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The Nathema Story Line does not make any sense at all

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
The Nathema Story Line does not make any sense at all

Fallensouls's Avatar


Fallensouls
10.23.2018 , 04:38 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
The game never says you stopped being Sith, the game never says you stopped being Jedi. That is literally your own personal interpretation of it but it is nowhere stated as such. The sole fact you're not part of your faction does not mean you stopped being a Jedi or Sith, the sole fact Valkorion (who is an unreliable narrator) says you're no longer Jedi or Sith means nothing.

Let me point you to the strongest piece of evidence: during Guss' Alliance alert, when you meet him and are not the Smuggler, you have the option to introduce yourself to him. There are three options and the first one (as can be seen here: https://youtu.be/RvTmaJ2D1OA?t=305) you use your full title "Master ..." because in this case it's the Jedi Sentinel. When you play as a Sith Warrior you can say "I am the Lord Wrath", if you're the Inquisitor "I am Darth Nox/Occlus/Imperius", the very fact the game allows you to pick that option and introduce yourself as such clearly shows that despite being the Alliance Commander, you do not have to break ties with being a Sith or Jedi, because you clearly can introduce yourself as such.

Here is the introduction line to the Sith Warrior: https://youtu.be/PkkbV7xiLuU?t=149

Here is the introduction line to the Sith Inquisitor: https://youtu.be/TCDS2FlybGA?t=504

More importantly, look at what Guss says in both those videos, he literally says: "Si-- Si-- Sith...?" in response to Blizz introducing us as "big boss". Guss evidently acknowledges and adresses us as Sith. The exact same goes if you are a Jedi: https://youtu.be/RvTmaJ2D1OA?t=301

In that particular case Guss literally says in response to Blizz: "Your boss is a Jedi-uh, fellow Jedi".

Do I need to provide more proof or is this enough?
One last thing do you believe that Satele talking to a Sith Force Ghost is her following the jedi code? Nope Satele is a Gray jedi on Odessen. She left the order. Darth Marr you think he is following the Sith code by shareing the ways of the force with Satele? nope. Two examples of the people who teach you not following their respective factions code.

And you think you don't violate your factions code by learning the force from two individuals who are outside of the Code your character follows?

Discussion over we are talking about Nathema now.
Lead, Follow, or Get Out of my way, before you die.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
10.23.2018 , 05:00 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallensouls View Post
One last thing do you believe that Satele talking to a Sith Force Ghost is her following the jedi code? Nope Satele is a Gray jedi on Odessen. She left the order. Darth Marr you think he is following the Sith code by shareing the ways of the force with Satele? nope. Two examples of the people who teach you not following their respective factions code.

And you think you don't violate your factions code by learning the force from two individuals who are outside of the Code your character follows? Thats a slam dunk, game over
That's absolutely not a "slam dunk, game over". Yesterday you accused me I didn't want to listen to others and didn't accept their views, to reiterate, these are your exact words:

Quote: Originally Posted by Fallensouls View Post
Besides it did Ceryxd no good? you still dont get it and you wont get it. You make your mind up and you dont change it.
That is the pot calling the kettle black, because despite having given you numerous pieces of solid and strong evidence, you still dismiss everything. You have made up your mind as well and you don't change it either. And no, you aren't right, if that's what you want to counter this with. You believe you are right, but that sole fact doesn't objectively make you right.

Also, your argument is terribly flawed, because the Jedi knew of the Sith Code and the Sith knew of the Jedi Code. We see numerous examples of that both ingame and in other Star Wars stories. Darth Bane for example knew the Jedi Code and what the Jedi believed, which means at some point he learned it. By your logic, simply because Bane learned of the Jedi Code, he becomes a Jedi. Because that's what you're saying, because we learn from Satele and Marr we become a Gray Jedi. But have you ever heard of the phrase "know thy enemy"?

The Jedi learn of the Sith Code to know their enemy. The sole fact they learn the Sith Code doesn't make them Sith themselves. The Sith learn of the Jedi Code to know their enemy. The sole fact they learn the Jedi Code doesn't make them Jedi themselves.

In KotFE and KotET we learn of the teachings of the Knights of Zakuul, by extension learning about Arcann's view on the Force. In the same line of "know thy enemy", the fact that we learn of the teachings Arcann follows doesn't make us a follower of those teachings.

Sidenote, Arcann was aligned with the Dark Side of the Force in case you didn't notice the glowing yellow eyes and the entire arc where Senya heals him from his anger and rage (hey, that's the Dark Side!) in chapter 1 of KotET. On top of that, it was never stated the Knights of Zakuul used or followed a gray side of the Force, here let me show you. I quote directly from Wookieepedia:

"The Knights of Zakuul served to protect the Emperor of the Eternal Empire and enforce justice throughout the Empire. Unlike the Jedi or Sith, the Knights of Zakuul neither rejected nor rigidly adhered to either the light side or the dark side of the Force, emphasising the importance of a Knight exploring their personal connection to the Force. Eschewing the strict codes of the Jedi and Sith, no area of the Force was deemed too weak for a Knight to pursue further knowledge in, and no areas of the force were off-limits for Knights to study in the pursuit of power. However, whilst the pursuit of umlimited power drew natural comparisons between the Knights of Zakuul and the Sith, Knights were encouraged share their findings with the rest of the order, rather than hoarding information for themselves."

A Knight of Zakuul was free to pursue the Dark Side of the Force if he so wanted. Simultaneously, a Knight of Zakuul was free to follow the Light Side of the Force if he deemed their strengths lay there. They simply weren't restricted by any code in their study of the Force, being able to develop their connection to it in their own personal way. They still follow either the Light Side of the Force or the Dark Side of the Force, as long as they serve Zakuul's Royal family, no one is going to hunt them down for their connection to the Force within the Knights of Zakuul.

So, if we learn of Zakuul's teachings of the Force, that means we learn that we too can develop our connection to the Force in a personal manner. If we choose to follow the Dark Side, we still can. If we choose to follow the Light Side, we still can. Because as you can see in the quoted piece, that's literally the teachings Arcann followed and the teachings we learn of to know our enemy. Whether we accept them or not as our characters is up to us, but the game gives us the option to accept those teachings as our own or reject them, as I have clearly pointed out in my previous posts with evidence taken directly from the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fallensouls View Post
Discussion over we are talking about Nathema now.
You edited your post while I was responding to the unedited one, so I couldn't have known about this addition while I was writing my reply. You edit your posts a lot, I have noticed, so don't blame people for not including your entire texts in their quotes or having different texts than you wrote because if you edit them while they are responding, then there's little they can do about that.
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Fallensouls
10.23.2018 , 05:28 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
That's absolutely not a "slam dunk, game over". Yesterday you accused me I didn't want to listen to others and didn't accept their views, to reiterate, these are your exact words:



That is the pot calling the kettle black, because despite having given you numerous pieces of solid and strong evidence, you still dismiss everything. You have made up your mind as well and you don't change it either. And no, you aren't right, if that's what you want to counter this with. You believe you are right, but that sole fact doesn't objectively make you right.

Also, your argument is terribly flawed, because the Jedi knew of the Sith Code and the Sith knew of the Jedi Code. We see numerous examples of that both ingame and in other Star Wars stories. Darth Bane for example knew the Jedi Code and what the Jedi believed, which means at some point he learned it. By your logic, simply because Bane learned of the Jedi Code, he becomes a Jedi. Because that's what you're saying, because we learn from Satele and Marr we become a Gray Jedi. But have you ever heard of the phrase "know thy enemy"?

The Jedi learn of the Sith Code to know their enemy. The sole fact they learn the Sith Code doesn't make them Sith themselves. The Sith learn of the Jedi Code to know their enemy. The sole fact they learn the Jedi Code doesn't make them Jedi themselves.

In KotFE and KotET we learn of the teachings of the Knights of Zakuul, by extension learning about Arcann's view on the Force. In the same line of "know thy enemy", the fact that we learn of the teachings Arcann follows doesn't make us a follower of those teachings.

Sidenote, Arcann was aligned with the Dark Side of the Force in case you didn't notice the glowing yellow eyes and the entire arc where Senya heals him from his anger and rage (hey, that's the Dark Side!) in chapter 1 of KotET. On top of that, it was never stated the Knights of Zakuul used or followed a gray side of the Force, here let me show you. I quote directly from Wookieepedia:

"The Knights of Zakuul served to protect the Emperor of the Eternal Empire and enforce justice throughout the Empire. Unlike the Jedi or Sith, the Knights of Zakuul neither rejected nor rigidly adhered to either the light side or the dark side of the Force, emphasising the importance of a Knight exploring their personal connection to the Force. Eschewing the strict codes of the Jedi and Sith, no area of the Force was deemed too weak for a Knight to pursue further knowledge in, and no areas of the force were off-limits for Knights to study in the pursuit of power. However, whilst the pursuit of umlimited power drew natural comparisons between the Knights of Zakuul and the Sith, Knights were encouraged share their findings with the rest of the order, rather than hoarding information for themselves."

A Knight of Zakuul was free to pursue the Dark Side of the Force if he so wanted. Simultaneously, a Knight of Zakuul was free to follow the Light Side of the Force if he deemed their strengths lay there. They simply weren't restricted by any code in their study of the Force, being able to develop their connection to it in their own personal way. They still follow either the Light Side of the Force or the Dark Side of the Force, as long as they serve Zakuul's Royal family, no one is going to hunt them down for their connection to the Force within the Knights of Zakuul.

So, if we learn of Zakuul's teachings of the Force, that means we learn that we too can develop our connection to the Force in a personal manner. If we choose to follow the Dark Side, we still can. If we choose to follow the Light Side, we still can. Because as you can see in the quoted piece, that's literally the teachings Arcann followed and the teachings we learn of to know our enemy. Whether we accept them or not as our characters is up to us, but the game gives us the option to accept those teachings as our own or reject them, as I have clearly pointed out in my previous posts with evidence taken directly from the game.



You edited your post while I was responding to the unedited one, so I couldn't have known about this addition while I was writing my reply. You edit your posts a lot, I have noticed, so don't blame people for not including your entire texts in their quotes or having different texts than you wrote because if you edit them while they are responding, then there's little they can do about that.
Lets agree to disagree I am tired of you derailing my thread.You added phrases I did not say to that, and I do not wish to discuss anything further with you. I have over 35 years of knowledge of Star Wars lore, through comics, Novels , and games. You got maybe 3. Sorry but I know the lore and given you evidence and logical discussion, at this point you are just being a troll. And I am beginning to think you are doing this on purpose to mess my thread up. I do not wish to discuss this any further about this subject in my NATHEMA thread.
Lead, Follow, or Get Out of my way, before you die.

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Ylliarus
10.23.2018 , 05:41 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallensouls View Post
Lets agree to disagree I am tired of you derailing my thread.You added phrases I did not say to that, and I do not wish to discuss anything further with you. I have over 35 years of knowledge of Star Wars lore, through comics, Novels , and games. You got maybe 3. Sorry but I know the lore and given you evidence and logical discussion, at this point you are just being a troll. And I am beginning to think you are doing this on purpose to mess my thread up. I do not wish to discuss this any further in my NATHEMA thread.
Okay, you're going too far now. You falsely accuse me of adding lines to the quoted bits of your posts, when you yourself are constantly going back and editing your original posts, adding and changing stuff after I have replied. That is not okay. I could understand simple disagreement and spirited debate, but this goes too far. If you think the forum moderators cannot see edited messages and what was changed with each edit then you are sorely mistaken.

Because I can take disagreement, I can take spirited debates, but I cannot take false accusations that tarnish my good name.
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Fallensouls
10.23.2018 , 05:52 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Okay, you're going too far now. You falsely accuse me of adding lines to the quoted bits of your posts, when you yourself are constantly going back and editing your original posts, adding and changing stuff after I have replied. That is not okay. I could understand simple disagreement and spirited debate, but this goes too far. If you think the forum moderators cannot see edited messages and what was changed with each edit then you are sorely mistaken.

Because I can take disagreement, I can take spirited debates, but I cannot take false accusations that tarnish my good name.
And you change the very ideas i am arguing about as well. You didnt even pay attention to my point you took it as i was referring to them knowing the code. That is not what I was talking about at all. MY point was SATELE was sharing ideas with Marr and him with her, Violating the factions code and laws, they serve when they did that, and are not following the order they were from. That means they are outside of the faction they serve and are gray. You learn form a indidual who is not serving the Sith or the jedi properly and you think your faction would let you back in. Thats funny. You really are changing the things i say and the very ideas I am making arguments about. I really do believe you are trying to stop this thread because you dont want anyone to disagree with going back to the factions.

oh and FYI everyone knows that the sith and the jedi knows each others code. That whole argument about that on your part was strange.
Lead, Follow, or Get Out of my way, before you die.

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Ylliarus
10.23.2018 , 06:06 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallensouls View Post
And you change the very ideas i am arguing about as well. You didnt even pay attention to my point you took it as i was referring to them knowing the code. That is not what I was talking about at all. MY point was SATELE was sharing ideas with Marr and him with her, Violating the factions code and laws, they serve when they did that, and are not following the order they were from. That means they are outside of the faction they serve and are gray. You learn form a indidual who is not serving the Sith or the jedi properly and you think your faction would let you back in. Thats funny. You really are changing the things i say and the very ideas I am making arguments about. I really do believe you are trying to stop this thread because you dont want anyone to disagree with going back to the factions.

oh and FYI everyone knows that the sith and the jedi knows each others code. That whole argument about that on your part was strange.
I have reported your behaviour, because you keep falsely accusing me of adding lines to the quotes of your posts. You are editing your messages each time after I have posted my response with the original text of your posts quoted. When you edit your original post it is not automatically edited in the quoted parts as well. What you're doing is seriously not okay.

I really don't care about your thread, really, have your little thread and be happy. But your behaviour is seriously not okay and has been reported. The forum moderators can check the edit history of each post, so it will be easy for them to see your original post and the changes you made afterwards. I am done talking to you, not because I can't counter your arguments because I easily can, but because you're falsely accusing me and tarnishing my good name through it. Not to mention your insulting behaviour, because you have insulted my intelligence numerous times.

And resorting to personal attacks in a discussion is not okay and will be reported.
The Twi'lek Crusader
It is time for the Twi'lek species to receive new appearance customization options, because they have been neglected since launch.
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Fallensouls
10.23.2018 , 07:12 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
I have reported your behaviour, because you keep falsely accusing me of adding lines to the quotes of your posts. You are editing your messages each time after I have posted my response with the original text of your posts quoted. When you edit your original post it is not automatically edited in the quoted parts as well. What you're doing is seriously not okay.

I really don't care about your thread, really, have your little thread and be happy. But your behaviour is seriously not okay and has been reported. The forum moderators can check the edit history of each post, so it will be easy for them to see your original post and the changes you made afterwards. I am done talking to you, not because I can't counter your arguments because I easily can, but because you're falsely accusing me and tarnishing my good name through it. Not to mention your insulting behaviour, because you have insulted my intelligence numerous times.

And resorting to personal attacks in a discussion is not okay and will be reported.
Oh I am not attacking you, its what you are doing and I do not appreciate you trying to make me look bad I can manage that all on my own. But you sabotaging my thread is not very nice and you should be reported for that and several different threads because you only care about your agenda and you try to stop threads that infringe on what you believe.
No you are saying I said things either you are confused as to who really said it or you are trying to troll. Either way discussions with you are about your agenda and you dont really know the star wars cannon but act like you do. You post peoples opinions about star wars from YouTube videos and sell it like its a real thing . Now stop trying to derail my thread or I will report you.
Lead, Follow, or Get Out of my way, before you die.

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Ylliarus
10.24.2018 , 02:23 AM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallensouls View Post
Oh I am not attacking you, its what you are doing and I do not appreciate you trying to make me look bad I can manage that all on my own. But you sabotaging my thread is not very nice and you should be reported for that and several different threads because you only care about your agenda and you try to stop threads that infringe on what you believe.
No you are saying I said things either you are confused as to who really said it or you are trying to troll. Either way discussions with you are about your agenda and you dont really know the star wars cannon but act like you do. You post peoples opinions about star wars from YouTube videos and sell it like its a real thing . Now stop trying to derail my thread or I will report you.
Just so you know, you're the only person on these forums I can't have a normal discussion with. There are multiple people I had a spirited debate with but moments later we had a good laugh together, for example:

Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
Dare I say that for once we have...an alliance? I'll drink to that.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
Tis an alliance I actually would drink to! well played!
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
Round's on me, then. At the end of the day I think we're both passionate about wanting the game to be the best it can be and we both obviously are very emotionally invested in the lore and whatever world building or characters we have. We just disagree at points on how to get to that "best it can be." Which is fine, I don't hate you or anything. It's more like you enjoy a band that I don't like at all, or vice versa. It's all good.
IoNonSoEVero and I have disagreed passionately, but in the end we had some nice banter and acknowledged we had no problems with one another. The exact same goes with others on the forum, YOU are literally the only one who sees and treats me like your greatest enemy. You behave as if you are superior to me which you are not, you insult my intelligence constantly with your suggestions I am not that smart or don't know that much and generally behave really poorly. Go have a look at the other threads I post in, I'm having friendly pleasant discussions with people there with the occasional jokes and friendly banter. YOU are the single person on these entire forums that keeps quarreling with me.

So instead of pointing your finger at me for being the bad guy, take a good look in the mirror instead.

That's the last thing I had to say to you.

I wish you all the best.
The Twi'lek Crusader
It is time for the Twi'lek species to receive new appearance customization options, because they have been neglected since launch.
If you agree with this... do please click on my referral link!