As a sage, i hate how my lightsaber is just used as a stat stick. We are force users, right, but we´re JEDI nonetheless.

My sugestion: give us the tools to fight efectively in melee.

A little boost in health, a few talents and skills (players will have to sacrifice some healing or balance talents) should do the trick.

Or maybe lowering the base dmg on the force skills. Then players would have to choose to be a healer, or a healer, "pure force" or a melee hybrid.

The "pure force" sage would be more like a controller, and not a heavy dps like the current state. That would fix the WZ crowded with sages / sorcs problem.

The hybrid would be a controller that engages on melee, fighting with a lightsaber, but also helps the team using crowd control skills and debuffs.

The healing spec is good as it is.

These are just ideas, you guys feel free to add, improve, etc.

The main idea is to get rid of the "hey, im a jedi, i have a lightsaber but im just hold it in my hand and spam rocks at you".

As a sage, i hate how my lightsaber is just used as a stat stick. We are force users, right, but we´re JEDI nonetheless.

 

My sugestion: give us the tools to fight efectively in melee.

A little boost in health, a few talents and skills (players will have to sacrifice some healing or balance talents) should do the trick.

 

Or maybe lowering the base dmg on the force skills. Then players would have to choose to be a healer, or a healer, "pure force" or a melee hybrid.

 

The "pure force" sage would be more like a controller, and not a heavy dps like the current state. That would fix the WZ crowded with sages / sorcs problem.

 

The hybrid would be a controller that engages on melee, fighting with a lightsaber, but also helps the team using crowd control skills and debuffs.

 

The healing spec is good as it is.

 

These are just ideas, you guys feel free to add, improve, etc.

 

The main idea is to get rid of the "hey, im a jedi, i have a lightsaber but im just hold it in my hand and spam rocks at you".

You are kind of describing a shadow. I seriously doubt the devs will make melee changes to sages when that variant already exists in shadows...

Sages dont get any more saber skills after lvl 1 because they are either ranged dps or ranged healing...period. But I do completely agree that the nonstop rock throwing is ridiculous.

One suggestion I like is to replace chunk a clunker (project) with a saber throw...sure knights get it in the 30s...but the only jedi to throw a saber in the movies is Yoda, clearly a consular. And what makes more sense for a jedi to throw? Magically conjured rocks (especially cute when you in a spaceship) or that lightsaber in your hand that by the way should be able to cut through about anything...seems obvious to me.

You could also get rid of chunk a clunkers damage delay and kill two birds with one animation replacement...

Dude, what pisses me off ( and a lot of people, believe me) is that BW is trying to turn a JEDI into a MAGE.

Force users? Yes. Mages? Hell no!

All Jedi are meant to be a master of lightsaber fighting.

If it were up to me, i´d get rid of the JK and consular classes and make just one class: Jedi.

Then you train in specific skills corresponding to your desired role. Wanna heal? Tank? Crowd control? Even a mix of it? Why not? They´re letting even STORMTROOPERS use the force with that legacy crap.

Make it one class, let us wield any type of lightsabers, get the Jedi class some decent looking gear and this game is gonna be so much better.

Dude, what pisses me off ( and a lot of people, believe me) is that BW is trying to turn a JEDI into a MAGE.

 

Force users? Yes. Mages? Hell no!

 

All Jedi are meant to be a master of lightsaber fighting.

 

If it were up to me, i´d get rid of the JK and consular classes and make just one class: Jedi.

 

Then you train in specific skills corresponding to your desired role. Wanna heal? Tank? Crowd control? Even a mix of it? Why not? They´re letting even STORMTROOPERS use the force with that legacy crap.

 

Make it one class, let us wield any type of lightsabers, get the Jedi class some decent looking gear and this game is gonna be so much better.

Well, I dont know what to tell you. The classes are tied into the stories, the stories are tied into the VO, and the classes are further tied down with the poorly implemented mirror paradigm, cross faction, so we are never going to see any changes there...but you can go a LONG way to fix the mage impression by spending the time and effort they put into the sith side ani's into the consular ani's. Look at force lift, the cc. If you just lift me in the air, Im still going to shoot you @ss...it is ridiculous...now look at the Inq version...the target is trapped, spinning, in whirlwind with lightning effects flashing in it. INFINITELY COOLER and more believable as a cc. INFINITELY.

And the whole class/adv classes are like that...look at the Sins Surge, where the DBL LS is essentially turned into a massive lightning rod, versus Force Breach for shadows...there is no comparison in the coolness of those animations...I could go on and on...chunk a clunker...pebblestorm...arrrggggh.....

But to your original point, the system you are describing has been in an MMO...it was early star wars galaxies....jedi got to choose from FIVE skill trees...lightsaber, powers, enhancement, healing, and defense. You could pick and choose, mix and match. It was a great system and would have been better if it was fully developed. There were some balance issues that were never tackled...but you could be a "yoda" type, with awesome LS skills, AND serious enhancement skills, like force absorb, force speed, etc. It was wonderful. Then the darktimes came...the NGE.

This is not wonderful, or even jedi-like, but it is what we have...and hopefully BW will pull head from arse, watch a star wars movie or two, and make some changes.

...and hopefully BW will pull head from arse, watch a star wars movie or two, and make some changes.

Amem to that, brother...

I really don't get where people are coming from about our lightsabe being useless. Our free cast attack does almost exactly the same damage as anyone else's free cast attack. Sure we don't have a whole toolbox of lightsaber abilities. But if I'm at melee range as a sage healer- I've prbabably screwed up somewhere. The only lightsabe ability I think we are missing is some sort of melee range defensive skill with the lightsaber.

Maybe a 5 second "blade ward" type skill that had a long CD.

Of course It would be nice to see a saber throw attack that pierced the target and then returned to the hand. But I really don't want a melee skill when my goal is to stay out of melee range at all times.

I have to say, now that I think about it, this makes a lot more sense than what's in the game.

Really, all jedi should be melee based - let troopers and smuggles skulk at range - makes more sense for them as well.

Roll a Jedi night if you want to melee

Why would you choose a range

Class then expect/demand it to be able to melee

i would like to see the project replaced with the saber throw. There is another thread that talks about this as well. One thing it mentioned is that yoda used if not mastered and shaped the Ataru form. I am not a mage, I am a jedi that uses the force -

do not dare in class stories make me dual someone with my saber when i cannot outside the video.

Sage = mage.

/thread

Saying it makes sense isn't the same as asking for a change.

Giving a person a light saber and then telling them they shouldn't hit anything with it is like giving a young boy a drum and telling him not to hit it. You would think the temptation, even for Sages, would be overwhelming. how can you not whack a bad guy with that thing?

Sage = mage.

 

/thread

No, thank you.

Roll a Jedi night if you want to melee

Why would you choose a range

Class then expect/demand it to be able to melee

We´re not demanding anything, we´re merely stating that this whole concept of a jedi that IGNORES the weapon that is the symbol of his Order is just plain WRONG.

If i wanted to play a mage, i´d stick with fantasy games. Trying to make a JEDI to be like a mage is such a freaking disgrace.

BTW, JK has the worse animations of the whole game (well, the animations in this game are pretty much ALL bad anyway). Thats one of the reasons why i rolled a Consular. I don´t wanna hold a lightsaber like a baseball bat.

You have 3 Classes completely devoted to the saber, who are melee classes, who use the Force.

Can you really not allow that there is one class devoted to the Force more than the others? The Jedi started out learning the Force first, check the lore on it - they brought the sabers in second, well the Sith brought in the ones you are familiar with now, but nonetheless, a Jedi is predominantly a Force user, that is their wont.

You've brought this up on another thread and I've done my best to explain to you that the Sage is a ranged class who DOES have melee options but the Sage is too squishy to fight in close combat for too long. You can use Double Strike, Single Strike, you can use your saber to charge your Force powers (Force Potency) you can block blaster bolts, block other sabers, you can use your saber to be more powerful in the Force - why do you need more?

They have already had to nerf the Sage because they were too powerful - giving them more melee would mean you'd have to give them better armour, doing that would make them overly powerful - they are FINE how they are.

This is an MMO - not KOTOR or KOTOR 2.

Bioware have said since the start that this is not a sandbox game - they learned the lessons that Star Wars Galaxies made when they let things get out of control and I don't see why Bioware should make the same mistakes.

MMOs require different types for different jobs - the Sage has been designated a healer or a Ranged Force DPS, they are not tanks or off tanks, they can't be, armour is too squishy.

The reason you have 4 different classes for Jedi is really simple, so you can work as team with the other classes, each of you bolstering the weakness of the others.

You have a ton of choice of saber and Force classes, you have the Shadow which I think would really suit your needs from what you have been saying -possibly even a Guardian could fulfil your love of sabers - seriously, why don't you give them a go?

Can't you just leave those of us who want to use the Force more alone and chose your saber from all the other classes that are specifically designed to use them?

The trouble is not actually with the Sage class, IMO, it's with the Shadow/Assassin. As someone rightly pointed out, there *is* a 'force powers *and* good with light sabre' combination AC, which would be perfect to play the "archetypal Jedi Master" - i.e. the "Yoda" class.

The problem is that this class then gets saddled with the World's Silliest Lightsabre...

So you *can't* play a good, all-rounder Jedi... or Sith, for that matter. Using Jedi as the example... at either *end* of the spectrum you get a 'typical' lightsabre... but you either have to be a Tanking Thug with minimal force powers, or else a Mage (I adore Project, it's awesome and hysterical) who's barely competent with her emblematic weapon.

If you want to play something 'in the middle', something that actually plays like most people imagine a Jedi to be- i.e. either a hyper-fast, hyper-agile sabre-flashing fighter, or a paladin, mingling use of the secrets of the force with deadly accuracy with a lightsabre... then you have to go for the two 'hybrid' classes, Sentinel or Shadow. ... which means you either go for having two sabres, or else for wielding the Double Ended Stick of Impractical Awkwardness...

While both of those two states look amazing *sometimes*... the flaw in the simplified combat mechanics required for a game is that you're stuck with them *all* the time. You have to draw *both* blades to fight, regardless of situation, and, more annoyingly by far, you can't help but ignite *both* ends of your sabrestaff, despite the fact that, realistically, having the second blade extended would only be of use in a small minority of defensive situations.

So... my recommendation would be to not alter the Sage at all... but to allow the Shadow to use a "proper" sabre. Thus, those who want a melee capable consular who still actually looks like a Jedi, could have one, instead of it, and the Assassin on the Sith side, being sabotaged just to evoke the 'look' of a weapon the way it was used in *one* fight, out of the appearances of a third-rate supporting villain from one film in the saga... when said villain wasn't even *of* that class (Maul fights like and is plainly a Marauder).

Really, given the fighting style and specialisations of the classes, I'd say dual-wielding would suit shadows and assassins more *anyway*... but, sensibly, the thing to do would be to give Sentinels/Marauders and Shadows/Assassins both the *choice*- for each of those advanced classes to have weapons proficiency in dual-wielding *and* double-ended sabres, to remove the "This ability can only be used whilst..." function on the abilities, and to substitute a stat variation.

Thus, for instance, if you're a Sentinel *or* a Shadow... if you choose to wield a double-ended stick, then you can use the exact same abilities, *but* you get a defence bonus. If you dual-wield, you don't get that, but your attack speed is higher.

...

 

So... my recommendation would be to not alter the Sage at all... but to allow the Shadow to use a "proper" sabre. Thus, those who want a melee capable consular who still actually looks like a Jedi, could have one, instead of it, and the Assassin on the Sith side, being sabotaged just to evoke the 'look' of a weapon the way it was used in *one* fight, out of the appearances of a third-rate supporting villain from one film in the saga... when said villain wasn't even *of* that class (Maul fights like and is plainly a Marauder).

 

Actually I'd say maul was a Sin tank.

I agree with much of what you say, but the reality is that the devs want gear variation for loot and identification purposes. Your proposal would muddy the waters between sins and maras, and thus goof that up...so I doubt they would be inclined to do that...my suggestion, which I put in the suggestion box forum, might be a middle ground you would find palatable...and is certainly more in line with the lore...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371204

Allow Sins and Shadows to toggle APPEARANCE of one or two blades...

There has been alot of discussion about weapon restrictions.

Basically the devs want the easy class recognition and the variance in loot. The dbl blade HILT provides that for sins and shadows...but they also restrict them in appearance to a dbl blade ignited at-all-times saber. This violates canon, as just about every dbl hilt user has used it as 1 blade at times. Maul vs Qui Gon round 1, etc.

My suggestion is to follow the movies and other examples in lore (as recently as Savage Oppress in the last few clone wars episodes) and the example in this game's VERY trailer...allow players to use the dbl hilt, but at appropriate times, only have ONE of the blades ignited, if they wish.

Let the player pick as an APPEARANCE option how many blades to ignite....one blade ignited would use the single hilt animations for running around and attacks that do not require the dblhilt/blade (e.g., saber strike, thrash)....when you activate a skill that requires the dbl blade, like Maul/Shadow Strike, then the animation would takeover, ignite the second blade on the fly, and unignite the second blade after the animation was over. Could make for much flashier and more dynamic Sin and Shadow saber combat...this requires NO changes to stats, damage, or mechanics. The dblhilt would still be just as required and recognizable as today. And of course if the player wants two blades ignited all the time, that option would exist and function just as today.

We have seen Maul fight with only one blade...we saw Satele's master dynamically shift between one and two blades in the openning Return trailer - and Malgus uses his masters dbl hilt with only a single blade as well. We have seen it over and over...and it makes sense. There are just times when using the single blade is advantageous. Follow the canon. And the best part is the dbl hilt would still be required, and would still be there to aid in easy class recognition...so the balance and design goals the devs had in mind would largely be preserved...and players would get an awesome option to customize their appearance and add a little more ooomph to their combat animations.

I take your points on board, and I'd agree- if the Sassassin ( ) and Shadow could do *that*, which would make far more sense, then most of my objections to the Silly Stick would evaporate- and we'd *have* a class that was a force-user with proper lightsabre, thus answering the problem posed in this thread, without the loot problems.

On identification... personally, I think the "Let's make everyone look the same as much as possible so nobody will have a second's confusion in PvP" is a brain-suckingly annoying approach for the devs to take... but, if that's important to them, I agree, your solution would work around it without violating that better than mine would.

You are kind of describing a shadow. I seriously doubt the devs will make melee changes to sages when that variant already exists in shadows...

 

Sages dont get any more saber skills after lvl 1 because they are either ranged dps or ranged healing...period. But I do completely agree that the nonstop rock throwing is ridiculous.

 

One suggestion I like is to replace chunk a clunker (project) with a saber throw...sure knights get it in the 30s...but the only jedi to throw a saber in the movies is Yoda, clearly a consular. And what makes more sense for a jedi to throw? Magically conjured rocks (especially cute when you in a spaceship) or that lightsaber in your hand that by the way should be able to cut through about anything...seems obvious to me.

 

You could also get rid of chunk a clunkers damage delay and kill two birds with one animation replacement...

Darth Vader, Episode VI Return of the Jedi, disagrees with you. He threw his saber at Luke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRY5dl_oxvo

At 1:42 in you can see it, and considering it is original trilogy it has precedence over Yoda's saber throw.

As to the actual "problem" why not just make the Balance tree a blend of melee/force (like with shadows) but have it lean more towards force powers as a Sage. This gives the option of pure range in Seer and Telekinetics, while giving a "hybrid" playstyle with the Balance tree.

Darth Vader, Episode VI Return of the Jedi, disagrees with you. He threw his saber at Luke.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRY5dl_oxvo

 

At 1:42 in you can see it, and considering it is original trilogy it has precedence over Yoda's saber throw.

 

As to the actual "problem" why not just make the Balance tree a blend of melee/force (like with shadows) but have it lean more towards force powers as a Sage. This gives the option of pure range in Seer and Telekinetics, while giving a "hybrid" playstyle with the Balance tree.

Uh, I said the only JEDI. Vader is a sith. And of course he saber throws. That was never in dispute. Saber throw has been considered a neutral power for forever, particularly in licensed jedi games.

I take your points on board, and I'd agree- if the Sassassin ( ) and Shadow could do *that*, which would make far more sense, then most of my objections to the Silly Stick would evaporate- and we'd *have* a class that was a force-user with proper lightsabre, thus answering the problem posed in this thread, without the loot problems.

 

On identification... personally, I think the "Let's make everyone look the same as much as possible so nobody will have a second's confusion in PvP" is a brain-suckingly annoying approach for the devs to take... but, if that's important to them, I agree, your solution would work around it without violating that better than mine would.

I agree, it is ridculous to have the game with the equivalent of a neon ID tag over everyones head...but that is the way they went...

But if you like the ID use the link and cime in on the suggestion thread, if you are so moved...

On identification... personally, I think the "Let's make everyone look the same as much as possible so nobody will have a second's confusion in PvP" is a brain-suckingly annoying approach for the devs to take... but, if that's important to them, I agree, your solution would work around it without violating that better than mine would.

Dear God, I HATE that idea. I hated it in World of Warcraft, and I can't stand it here. IMHO, if you don't fight like your opponent is dangerous regardless of how he/she looks, you DESERVE to lose. I'm glad that 1.2 will allow us to look just the way we like in endgame.

/rantoff

Just to leaven my first paragraph, I LOVE this game. It's honestly the best one I've ever played, and I'm having a blast.

What you're describing is sort of what Balance Sage was until later in testing. Force Strike used to be an actual melee attack, and the balance tree was an exact duplicate for Sages and Shadows. It gave Sages some limited melee viability.

Then Bioware pooped on it.

You have 3 Classes completely devoted to the saber, who are melee classes, who use the Force.

 

Can you really not allow that there is one class devoted to the Force more than the others? The Jedi started out learning the Force first, check the lore on it - they brought the sabers in second, well the Sith brought in the ones you are familiar with now, but nonetheless, a Jedi is predominantly a Force user, that is their wont.

 

You've brought this up on another thread and I've done my best to explain to you that the Sage is a ranged class who DOES have melee options but the Sage is too squishy to fight in close combat for too long. You can use Double Strike, Single Strike, you can use your saber to charge your Force powers (Force Potency) you can block blaster bolts, block other sabers, you can use your saber to be more powerful in the Force - why do you need more?

 

They have already had to nerf the Sage because they were too powerful - giving them more melee would mean you'd have to give them better armour, doing that would make them overly powerful - they are FINE how they are.

 

This is an MMO - not KOTOR or KOTOR 2.

 

Bioware have said since the start that this is not a sandbox game - they learned the lessons that Star Wars Galaxies made when they let things get out of control and I don't see why Bioware should make the same mistakes.

 

MMOs require different types for different jobs - the Sage has been designated a healer or a Ranged Force DPS, they are not tanks or off tanks, they can't be, armour is too squishy.

 

The reason you have 4 different classes for Jedi is really simple, so you can work as team with the other classes, each of you bolstering the weakness of the others.

 

You have a ton of choice of saber and Force classes, you have the Shadow which I think would really suit your needs from what you have been saying -possibly even a Guardian could fulfil your love of sabers - seriously, why don't you give them a go?

 

Can't you just leave those of us who want to use the Force more alone and chose your saber from all the other classes that are specifically designed to use them?

We´re not trying to spoil the fun for anyone who actually like the sage class. All i´m saying is that there´s no point in giving a lightsaber to a jedi and expect him to NOT fight with it.

I don´t like JK because of their awful animations and "baseball bat lightsaber". And i don´t want the tank role in this game. Dual sabers is not my thing either, so no sentinels.

I also don´t like the idea of "rogue jedi" and i just hate double-bladed sabers. Thats why i didnt roll a shadow.

So here i was, playing a sage and having fun doing it. But having a lightsaber in my hand and being a jedi, there´s NO WAY im going to sit back and spam force attacks all day. The temptation to rush in and engage in melee is too strong and often i get bashed by my team in WZ / FP cause im doing it.

I don´t see your point about SWG and its sandbox style. It was not being a sandbox game that killed it. It was the stupid NGE, when SOE decided to dumb down things to the ground

And i don´t think that allowing the jedi class some freedom with skills / lightsaber types would be anywhere near a sandbox game. Seriously. It would only fix what i think is one of the biggest flaws in this game.