Playing a Tank spec in every mmorpg out there, I figured as much Warriors would be the MAIN TANK...

But, what happends? Well, our "Stance" to give threat seems broken, I can charge in, smash and hit everybody 3-5 times before a bounty hunter does his AoE, or get healed...and I lose all aggro.

Now , you are all probably saying "You don't know how to play Tank then"

I have been a Tank on EVERY game way way back starting in EQ days, to present...that is all I do, that is all I like to do.

This reminds me of WoW tanking as a Warrior, it was very good in the beginning then it got slaughtered by Druids, and DK tanks, even pally was better in the end..

But Juggernaut isn't good at all..

I am a level 35 Juggernaut, and it is a pain in the *** to keep aggro..

Talked with a BH Tank, and to tell the truth, that BH Tank and even a Assassin Tank, is 90% better than a Juggernaut..

What is going on? Did I make a mistake purchasing this game? Why is Warrior such a dieing character? We can DPS and not Tank, in full defense spec..

Talked with a level 50 Juggernaut (Tank) and he said the same thing, plays tank in all games, Juggernaut tank is horrible, so he switched to pure DPS Juggernaut cause his guildmate a "BH Tank" and a lower level even, can tank better.

What is your input on a Juggernaut Tank? What kind of update do we need to be able to be Viable? I am very dissapointed..

aggro management and specially lack of real AOE threat builders is sure an issue with the Jugg atm. BioWare seems to have made a terrible, terrible job in this regard.

its still functional, but you will have to put 5 times the effort for half the pay than a BH or sin tank. I think thats the biggest offender here, that the other 2 tanks are REMARKABLY EASIER to play and yet yield equal or even better results.

as the word spreads, expect people to start rejecting Jugg tanks from groups if they can get a BH/sin...

personally I coudnt care less. I play mainly for PvP and Juggs are beasts there, with a bit of support Im nigh-invulnerable and still I can deal some punishment

I'll be posting a lot more info in the future. I'm a big theroycrafting person. Just haven't got around to do much. Also I have to look in to BH and Assassin Tanks to have a better idea on how they are. So most of this is coming from reading forums/guides and personal experience (level 30 Jugg)

AoE Threat - This seems to be the main issue with juggs. I've seen some videos of level 50 juggs tanking in Operations fine and some of the higher end Flashpoints, though that's all organized play. Your typical PUG group isn't going to be as organized and this is where the issue comes in mainly. Doing mainly 4man Group quests BHs are annoying as hell to hold threat on 4+ mobs at a time. They pull aggro like nothing and then I spend the majority of the time trying to gain aggro back while keeping taunt of CD. This could be solved simply by giving the Jugg tanks a few seconds to grab threat (solved it the majority of the time). It just seems out Snap threat is horrible when it comes to AoE, but then gaining threat back seems to never happen.

Single Target - I've never had any issues for single target currently. Any boss I have aggro 100% of the time unless there is a threat drop type of mechanic in the fight.

Survivability - We have some of the bests CDs (Invincible is amazing). Anyways Juggs reminds me sort of like DK tanks in WoW in terms of CD management. They rely on proper CD management. As for survivability without CDs I guess I haven't done much to really notice a issue with any healer keeping me alive.

Though like many have said before, Juggernauts do have to put in more effort than the other two tanks to be on par.

Some tweaks I do feel are needed, but I don't think the class really needs to be "dumbed down" They just has less room for error and it will show later on between the Great and decent juggernaut tanks.

Anyways I don't feel Juggernauts are worthless as tanks (They are viable as a MT at end-game) Just a lot of people may have to really figure out how to optimize them correctly and personally I'm up for the challenge.

Listen up, there are to ways and its not dark vs light.

The ways are : skill and chalange + fun, or WoW. In wow, except very few encounters , all tank-classes are able to tank, all tank-classes have same "sith" in diferent names, all tank-classes boring. Trust me.

I was there when Warriors where only tanks, and Paladins wanted to take they share, not only as AOE tanks. SO they got tanking skills. Then Bear-Druid came in, and shouted we want AOE tanking, and they got swipe adjustments and so on and so on. You dont want to go that way.

Jug is fine, it takes skills, its not easy and like above me mentioned : pug's need to adapt also. Right now everybody starts with biggest skill they got.. that will change.

Ps. That reminds me when I explained to my mate why its not a good idea to pull with Aimed shot or similiar skill in World of Worstcraft.

I can relate to this.... I've got my little 13 Juggy started, and we tried to do "saving face" the other day- so I get on the main boss, but the other players kept pulling him.. (I think he jumps around from player to player anyway) with aggro- so we ended up with a wipe, and the other players complained that "they aren't tanks"... I told them I was doing the best I could...

so far it has been frustrating....

I can relate to this.... I've got my little 13 Juggy started, and we tried to do "saving face" the other day- so I get on the main boss, but the other players kept pulling him.. (I think he jumps around from player to player anyway) with aggro- so we ended up with a wipe, and the other players complained that "they aren't tanks"... I told them I was doing the best I could...

 

so far it has been frustrating....

Well, to be fair, none of the tank classes start to shine until 14 and 16. At 14 we get our "tank mode", the threat stance. Then at 16 we actually get a taunt power.

Pre-16, Jug tanking seems more like just leveraging our heavy armor and more trying to be a damage sponge for as long as possibly until we lose threat, and trying to maintain threat via DPS as much as possible. For me, I'd usually just pick the single toughest mob, leap in first, and just try to spam as many attacks as possible to maintain threat just on that one target while my team handled the surrounding mobs.

Im a Level 30 Jugger now.

I have no issue holding aggro on multi mobs.

Tell your party to stop being stupid and spamming Aoe skills after you use Smash once...

Mark Targets to tell them what to kill first.

Last night i was doing 5 gold pulls with a 3 person group.

2x CC'd, i tanked 3 with zero issues.

This isnt wow, you cant just spam aoe damage right after the tank charges in...

I didnt even have AoE taunt Trained yet either....

Assuming that the Jedi Guardian and Sith Juggernaut aren't too far apart, I have to wonder why I see this constantly. I play with my brother and we have pugged the 3 instances on Republic side that are there from lvls 10-21 and nearly every heroic. Once he hit 14 and got his tanking stance his ability to hold aggro improved drastically, after lvl 18 or so my Sentinel nor Commando can take/keep aggro from him unless I open up with all of my biggest skills. Even then, 4-5 hits and he usually has aggro back.

I would assume that those having major issues with the Jugg/Guard tanks rests in two things...

1. Having not figured out the correct patterns to use to keep the aggro when teammates are going full tilt. Such isn't easy, even my brother occasionally will lose aggro if I, or another dps, use our entire arsenal all at once. Dealing out 3000+ damage at 21 within 10-15 seconds tends to do that. He never loses aggro to healers, though...

2. Your teammates, especially true of a pug, have no idea of how to use their skills to work with a guardian/juggernaut tank. This was an issue that existed in LoTRO with the Warden tanks pre-Rise of Isengard. While the circumstances are somewhat different, the result of them not being instant aggro machines is the same.

If the dps inside of pugs would just give a few seconds before opening up with that huge combo (which for my commando eats his entire ammo supply) it'd not be so much of an issue I think. In group play if it's a champion or multiple elites, using that combo is a bad idea anyway. Putting out consistent DPS while not making your tanks life hard is something a lot people fail to comprehend.

--

Some buffs to their aggro control would be nice. But, they do have several good AoE attacks down the road, it's just more limited than the other 2 classes. Also, Shadow/Assassin tanks seem to begin losing out later on. Even if they can keep the aggro, their lack of armor tends to take its toll on higher damage bosses. BH/Trooper shouldn't have that issue.

And anyway, just my 2 cents.

Juggernauts don't get their AOE taunt until around level 20, I think it is level 16 for their single target taunt. Sweeping Slash (a cone AOE damage ability) doesn't come till later.

So the real problem is that Juggernauts don't have many AOE abilities. All in all they only get Smash and Sweeping Slash.

So while an Assassin and Powertech tank has numerous AOE abilities - and get them early - (that when in their tanking forms generate extra all around threat) we only have 2 abilities, and one of them comes in the level 30s or so.

Powertechs also have the advantage of being able to pull mobs to them (why no force pull!??).

Personally I think Juggernauts ought to have a force pull and Force Scream should be a cone AOE like Sweeping Slash.

Like other people have said, Juggs can Main Tank, it's just harder.

Tanking as Jugg is more difficult at lower levels, thats just reality. But it can be done, just takes a little skill, tab targeting, marking, cc, etc. Alot of people want an easy tank job, and jugg is simply not it.

However, if you read anything from the experienced beta testers, Jugg doesnt come into its own til the 40's, at which point your threat, mitigation, etc. becomes much much better.

To all the comments about AOE: IMO, jugg is a Warrior style tank, which typically involves greater single target threat rather AOE.

EDIT: Its also very funny to me how, when most people have problems with a class, that the problem isnt the player, its the class. Maybe youre just doin it wrong.

Tanking as Jugg is more difficult at lower levels, thats just reality. But it can be done, just takes a little skill, tab targeting, marking, cc, etc. Alot of people want an easy tank job, and jugg is simply not it.

 

However, if you read anything from the experienced beta testers, Jugg doesnt come into its own til the 40's, at which point your threat, mitigation, etc. becomes much much better.

 

To all the comments about AOE: IMO, jugg is a Warrior style tank, which typically involves greater single target threat rather AOE.

 

EDIT: Its also very funny to me how, when most people have problems with a class, that the problem isnt the player, its the class. Maybe youre just doin it wrong.

But if you can just level a Powertech and be much more flexible, never losing aggro for NO effort thats wrong. I tried both, Powertech is much stronger right now, all those AOE-Damage/Aggro skills. On the other hand i like my Juggernaut. I have no poblem at all that he is harder to play, you just should get a benefit for having to play better. Right now you can play 3 times better than a Powertech and still doing much worse.

Cant talk about high lvl tanking, but in every game the group should adjust to what they got.

I remember days at wow, when you had to let the warrior build aggro for 10 seconds, there is no problem with that. It is actually more my style of tanking than the "pointless" rush in and never work for aggro style that wow has today.

The DPS should not fire a shot until you as a tank command them, its a bit sad that this kind of "game" has changed so much because of wow and the easy job tanking there.

The thing is just about the resources, warriors need to build rage in order to get aggro from their rage consuming abilities. Sins ans BHs have a resource that is already "full" and can use almost all their abilities from the start and thus create fast aggro.

DPS seems to do the same thing, if the fight starts they blow all their big resource consuming abilities to do as much dmg in the start to end the fight as fast as possible. But this isnt how non warrior resources are designed, the more resources you have the faster it regenerates and thus have a more steady stream of dmg. As the game gets older people will learn how to dmg and not go at it wow style and thus making it easier to keep aggro.

Im a lvl 24 jugg now and have done quite some flashpoints already and i only noticed that i had real troubles with aggro is when there is some dps that thinks he needs to use alle his resources in 2 seconds after the pull. Keeping aggro from healers isnt really a problem, just guard them and your fine.

I don’t know about you guys, but I’m HUGELY excited about how the Juggernaut is currently playing. Yes, threat appears a bit low (I’m an MMO tanking veteran and have problems) but that’s a good thing because it enforces a certain amount of learning onto group mates. Those arguing that an Inquisitor or Bounty Hunter has no such issues are forgetting two things:

1) The rate at which classes pick up skills is dissimilar.

2) The Juggernaut appears to be the most durable of the tanking classes.

Without wishing to comment too strenuously, the Juggernaut appears to be exactly what the name suggests; a mitigation powerhouse. Saber Ward is a strong cooldown and Invincible is incredibly strong, but we have loads of options for mitigation that the other tanking classes don’t appear to have.

Through talents, things like Force Scream or Retaliation reduce damage intake making us an active tanking class that uses abilities based on their defensive priority. This isn’t including debuffs like Quake that also contribute to this notion.

I’m more than comfortable with a tanking paradigm where one is better for damage/threat, one is better for utility and one is better for survival. The alternative is homogenization that robs the game of fun and diverse group content.

Does anyone honestly want that?

Im a Level 30 Jugger now.

 

 

I have no issue holding aggro on multi mobs.

 

Tell your party to stop being stupid and spamming Aoe skills after you use Smash once...

 

 

Mark Targets to tell them what to kill first.

 

Last night i was doing 5 gold pulls with a 3 person group.

 

2x CC'd, i tanked 3 with zero issues.

 

 

This isnt wow, you cant just spam aoe damage right after the tank charges in...

 

 

I didnt even have AoE taunt Trained yet either....

This, the only times I lose aggro, I can clearly blame it on myself for poor execution, or a BH is spamming is AOE's right off the bat.

Tanking pre-aoe taunt requires target switching and awareness of what's going on. If you cant keep mobs on you with your aoe taunt, maybe you are doing it wrong.

Around late 20th you'll get area taunt - problem solved.

As for comparing to BH - well they are different. Jugg is more about single target threat, you have 1 area attack, which you SHOULD upgrade to +30% damage. And after initial jump and Smash you will get attention.

BTW Juggs are awesome, I can switch between dmg and tank stances (I am vengeance) and still be competent tank or competent dmg, good for PVP as well.

I'm lvl 22 and I don't get many issues if people will fire on the target I mark and not wherever they feel like. And that doesn't mean they get to use their AOE attacks either (Looking at you BH!)

It doesn't take much AOE threat to mobs off of the healer. Using smash and target-switching should be sufficient. It's when DPS generates a bucket load of AOE that we get overwhelmed.

I think folks have some bad habits to break. We just need to take charge of groups and explain what we need them to do and we will have a better time of it.

I think folks have some bad habits to break. We just need to take charge of groups and explain what we need them to do and we will have a better time of it.

Or that group can grab a Powertech or Assassin tank instead and not have to cap their DPS.

Our AoE threat problem will only get worse as the damage gap between DPS and tanks widen due to gear scaling. We can either bring this attention to the devs and nip it in the bud before it gets worse, or we can plug our ears and pretend its the DPSer's fault for DPSing.

the same is happening for Jedi Guardians they arent even viable for raids anymore because people consider them pathetic tanks

How does anyone know, less than 24 hours in to release and just barely a week in to pre-access, if any class is suited for raiding?

People are stupid.