One facilitates communication, while the other makes up for a lack of speed/reflex/skill. Voice chat is good. Macros are pathetic. L2P.

 

What about text macros like "inc snow"? How does using a macro to do this compensate for lack of skill? Why do you consider voice chat OK, but text macros pathetic? Why should voice chat be allowed, but text macros considered a violation of the TOS?

+

 

Agree. Voice chat should be banned. It is unfair to those that don't have it.

 

Are you trying to ruin this game? If they ban voice chat then they should pretty much just delete all the operations from the game.

 

PVP is a SMALL part of this game and the idea that guilds should not be able to speak to each other during an operation or flashpoint is utterly INSANE. If that happens endgame PVE is done for!

 

Unfair to those that dont have it? What are you even talking about? Its ridiculously cheap to buy a mic and use something like Mumble.

 

Just because Bioware is failing with their TOS in regards to macros doesnt mean we need to turn around and ruin the game even more! So all macros are banned when only certain ones should be so that means we have to do something else that is insane and ban voice chat? Please explain your logic in calling for further messing up the game.

Edited June 22, 2013 by AlexThomasG
Adding more to post

What about text macros like "inc snow"? How does using a macro to do this compensate for lack of skill? Why do you consider voice chat OK, but text macros pathetic? Why should voice chat be allowed, but text macros considered a violation of the TOS?

 

You are using a fallacy to try to prove a bs point. Just because Bioware is being ridiculous and not allowing a macro for "inc snow" does not mean we have to turn around and further ruin the game by banning something so simple as voice chat.

 

Have you even done a nightmare mode operation? Do you have any idea what not having voice chat would do to PVE and guilds in this game? I mean seriously?

A Macro gives a player an advantage over other players.

 

Voice chat gives a player an advantage over other players.

 

FAIL. Using macros that allow one button to be pushed to cast multiple abilities is 100% different then using a voice chat during a fight. If you have the computer know how to play this game then you are EASILY able to download a voice chat service and use it.

 

You are basically saying that SWTOR should be the first mmo to ban voice chatting which would in turn make the harder operations ridiculous and cause so much facepalming during PVE that it would ruin the game. How more people aren't calling out this nonsense is beyond me!

What about text macros like "inc snow"? How does using a macro to do this compensate for lack of skill? Why do you consider voice chat OK, but text macros pathetic? Why should voice chat be allowed, but text macros considered a violation of the TOS?

 

I don't see a problem with text macros, but in case you haven't noticed I don't type in yellow text. Take your directions from those guys

 

But to answer your question, no, I don't have a problem with text macros (mainly because most people dont read chat in pvp anyways even to look for incs) and it's rather unrelated to skill. huttball-grabbing, using multiple abilities, etc with macros is what I meant when I said lack of skill.

The problem with a TOS that is solely based on *technical* criteria is that it can be nickeled-and-dimed/loopholed by finding some small wording/interpretation that allows certain behavior. RL legal systems are the same way, and you can see the same friction in the US between camps who differ in how the constitution should be interpreted.

 

Personally, I would probably say the TOS intent is to disallow using a system where your input device gives you a material advantage over those without such devices. Thus spamming "1,2,3" on a single keypress to implement a simple priority rotation theoretically gives someone such an advantage. But even with a loose definition such as this, I won't claim it's easy to come up with rulings on what is/isn't allowed.

 

By the same token, the issue around a macro for chat vs. VoIP is indeed salient if the question is one of "input fairness". True, the VoIP app is not part of the game, but as someone points out, it provides for a greater level of advantage than *any* chat macro. From a viewpoint of fairness, even allowing chat macros really doesn't even come close to leveling the playing field. While I've never been a big fan of VoIP, I think the only real solution to this for MMOs is that the game should provide a VoIP system itself that any group of people could use.

How rebinding the mouse wheel? I have heard complaints of people using a mouse binding such as this. In WoW, such a thing was not considered an exploit because of the 1-to-1 mapping and immediate response (no sequences or waits), however it does provide a sizable advantage to the player using this binding.

 

Use case 1

 

It would be good to continue the sequence numbers in the use cases so each is unique (i.e. not have two different "use case 1" in the thread).

 

I think we are on #5 now so I renumbered the case below below.

Use case 5

• Click event bindings
  
  • Mouse wheel up - Right click
    
  • Mouse wheel down - Right click
    

  [*] User positions mouse cursor over the Huttball spawn

  [*] User rapidly scrolls the mouse wheel up or down to send right click events at an incredibly quick speed

  [*] There is no waiting or sequence pressing involved, there is a 1-to-1 mapping of mouse events to output events

[ ] Allowed by ToS

[ ] Prohibited by ToS

[ ] Example not clear enough to give a ruling

 

My bet: given that you can do the above solely with the SWTOR client bindings I would guess that it is "working as intended" and not an exploit.

 

---

 

Too bad the guy who said "duh, it is obvious BW means keypress 1 sending keycodes for 1, 2, 3 is prohibited" didn't take me up on my 1m credit bet (too late now that BW has ruled -- can't place a bet after the terms of the contract are settled) he would have won (and I would have paid).

 

---

 

I find it quite baffling that BW does not simply say "no macros what so ever allowed" since, as far as I can tell no real macros are allowed.

 

Here is a definition of macros

1) In Microsoft Word and other programs, a macro is a saved sequence of command s or keyboard strokes that can be stored and then recalled with a single command or keyboard stroke.

The above is also the definition in the very old and venerable emacs text editor, and every other computer program I've seen user interface macros mentioned.

 

SWTOR allowed macros (so far, just use case 4) are not really macros but keybindings that change dynamically (i.e. cycle through a list in Phillip's example). The key characteristics of "user interface macros" every where else is a single command/keystroke expands to multiple commands or UI events.

 

It is as if BW said "motorized vehicles can be used on this race track" and then when I bring a sprint car they clarify the definition of "motorized vehicles" to be exactly "motorized unicycles with engines no larger than 100cc and no smaller than 50cc that use ethanol alcohol as fuel". Technically speaking the first statement is correct but rather misleading.

 

While I do not agree that the currently communicated rules are sensible, I am happy to have a better understanding of them. I can't comply with rules I can't understand

So a number of people have asked about text macros. A couple of others (even on reddit!) have mentioned 'colour detection to determine which action to take' systems. I even saw a questions about sequence clicking... I even saw claims that we can't detect anything and won't do a thing about this issue.

 

I'll address all four...

 

Text Macros

Strictly speaking, text macro's are against the ToS. If its for emotes etc and isn't being used as a way to advise others of an impending attack in a Warzone (inc snow! for example), then we will turn a blind eye to an extent. If you fire off emotes too many times in quick succession of course then you will get evaluated for if you are spamming.

 

One click 'enter chat, type 'inc snow!', hit enter' text macros designed to warn others is completely against the ToS. You need to make a decision - do I take the time to type 'inc snow' to the ops group, or do I just keep fighting this person... Think of it as an evaluation on if you are using a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over somebody not using that same tool.

 

Colour detection and evaluated action macros

The very act of determining a colour of a pixel on screen and as a result then using a specific action is one of the easy to understand examples of what we call automation. As soon as you have two things happening based on one key press, then its against the ToS.

 

Sequence clicking

If you have a system set up so that if you hit the same key 4 times likes so: '1, 1, 1, 1' and instead of just firing off whatever 1 is bound to it fires off '1, 2, 3, 4', then as long as you keep it to 'one key == one other key hit' its in that grey area of not true automation. There is a caveat - you can't have the macro determine a minimum time between clicks to work around the global cool down timing and only fire the next button in sequence if the GCD has expired.

 

If you instead have a system that when you hit 1, it fires of 1, 2, 3, 4 in quick succession or all at once (i.e. one click == many actions) in order to try and fire something that isn't currently in a cool down state then yes, that is against the ToS. Again, one click must always equal one action and only one action within the game.

 

Detection of abuse

There are many claims based on guesswork that we can't tell when a person is running automation for systems like field respeccing within seconds. Every time you interact with the server we log either the specific event or an aggregate of similar events firing multiple times. We can (and do!) look through those logs using analytic engines. If you want to know more about the concept, look up 'big data' in google - we strive to make all decisions on making changes to the game based on the data we have, and we have a lot of data.

 

We also use that data for game forensics - we may not react in a real-time manner for most things, but as people foolish enough to speedhack know, we can and do act based on irrefutable data.

 

Now, all that said, what are we going to be doing going forwards now that this issue is very much in the limelight?

 

Expect changes to the ability to field respec in Warzones. We were already working on this as part of some upcoming PvP updates (Bruce detailed some of that this week I believe), and we may bring the field respec changes forward - or we may just keep them where they are so to not impact the game update schedules and instead update our existing Warzone game forensic reporting to include inhumanly fast field respec events. Either way my advise if you are currently macroing within Warzones is to stop.

 

Could we please get a definitive answer on the branded SWTOR Razer gear, obviously some of what you are saying is against the TOS is capable with branded SWTOR merchandise, what do players who shelled out a few hundred pounds on your merchandise do if using said merchandise can get yourself banned ?

Expect changes to the ability to field respec in Warzones. We were already working on this as part of some upcoming PvP updates (Bruce detailed some of that this week I believe), and we may bring the field respec changes forward - or we may just keep them where they are so to not impact the game update schedules and instead update our existing Warzone game forensic reporting to include inhumanly fast field respec events. Either way my advise if you are currently macroing within Warzones is to stop.

 

I really like the idea of removing field respec from warzones; but what I think needs to be done is making it so you can only respec in the beginning of the warzone before the gates open. That way, for example in a normal pug warzone, one team isn't stuck with 5-6 healers (which has happened to me before).

I really like the idea of removing field respec from warzones; but what I think needs to be done is making it so you can only respec in the beginning of the warzone before the gates open. That way, for example in a normal pug warzone, one team isn't stuck with 5-6 healers (which has happened to me before).

 

or if you just joined - shouldn't be stuck with a random team comp if your team is being destroyed

Could we please get a definitive answer on the branded SWTOR Razer gear, obviously some of what you are saying is against the TOS is capable with branded SWTOR merchandise, what do players who shelled out a few hundred pounds on your merchandise do if using said merchandise can get yourself banned ?

 

tos doesn't change w/ the keyboard/mouse you use - this was probably more of an oversight

 

having said that, they did say using macro's for emotes/non-competitive quality of life enhancements is where they will be less stringent - thus you could still use the products to their fullest ability, just not necessarily in combat scenarios

Are you trying to ruin this game? If they ban voice chat then they should pretty much just delete all the operations from the game.

 

PVP is a SMALL part of this game and the idea that guilds should not be able to speak to each other during an operation or flashpoint is utterly INSANE. If that happens endgame PVE is done for!

 

Unfair to those that dont have it? What are you even talking about? Its ridiculously cheap to buy a mic and use something like Mumble.

 

Just because Bioware is failing with their TOS in regards to macros doesnt mean we need to turn around and ruin the game even more! So all macros are banned when only certain ones should be so that means we have to do something else that is insane and ban voice chat? Please explain your logic in calling for further messing up the game.

 

I am fine with the use of Voice Chat and Macros. It is EA that is being inconsistent. If the real reason macros are banned , is the advantage they provide. Then voice chat should be banned for the same reason. What they should do is allow both. But they won't. They don't do sensible.

Could we please get a definitive answer on the branded SWTOR Razer gear, obviously some of what you are saying is against the TOS is capable with branded SWTOR merchandise, what do players who shelled out a few hundred pounds on your merchandise do if using said merchandise can get yourself banned ?

 

I own a Logitech G13 gamepad and a G700 mouse, both of which support macros. However, I have rarely ever used that capability in any game, even single player. The point of these in my mind is the ability to map lots of keystrokes to buttons/keys that are more easily touch-typed, and not macro'ing. So even though I did not buy "SWTOR branded" equipment, I have similar devices and am not put out at all by any ban on macros.

I am fine with the use of Voice Chat and Macros. It is EA that is being inconsistent. If the real reason macros are banned , is the advantage they provide. Then voice chat should be banned for the same reason. What they should do is allow both. But they won't. They don't do sensible.

 

I think, as explained before, you're mistaking the two kinds of programs and what BW has the authority over.

 

Again, Macros input information into the game client. If something inputs into or changes the client an any way, it's in BW's power to decided what's a legal use of that program.

 

Voice is independent of the game. It doesn't modify the client nor does it input into the game. Even if it gives you a huge advantage, it's -not- in BW's sphere of influence.

 

Bioware controls X territory. Macro's are items inside X territory, while voice programs are in Y territory. It's got nothing to do with fairness.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

I am fine with the use of Voice Chat and Macros. It is EA that is being inconsistent. If the real reason macros are banned , is the advantage they provide. Then voice chat should be banned for the same reason. What they should do is allow both. But they won't. They don't do sensible.

 

strong agreement. Don't forget to hit me with the ban hammer because I play with my wife in the same room (2 computer lan party) so we can use "voice over air" with even lower latency that mumble!

 

Also, people with good computers have a PvP advantage over those with crappy computers so all frame rate performance should be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator or else it is unfair to those who have not purchased baller computers. And monitors.

Im lovin this..especially this...

 

"We also use that data for game forensics - we may not react in a real-time manner for most things, but as people foolish enough to speedhack know, we can and do act based on irrefutable data."

 

..wait what?.....Bioware knows players are hacking..but but but the anonymous poster on the forums has assured me in many many threads he has never seen hacking and therefore it has never ever occurred in this game.

Bioware has no authority to tell someone they can't use a voice program because it's not in their realm of control. That's all.

 

They can tell you that you can not use a voice program or any other behavior you may choose while in game(there are some exceptions but no room here).This is the same as a private group can telling you what you are allowed to say and if you may carry a gun while on their private property. Now if they can enforce it or not , or if the backlash and financial impact is completely ruinous is another question.