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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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One could think it was Lucas Arts that said no to it, but then I'd have to wonder why they just didn't say, no there isnt, and right now it's not a priority.

 

LucasArts is not as discriminatory as many like to think. This is covered in Natashina's FAQ.

 

And if you are going to attack people for thinking that Bioware's actions over this subject is discriminatory, then I would suggest you realise that many of us - myself included - do so in reference to the decisions that were made not to develop this content at the same time and rate as opposite-sex content (i.e. when it would have been cheaper, given that they were recording and animating the opposite-sex content).

 

 

Ever think that could of just been the writers and not BW as a whole? They write the story, bosses read it, think it's good to go and pass it, without ever thinking "OMG! There's no SGR! What are you a writer or an insensitive discriminatory hack!"

 

Unfortunately the writers are not allowed to talk about anything interesting, so we can't know what the initial process was, but as this is a Bioware derivative, one would have expected the management to realise the expectations that were had for the story.

 

This game is a demonstration of aggressive hetero-centrism and pan/bi/homosexual erasure - that sort of thing would have been noticed during development, someone just decided that offering content to the LGBT community or persons who would enjoy same-sex content, wasn't important.

 

And Mattel? Really? Yes, I do, actually. Also, there's a gender-neutral Easy Bake Oven being released. It's black and silver.

Edited by Tatile
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I basically take BW's word on it being about profits, it's the one thing I can always believe a company on, they're out to make money.

 

The word they never gave? ... Yep, clearly we're the ones putting words in their mouth.

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The FAQ link is under the title, "Heart of a Jedi" down in my signature, just to let you guys know.

 

And yeaaah...to say that LucasArts is discriminatory is very erroneous. If you don't feel like reading the FAQ, take a few minutes and Google George Lucas same sex marriage. It's very enlightening, and goes largest against the massive pre-conceptions of LucasArts being narrow minded.

 

Oh, and then there is again the matter of the gay Mandalorian couple from the books. I hope people realize that not much got by Lucas and he did have to approve all the novels. So that isn't exactly hidden. From the FAQ:

 

 

11) Is SGR even canonically in Star Wars?

 

 

 

Yes! There are plenty of examples of SGRs in the Star Wars IP. In the games, it began with original Knights of the Old Republic in 2003, with the companion Juhani, who would only romance female Revans. There was also a same gender romance in the books as well, with Goran Beviin, who's husband was Medrit Vasur. Goran was first featured in the e-book Boba Fett: A Practical Man. The two of them were later fully realized in the book Sacrifice, both of which were by created by author Karen Traviss. They are officially recognized as canon by Lucasarts.

 

 

The games do count as a form of EU cannon that had to be approved by Lucas. I don't think Disney will change that either. Again, take a few minutes to Google Disney's stance on the LGBT community and you'd be very surprised. Hell, I was surprised when I found out how inclusive they are.

 

So yeah, Disney isn't going to yank those due to any stance against the LGBT community. Disney is very pro LGBT rights. This includes for their employees as well as their parks and cruises.

 

Seriously? They never gave us their word? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Um, there is a ton of information that very clearly states otherwise. The press also wouldn't have given two flying flips if BioWare hadn't said anything in the first place. I've got video footage if you care to see it.

 

We know that every employee that spoke about it publicly and directly has left/been let go of BW-Austin. That's why we're pushing so hard for an answer.

Edited by natashina
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I basically take BW's word on it being about profits, it's the one thing I can always believe a company on, they're out to make money.

 

Well, first, they never even mentioned that it wasn't included b/c of "profit".

 

If they did, link it.

 

Second, even if motives are for "profit" actions can still be discriminatory. It's not always intentional. Or, do you think companies are free from any kind of moral scrutiny as long as they are doing it for profit?

Edited by stuffystuffs
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Yeah, over a year ago. By someone that left the company back in May.

 

We just want an update. Why is that so bad?

 

Oh and I was the one that provided those links. Any sort of question you can think of regarding the history of SGRs, it's in the FAQ. I'm happy to copy and paste any answer I have available.

Edited by natashina
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o.O Or you can progress their stories without it having to be SGR. SGR isn't an option yet, soooo, why did you plan on it to begin with?

 

I mean, the choice is yours of course. Cancel your account. But this is really, all on you, not on BW or EA.

 

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

 

But..yes it is on BW and EA. Based on their history with same gender relationships in game content, many of us who have been long time fans of BW and loyal customers anticipated SGR content. What we did not anticipate was it turning into a public relations three-ring circus.

 

Happy Holidays.

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Interresting, there's a link inthe General Discussion thread, where they said they didnt include it initially due to money reasons.

 

The old Stephen Reid quote, from September 2011? That simply says they ran out of time, and it would be coming 'soon'.

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The old Stephen Reid quote, from September 2011? That simply says they ran out of time, and it would be coming 'soon'.

 

I double checked and you're 100% correct.

 

However, Daniel Erickson did say as such.

 

 

 

8) Why wasn't SGR in at launch?

 

 

Take it away again Mr Erickson!

 

When we do this, we wanna do it right, we wanna do it with the characters that make sense, that we always knew that we wanted to do it for those, so you guys know and we've talked about it before, it ended up being a budget and scheduling issue. There are romance arcs that we wanted to do that didn't make it in the game, we knew which characters (I'm not gonna tell you)... [some audience joking about characters] So the short answer is, it's never changed, it's still coming, it's coming when full story comes, and when is full story coming? This year. So we are still on track.

 

Here's a link to the Daniel Erickson quote from the Guild Summit. I'll post the

.

 

To be blunt, we just want an update. Is it still about money? Again, why is it so wrong that we want an update, just like everyone else would with their preferred feature?

 

Oh and by the way, that information is now over 9 months old. It is also the last time they directly addressed the players about SGRs. We're more than due.

Edited by natashina
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I had not realised that World of Warcraft, Runescape, EvE, Guild Wars 2, Tera, Everquest, The Secret World and Star Trek Online (to name a few) had scripted and animated romances that players could partake in, like Star Wars: The Old Republic. Could you post examples?

 

Having been playing A LOT of the Secret World lately, a former long term player of WoW, EQ(1+2), STO, RIFT, Horizons, CoH/V, and a short term player of EvE and Pirates of the Burning Sea, I feel I can answer this question accurately.

 

The Secret World -

 

within the first five minutes of play as a member of the Dragon, there's the possibility of a "fade-to-black"-ish same gender sex scene, depending on the gender of your character (It's F/F). Note, this scene isn't actually about sex or romance, it acts as a catalyst for an out of body experience that forms the tutorial for the game - Templars and Illuminati get a similar experience, just not triggered by pleasure as it is for Dragons.

 

Later on, there's a female NPC who will flirt with you regardless of your gender. (And that's just in the Solomon Islands, I haven't got past there yet.)

 

But note, the Secret World is NOT comparable to SWTOR, and these are scripted scenes that happen regardless of what YOU think your character would do in those situations. Your character is mute, and gets no choices with regards to conversations etc.

 

 

Pirates of the Burning Sea -

 

has a mission where you get to rescue your true love, and you can choose which gender your true love is - which means you can have both f/f and m/m romances in the game, since there is actually a full storyline attached to the true love. The game is not fully voiced, and is not without it's problems - but it's still going, I think it's now f2p.

 

 

WoW, EQ(1+2), STO, RIFT, Horizons, CoH/V, and EvE - have/had no player romances to speak of. Most of them are/were not even fully voiced, and in all of them your character is mostly mute (with the exception of voiced emotes, which not all of them have/had). Many of them have no representation of LGBT people at all, and for those that do, representations are few and far between, often having to be read between the lines to be seen, and sometimes even being slightly homophobic in portrayal.

 

I have Guild Wars 2, but unfortunately my computer is in the shop getting fixed. Yay life.

 

Honestly, what we have in SWTOR is quite unique. Many new MMOs are following the fully voiced route (GW2 is, I believe, from what little I was able to play before my computer would freeze, shut off, or reset*), but none of them seem comparable to SWTOR in what they've done. Sadly, I think this aspect of the game (fully voiced mission briefings and story in which your character can interact and make decisions that have tangible effects), is probably what will ultimately kill it. :(

 

(* This was happening in SWTOR as well - so it's not a problem with GW2.)

Edited by Zandilar
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In response to "SGRs aren't in any of the top 10 MMOs, and therefore wouldn't be profitable" argument, my answer is this:

 

If SWTOR is indeed dying (which I doubt), it could use an influx of subscribers. How do you get people to buy your product? You provide something no one else has. And what does no one else have? SGRs.

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I think right now, TOR needs to focus on getting/keeping more players with actual game content.

 

I'm not sure if anyone has replied to this yet as I haven't gotten to the end of the thread yet, but I wanted to take the time to say this:

 

Many people, myself included, do consider SGRAs as "Actual Game Content" and are eagerly awaiting something, anything, by way of a response from EA as to whether when/if they are going to be included in the game.

 

Just because YOU don't consider them content, does NOT mean that they aren't.

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I'm not sure if anyone has replied to this yet as I haven't gotten to the end of the thread yet, but I wanted to take the time to say this:

 

Many people, myself included, do consider SGRAs as "Actual Game Content" and are eagerly awaiting something, anything, by way of a response from EA as to whether when/if they are going to be included in the game.

 

Just because YOU don't consider them content, does NOT mean that they aren't.

 

I said game content. I didnt call it non-content. Play. Instances, FPs, new quests.

 

Let me ask. You get the SGR, you going to keep rerolling to do those over and over and over again? People will do that for clicking 1-0 though. I don't suspect many would do it to marry Mako over and over again. I don't suspect people would do it again and again if it was my suggestion of a Cartel Market companion.

 

I'm not even against SGR (which it seems a few think I am with their replies). I'd go that route on a few characters as well (well my BH at least). I just don't thinkit's the profitable route to go.

 

And I'm not even against BW giving a word to the players. I do however think it might be dumb on their part to do so. If it's still planned but on the back burner, it's complaints. If it's not planned and canceled, it's complaints.

 

Not giving any word is complaints, but then it's just a complaint about no communication. Reading this thread you can already see if it's any of the first two answer I mentioned will have some yelling discrimination (okay...typing in all caps? Maybe yelling on youtube? Twittering furiously?)

 

So, out of those three complaints, I'd say suffer with the lack of communication ont he subject, and do it when they're ready with a "SURPRISE! HERE YOU ARE!"

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So, out of those three complaints, I'd say suffer with the lack of communication ont he subject, and do it when they're ready with a "SURPRISE! HERE YOU ARE!"

 

So are you basically saying 'shut up and deal with it' or are you saying 'stay silent and ambush them when they bring the content out'?

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I consider it viable content. Even being Straight, the opportunity to involve a Female character in a Same Gender romance would actually be fun for me and it would be interesting to see how BioWare has that play out with the story. sure people will go Male/Male as well, but that's their choice and it's no business of anyone elses to say whether it's right, wrong, or whatever. It is something that people can enjoy and I can say that a fair number of people have been waiting on this content since before SWTOR was even released.

 

I don't feel SWTOR is dying. The fact it's even survived for a year is a good sign. Other MMO's didn't do so well. Aion? Rift? Games that started out with big sales, and then dropped hard because their content wasn't as good as the hype. That is partially because everyone was fighting to be the next "World of Warcraft". I don't feel SWTOR tried to do that, because it's a Sci-Fi/Fantasy universe and not pure fantasy. Because it is the world of Star Wars, for people who have been fans of it since the 70's and beyond.

 

If we look back, the game is already a success. Half a million copies sold at launch. That alone made it a success. Everything after that was gravy. Yes, there have been issues. Every game has issues and bugs and problems. Too many people expected it to have Everything that WoW had, but right at the start. That simply wasn't going to happen. WoW had been updating and upgrading and adding new Expansions and content for 7yrs before SWTOR hit the shelves. Expecting it to be on the same development level at the start is pure folly. The only way SWTOR could develop more was for people to actually play it first.

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Let me ask. You get the SGR, you going to keep rerolling to do those over and over and over again? People will do that for clicking 1-0 though. I don't suspect many would do it to marry Mako over and over again. I don't suspect people would do it again and again if it was my suggestion of a Cartel Market companion.

Me, personally? I won't need to keep rerolling. I only have 3 characters that are out of the Starter Planets, and only 2 of them are Max level, a male Sith Warrior that went OGR with Vette and female BH that skipped doing Romances due to not having SGRs. (Yes, Torian got my Mako :( ), The one that's not max, a Sith Inquis, I wanted to re-roll anyways since I am unhappy with how I had been playing him so far.

However, the lack of SGRs have prevented me from playing ANY of the light-side content, and also from re-rolling the before-mentioned Inquis.

So, Yes, the lack of SGRs is preventing me from experiencing much of the "content" this game has to offer, and thereby, adding them in is just like adding "New" content to me.

As an aside, I am a continuous subscriber, and I have been since Early Access. I stopped playing the game when Secret World came out and I haven't returned to playing full-time due to the fact that SGRs are not implemented yet. I've continued to subscribe the entire time that I haven't been playing because I believed in Bioware and I believed in SWTOR and I wanted to help them succeed.

However, my sub is due to renew in Feb, and I'm not sure I'm going to let it if something isn't communicated soon.

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So are you basically saying 'shut up and deal with it' or are you saying 'stay silent and ambush them when they bring the content out'?

 

I'm saying the best thing the devs could of done was say "May or may not come in at a later date, we promise nothing."

 

Instead they went the route of thinking "We'll be huge! Updates all the time!"

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Well, they didn't do that. They did promise updates, so we're holding them to that.

 

You say that then say it's on the players, not BW-Austin for lack of communication.

 

You've also said that your opinion is that BW shouldn't say anything, due to this whole thing being a catch .22

 

However, you've also said that you'd like us to get an answer and that you are in support of this content.

 

I've been watching your posts over the last day and you keep finding new arguments that keep getting debunked. So I'm at a loss as to your logic. It's really all over the place and contradictory at best.

 

In short, I give you a 8/10, because you added something to the conversation. Yet, I know a troll versus a detractor when I read one.

 

 

From Urban Dictionary:

 

Concern Troll:

 

 

In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally.

Edited by natashina
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Final thought on this manner:

 

Detractors may disagree with this content, but they are consistent in their arguments. They don't also claim to be any sort of ally, but they usually remain respectful. For the most part, I don't mind having a chat with them. :)

 

When there is continuous signs of vast inconsistencies of a person's stance, that is a form of trolling. When a person keeps trying to find ways to demean a subject despite facts otherwise, I call them out on it.

 

Ask anyone here. I'm usually very careful not to call "troll" just because someone disagrees with me. I did call someone a troll recently, but that was more for just coming in and posting two words without contributing a dang thing. I reported their post.

 

I don't report every troll post I see either. That what ignore lists are for. However, anyone that is being blatantly insulting, crass or just vile gets reported by me every time. Thankfully, that hasn't happened in this thread recently very much, and I haven't reported much more than that one post here for a couple of weeks. One particular poster got reported left and right, but they were one of the truly nasty trolls that love to be as outrageously insulting as they could.

 

Trolls do nothing to contribute to the main topic of the thread. I'm going to emphasize again that this is for clarity on the content that was promised and an update on their current status. Not the, "Give tired excuses as to why BioWare should exclude and shouldn't even speak up about this content," thread.

 

 

 

There, I'm done with that. Back on topic!

 

So, BioWare, any chance you want to end this whole debacle and just talk to the players? It's more obvious by the day that you need to. I don't care if you are scared or not. I don't care if SGRs cause more controversy or not. A simple, "it's on hold for the foreseeable future" or "it's still coming, but no ETA," would more than suffice. It needs to come from Jeff Hickman or Courtney Woods directly, in a public view.

 

I still will never understand why asking for an update is so taboo. On content that was promised.

 

Yeesh. :rolleyes:

Edited by natashina
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I just got the companion "Malavai Quinn" on my male Warrior, but there were no romance options. The same thing happened when I got "Vector Hyllus" for my Agent... so then I come to these forums and do some research, and find that same-gender romance isn't even in the game.

 

I played for a short while back at launch and remember reading in an interview that it would be added "soon". I thought it was a bit odd that it wasn't in the game from the start (after all, changing the romance options in-game only involves changing a few pronouns here and there). So anyway, I took a break from the game (no, not because it didn't have same-gender romance, but because I was busy with school and stuff at the time), and I come back and subscribe again over a year later and this promise still isn't fulfilled?

 

So at this point I'm a bit irritated as I come back a year later and a promise that was made to me, a customer, has not been fulfilled? I don't know what kind of business model that is. Next time perhaps BioWare should not promise things that they aren't certain they can fulfill, especially since people do pay them money based on those promises.

 

Now for those of you who say "Yeah, but we want other, better things like new planets and such." Well guess what? You want a new planet, I want same gender romance. We both pay $15 a month, so our wants as customers are equal, not better or worse.

 

Anyways, rant over. I was just really irritated after coming back and expecting to see some progress made on this.

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The Reid quote from a while back, about how the reason they arent in the game is because they needed more time to 'really do it right' was just absurd. Not sure if I read that guy isn't around anymore or not, certainly wouldn't be surprised if he isn't (hard to keep up with everything going on these days), but all the talk about needing 'more time' to do the 'writing' and the 'cutscenes' etc is flat out untrue. The romances are in the game. Our ability to play them is not. We dont need, or want, special new writing or cutscenes to explain why XYZ character likes us, we just want to enjoy the same romances everybody else can, the exact same way that they do, we want our characters to be treated the exact same way everybody else's are. There's nothing remotely complicated about that.

 

It cost them more time and money to keep the SGRs out of the game in the first place, the reason folks like Skyrim and Fallout NV and DD and DA2, etc. let you romance anyone you want is because its EASIER to do it that way. There are so many ways that this topic gets taken in bizarre and complex directions, but there's nothing remotely complicated about it. That Reid fellow's quote read as if he wanted us to believe the romances needed a complete rewrite in order to let us play them, complete with whole new cutscenes, etc. Either he's unfathomably ignorant, or he thinks (or hopes) that we are, but neither of those are the case. We never asked for anything other than the ability to romance the same characters everybody else can, the same way they do. That doesn't involve rewriting anything (except possibly a pronoun here or there, that may or may not be necessary, I wouldn't know for obvious reasons), it just involves getting rid of the gender check that prevents us from romancing whoever we want. Its something they could include with any patch anytime they release a new patch. People who try to make it sound more complicated than that are generally folks just looking for excuses not to have any SGRs at all, or at the very least as few as possible. Its not complicated, its never going to be complicated, and anyone who tries to fool you into thinking it is has an agenda, its really just as simple as that.

 

I don't want to just focus on the negative, so I'd like to add a positive idea that I had recently. We know they're going to add new characters at some point, and I have a suggestion for one for the Sith Inquisitor. To avoid spoilers, lets just say, there's a female character in that storyline that gets trapped in the body of a monster, it would be pretty cool if you could do a quest that lets her find a new body, and then you could romance her. Having the option to choose between romancing her or Ashara would be mighty awesome, they're quite the contrast, and both are well developed and interesting characters. Things like that would add tremendously both to the storyline itself, as well as replay value. Hopefully they'll take that into consideration once they finally get around to continuing our Class Storylines, that'd be awesome.

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Stephen Reid, along with Daniel Erickson, both left the company in May. They had both said that they "wanted to this right," and they weren't "willing to just swap pronouns in the dialogue" for SGRs.

 

Stephen Reid was the Senior Online Community Manager. Daniel Erickson was the former Lead Writer for ToR as well as the writer for my beloved IA storyline.

 

I love your idea, by the way! I know what part you are referring to and that would be pretty great.

 

Night guys; got a cold and need to crash early.

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If BW gives you an answer will threads like this finally go away or will this just continue until if they say yes? What happens if they say no, will people get outraged and attack BW for it or will they just deal with what BW says and move on. Personally I just wish they would say yes or no so threads about this will stop popping up and it can be done with.
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